NASA Mars mission Conops using Starship, derivatives and other hardware

[su27k]

There isn’t going to be NASA Mars Mission

Not with SpaceX, anyway
Elon Musk has made it clear that the initial model for his Mars Colonisation effort will be settlers, not visitors. A quick (less than three years, say) or indeed any return to Earth is not a necessary part of the deal.

Incorrect, Musk said multiple times that a return ticket is included:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1094796246613516289

Very dependent on volume, but I’m confident moving to Mars (return ticket is free) will one day cost less than $500k & maybe even below $100k. Low enough that most people in advanced economies could sell their home on Earth & move to Mars if they want.

And this makes sense when building a colony, because you don't want to force people to stay there if they don't want to, especially given how dangerous the environment is and how fragile the habitats are.

[Jim]

There isn’t going to be NASA Mars Mission

Huh? https://www.nasa.gov/specials/artemis/

With Artemis missions, NASA will land the first woman and first person of color on the Moon, using innovative technologies to explore more of the lunar surface than ever before. We will collaborate with commercial and international partners and establish the first long-term presence on the Moon. Then, we will use what we learn on and around the Moon to take the next giant leap: sending the first astronauts to Mars.

Do you see a budget line item for it?

[su27k]

There isn’t going to be NASA Mars Mission

Huh? https://www.nasa.gov/specials/artemis/

With Artemis missions, NASA will land the first woman and first person of color on the Moon, using innovative technologies to explore more of the lunar surface than ever before. We will collaborate with commercial and international partners and establish the first long-term presence on the Moon. Then, we will use what we learn on and around the Moon to take the next giant leap: sending the first astronauts to Mars.

Do you see a budget line item for it?

They'll add one once Starship is more mature and closer to be able to carry out a Mars landing, my guess would be after orbital refueling and simulated Mars re-entry maneuver in Earth's upper atmosphere are demonstrated.

[Jim]

There isn’t going to be NASA Mars Mission

Huh? https://www.nasa.gov/specials/artemis/

With Artemis missions, NASA will land the first woman and first person of color on the Moon, using innovative technologies to explore more of the lunar surface than ever before. We will collaborate with commercial and international partners and establish the first long-term presence on the Moon. Then, we will use what we learn on and around the Moon to take the next giant leap: sending the first astronauts to Mars.

Do you see a budget line item for it?

They'll add one once Starship is more mature and closer to be able to carry out a Mars landing, my guess would be after orbital refueling and simulated Mars re-entry maneuver in Earth's upper atmosphere are demonstrated.

Wrong. Anything using a Starship wouldn’t be a NASA Mars mission.  SpaceX will likely be going before NASA and NASA astronauts won’t be the first.

[su27k]

There isn’t going to be NASA Mars Mission

Huh? https://www.nasa.gov/specials/artemis/

With Artemis missions, NASA will land the first woman and first person of color on the Moon, using innovative technologies to explore more of the lunar surface than ever before. We will collaborate with commercial and international partners and establish the first long-term presence on the Moon. Then, we will use what we learn on and around the Moon to take the next giant leap: sending the first astronauts to Mars.

Do you see a budget line item for it?

They'll add one once Starship is more mature and closer to be able to carry out a Mars landing, my guess would be after orbital refueling and simulated Mars re-entry maneuver in Earth's upper atmosphere are demonstrated.

Wrong. Anything using a Starship wouldn’t be a NASA Mars mission.  SpaceX will likely be going before NASA and NASA astronauts won’t be the first.

Well Starship is already used in NASA lunar mission, I don't see why a Mars mission would be different.

It's certainly possible that SpaceX could go alone first, but I don't see that as a high probability, NASA and USG just couldn't pass this chance to be the first, boots on Mars has been the goal of the entire US space program for half a century.

[Jim]

, boots on Mars has been the goal of the entire US space program for half a century.

That would be wrong.

[Jim]

Well Starship is already used in NASA lunar mission, I don't see why a Mars mission would be different.

No role for NASA hardware on a Mars mission

[su27k]

Well Starship is already used in NASA lunar mission, I don't see why a Mars mission would be different.

No role for NASA hardware on a Mars mission

There're some roles in terms of surface hardware, see my original comment.

Also not included in my comments is the hardware for scientific investigations, that would be a major NASA contribution.

Edit: Think about it, this would be no different from CLD. What role does NASA hardware has in CLD? The station is built by companies, transportation is provided by companies, NASA's only contribution is astronauts and their experiments, this would be no different from a Mars mission entirely relying on SpaceX hardware.

[rakaydos]

Well Starship is already used in NASA lunar mission, I don't see why a Mars mission would be different.

No role for NASA hardware on a Mars mission

There're some roles in terms of surface hardware, see my original comment.

