Author Topic: Capsule for Falcon 1e?  (Read 8350 times)

Offline jak42

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Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« on: 10/04/2008 01:36 am »
So the specs on the Spacex Website list around 1 mt payload weight for the Falcon 1e. According to Astronautix, the Mercury capsule was around 1.3 mt. These two are tantalizingly close.

Given the advances in composites since the '60's, would it be possible to build a really simple crewed capsule of around 1 mt (minus astronaut weight) that could be put into LEO by the Falcon 1e? If so, for around $9 million launch cost (disregarding any savings if SpaceX makes the Falcon  recoverable), orbital passenger service could be offered.

The capsule could consist of TPS, lifesupport for a day, navigation, a para-wing for landing, and some really simple thrusters for deorbit and docking. The default mission profile would be to rendezvous and dock with a refuelable tug on orbit (lofted initially by a Falcon 9, Atlas or Delta) which could then maneuver the capsule to the space station or a Bigalow inflatable module. Joyriders might just stay on orbit and reenter, and any unexpected problem like lack of ability for the tug to pick up the capsule could result in the capsule returning to Earth. The current Falcon 1 could be used as a suborbital test vehicle, just as the Redstone was used for Mercury instead of the original Atlas. This would allow incremental  testing.

Would such a capsule be able to return to land? Water landings are kind of messy and need more infrastructure to support. Could it be made reliable enough without adding weight? According to Astronautix, the longest Mercury mission was 24 hrs. and, by the end, all systems on the capsule had  failed.

The possibility seems intriguing, but I'm surely missing something.

Offline toddbronco2

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #1 on: 10/04/2008 02:39 am »
No, I don't think you're missing anything.  It certainly seems possible to me. I don't think this has been explored for two reasons: 1) SpaceX is preoccupied with Dragon for their Falcon 9, and 2) until this last week the Falcon 1's had a propensity for failing!  Again, I bet it would be possible to use a lightweight crew capsule for your proposal, but the development of the capsule would probably be prohibitively expensive

Offline mrmandias

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #2 on: 10/04/2008 03:57 am »
Interesting. 

Part of the reason the capsule is going to cost you so much is that it needs to be piloted remotely.  If not, then your pilot is taking up one of the very limited passenger slots.

Offline khallow

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #3 on: 10/04/2008 04:43 am »
At a glance, the three big problems would be making the Falcon 1 reliable enough to put a person on it, putting in abort modes for each part of the flight, and adjusting the acceleration profile at the end of burnout of the two stages so that its within safe limits.
Karl Hallowell

Offline Kaputnik

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #4 on: 10/04/2008 10:21 am »
Does that 1.3t for Mercury include a LAS? I'd sure as heck want a LAS before I climbed on top of a Falcon!
Maybe a MOOSE and an EMU might get you within the mass limit...
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Offline Crispy

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #5 on: 10/04/2008 11:06 am »
There was a long thread on this subject recently...

Offline Jim

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #6 on: 10/04/2008 12:38 pm »
The default mission profile would be to rendezvous and dock with a refuelable tug on orbit (lofted initially by a Falcon 9, Atlas or Delta) which could then maneuver the capsule to the space station or a Bigalow inflatable module.

The possibility seems intriguing, but I'm surely missing something.

That is what you missed.  It takes two launches/vehicles to do the mission.  There isn't any benefit.

Also 24 hours is too short for the mission profile

There isn't enough difference between the 1 and 1E to allow incremental testing.  The Redstone equivalent would be to not use the 2nd stage

Offline lewis886

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #7 on: 10/04/2008 03:32 pm »
The default mission profile would be to rendezvous and dock with a refuelable tug on orbit (lofted initially by a Falcon 9, Atlas or Delta) which could then maneuver the capsule to the space station or a Bigalow inflatable module.

That is what you missed.  It takes two launches/vehicles to do the mission.  There isn't any benefit.

yeah... that was my first thought too.... you kinda had me till the refuelable tug idea that has to be sent up by another rocket.... well, if you already have to send up a falcon 9 for this... just send them up on a dragon... then you only need to send up a falcon 9, instead of a falcon 9 AND  falcon 1....