Also not included in my comments is the hardware for scientific investigations, that would be a major NASA contribution.

Edit: Think about it, this would be no different from CLD. What role does NASA hardware has in CLD? The station is built by companies, transportation is provided by companies, NASA's only contribution is astronauts and their experiments, this would be no different from a Mars mission entirely relying on SpaceX hardware.

Surface hardware doesnt usually involve large cash infusions to states historically opposed to goverment spending.

[Slarty1080]

Landing far apart: Maybe the ship with the LOX factory should have six articulated landing legs. After it fills itself up it can walk very slowly over to a newly-landed SS and fill it. Walking on six legs is much simpler than on four.

I can’t imagine that a 6 legged walking Starship would be a practical proposition on Mars due to the mass of Starship and the difficulty of the terrain.

One of the benefits of having so much landed mass available is that they can plan for not making their first return window.

I doubt that NASA would agree to any mission that required staying on Mars for an extra synod. IMO the unknowns and dangers would be just too great for them.

Wrong. Anything using a Starship wouldn’t be a NASA Mars mission.  SpaceX will likely be going before NASA and NASA astronauts won’t be the first.

That is an interesting point. I had always assumed that once the capability to send astronauts to Mars became available at a reasonable cost that Congress would come round to pressing for a crewed flight. If that’s not the case it would be a bit cringe worthy for NASA no? What would they say to the press when the first SpaceX astronauts set foot on Mars? Well done SpaceX, BTW we should have the latest version of SLS flying soon?

Can you expand on your thoughts in your previous posts concerning NASA’s potential plans and potential involvement or lack of it in the human exploration of Mars?

[DanClemmensen]

Landing far apart: Maybe the ship with the LOX factory should have six articulated landing legs. After it fills itself up it can walk very slowly over to a newly-landed SS and fill it. Walking on six legs is much simpler than on four.

I can’t imagine that a 6 legged walking Starship would be a practical proposition on Mars due to the mass of Starship and the difficulty of the terrain.

If a Starship can land on legs, then the mass is clearly not the constraint. If an area is smooth enough for landing, it's smooth enough for careful movement. Six-legged movement is done by first carefully and slowly raising set A of three legs while verifying that set B is stably bearing the weight. Then swing set A about one meter and slowly lower them until they are bearing the weight. now raise set B and slowly swing set A to re-center the mass. Swing set B, lower it, and repeat. One step every ten seconds or so. One kilometer every 10,000 seconds. change direction by lowering all legs and re-assigning the appropriate legs to set A and set B. Basically, every step is a very slow, very controlled three-legged "landing" with almost no dynamic forces. If the LOX ship starts further away from the crewed ship, start by hopping the LOX ship to within one kilometer before starting the walk.

[Robotbeat]

No. You’re not going to have a walking Starship.

[dglow]

Well Starship is already used in NASA lunar mission, I don't see why a Mars mission would be different.

No role for NASA hardware on a Mars mission

Nothing? Even from SMD?

[M.E.T.]

No. You’re not going to have a walking Starship.

 

Now I have an image of Baba Yaga’s hut in my mind.

[Jim]

Well Starship is already used in NASA lunar mission, I don't see why a Mars mission would be different.

No role for NASA hardware on a Mars mission

Nothing? Even from SMD?

I was referring to SLS/Orion

[DanClemmensen]

No. You’re not going to have a walking Starship.

A previous post stated that is is unsafe to land the crewed Mars ship too near a pre-positioned LOX factory. I proposed a (perhaps infeasible) solution. You dismissed it without analysis. Please propose an alternative.

[Vultur]

Should we expect Starship propulsive landing accuracy to be poor? F9 booster has very high landing accuracy now. Does that depend on GPS?

[su27k]

Notes by a user in /r/SpaceXLounge about Musk's talk today at SSG & BPA. 
 

Should land 2 or 3 Starships on Mars first, without people, hopefully with NASA support and other countries

   

Basically he was asked what is the plan for initial human Mars mission, he said he's not sure, 2 to 3 unmanned landing first, then for human landings it's possible that it would be a cooperation with NASA or even international partners.

[kevinof]

Should we expect Starship propulsive landing accuracy to be poor? F9 booster has very high landing accuracy now. Does that depend on GPS?

The F9 aims for a predetermined GPS spot and lands there, and expects either the drone ship or the landing pad to be at the same location.

No reason to suspect the Earth based landings won’t be the same (if it works then leave it the heck alone). For mars who knows?  I suspect it won’t be able to do the Perseverance trick of using cameras in the final landing phase as it can’t hover/slow down and pick a spot.

[DreamyPickle]

NASA would probably ask that crew is launched on Orion and transfers to Starship via the Gateway.