BUT... yeah, the idea of just a quick jaunt up into orbit in a tiny capsule, and then to come back down after a few orbits... that is a rather intriguing idea....  but i guess if someone is willing to spend $10-20 million for this (the falcon 1 plus however much the capsule is, probably pretty expensive), they might as well just spend a little more an go to the ISS for a week!  ;)

Offline Warren Platts

Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #8 on: 10/05/2008 01:34 am »
A $10 million USD rocket and a $1,000,000 capsule wouldn't be bad. Sort of like Billy Bob Thorton! What a blast!
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."--Leonardo Da Vinci

Offline pm1823

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #9 on: 10/05/2008 03:12 am »
Not a capsule, but a cheap fuel&cargo container, for the something like Parom.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #10 on: 10/05/2008 03:40 am »
A $10 million USD rocket and a $1,000,000 capsule wouldn't be bad. Sort of like Billy Bob Thorton! What a blast!

Anyone willing to pay $22 million to have a satellite refuelled?

Offline mr.columbus

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #11 on: 10/05/2008 08:50 am »
There was a long thread on this subject recently...

Yup, there was a long discussion on how to design the smallest crewed capsule here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=13815.msg299783#msg299783

Offline guru

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #12 on: 10/09/2008 03:07 pm »
If the Falcon 1E used a pressure-fed LH/LOX second stage, it could orbit a 3,000 lbm Mercury capsule.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #13 on: 10/09/2008 03:15 pm »
If the Falcon 1E used a pressure-fed LH/LOX second stage, it could orbit a 3,000 lbm Mercury capsule.

Has anyone ever made an LH stage that small? I think it would have some severe boil off problems...

And if they fueled the first stage with unobtanium it could out perform the Saturn V ;)
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Offline Namechange User

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #14 on: 10/09/2008 03:21 pm »
But what would really be the business case for a capsule this small even if technically feasible?
Enjoying viewing the forum a little better now by filtering certain users.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #15 on: 10/09/2008 04:34 pm »
But what would really be the business case for a capsule this small even if technically feasible?

Winning an arguement on the internet ;)

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Offline beb

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #16 on: 10/09/2008 04:54 pm »
But what would really be the business case for a capsule this small even if technically feasible?

Same as for Virgin Galactic -- $20 million to say you orbited the Earth. Plus you get to keep your capsule.

Offline Namechange User

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #17 on: 10/09/2008 05:23 pm »
But what would really be the business case for a capsule this small even if technically feasible?

Same as for Virgin Galactic -- $20 million to say you orbited the Earth. Plus you get to keep your capsule.

Not at all.  Completely different vehicles, business models and concept of operations.
Enjoying viewing the forum a little better now by filtering certain users.

Offline guru

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #18 on: 10/09/2008 08:55 pm »
If the Falcon 1E used a pressure-fed LH/LOX second stage, it could orbit a 3,000 lbm Mercury capsule.

Has anyone ever made an LH stage that small?

No.  Such a stage would need to be about 1/2 a big as the Chinese CZ-3 rocket's third stage - and it would need to use turbopumps.

Quote
I think it would have some severe boil off problems...

At the diameter considered (7.5 ft), it didn't boil off too quickly for the Chinese third stage.  A second stage wouldn't need to hold the propellant nearly as long.

Quote
  And if they fueled the first stage with unobtanium it could out perform the Saturn V ;)

Unobtainium, wow! Where can I get some of that?  Cause, you know, I can get liquid hydrogen literally next door.

Anyway.

The ability for a low cost vehicle like the Falcon 1e to carry a manned payload would be nice for SpaceX.  However, if it can only carry one person, then the cost per passenger would be less on a Falcon 9 +  Dragon .  As beb stated, the advantage of a one man capsule is that they might let you keep the capsule after the flight.
« Last Edit: 10/09/2008 09:05 pm by guru »

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Capsule for Falcon 1e?
« Reply #19 on: 10/09/2008 09:57 pm »
Are there any scientific experiments that need a person to set up or possibly bring back to Earth?

Six of the capsules could be used as escape capsules for the ISS or Bigelow space station.  A method of storing the capsules in space will be needed which includes a means of entering them.

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