Quote from: dustinthewind on 03/26/2015 06:41 pmI still think we can violate newtons 3rd law in a way but in another way it is not violated because the propulsion device projects radiation out one end. This looks like radiation propulsion but by sticking a dielectric between the two current loops we can change the speed of light making the two current loops closer or lowering the frequency needed while also getting near field effects? What this does for the radiation projected I'm not exactly sure but I would assume it should intensify. This is assuming none of the current loops have constant current but are both changing in time and out of phase pi/2 (see figure EM Propulsion 2.png). I guess the idea was if there was something similar going on inside the radiation cavity though I can't quite say that there is. There is also the issue of the idea that radiation projected is conserving momentum but this is inside a cavity. (see figure EM Propulsion 3.png)Edit: sorry, changed pi/4 to pi/2There are many things to discuss here.Of course the electric field and magnetic fields are two interrelated aspects of a single object: the electromagnetic field tensor in 3D+1=4 spacetime. But if your loops and images are to be interpreted literally only in terms of electric current loops, please notice that your image then could be interpreted as saying that only TE (transverse electric) modes would produce the effect you are seeking, because only TE modes have the electric field in the azimuthal (circumferential) direction. But notice that NASA Eagleworks is currently successfully testing in a vacuum TM modes (and actually I understand they have a preference for TM modes), for which the magnetic field B has a component only in the azimuthal (circumferential) direction while the electric field E has components perpendicular to the magnetic B field. The electric field has zero component in the circumferential direction for TM modes.
I still think we can violate newtons 3rd law in a way but in another way it is not violated because the propulsion device projects radiation out one end. This looks like radiation propulsion but by sticking a dielectric between the two current loops we can change the speed of light making the two current loops closer or lowering the frequency needed while also getting near field effects? What this does for the radiation projected I'm not exactly sure but I would assume it should intensify. This is assuming none of the current loops have constant current but are both changing in time and out of phase pi/2 (see figure EM Propulsion 2.png). I guess the idea was if there was something similar going on inside the radiation cavity though I can't quite say that there is. There is also the issue of the idea that radiation projected is conserving momentum but this is inside a cavity. (see figure EM Propulsion 3.png)Edit: sorry, changed pi/4 to pi/2
Hopefully the Galinstan doesn't corrode the electrical contacts.
Is there any news about the independent verification and validation? It's very hard to find anything reliable on the web
The current plan is to support an IV&V test campaign at the Glenn Research Center (GRC) using their low thrust torsion pendulum followed by a repeat campaign at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) using their low thrust torsion pendulum. The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory has also expressed an interest in performing a Cavendish Balance style test with the IV&V shipset.
Quote from: Mulletron on 03/27/2015 08:58 am Hopefully the Galinstan doesn't corrode the electrical contacts. "http://www5vip.inl.gov/technicalpublications/documents/3314568.pdf" says Galinstan pits copper. The Wikipedia page on Galinstan says it corrodes aluminum."http://www.rgmd.com/msds/msds.pdf" says it weakens aluminum, and lists a number of other metals that it tends to alloy with, including gold and silver.
On the way is a thicker sheet of 0.043" copper which will be cut to a 6.75" diameter disc. 3 holes will be drilled at 120 degrees, equally spaced. The difference is that, over these holes, I will permanently solder 3, steel nuts and washers to the outside face. Then any dielectric disc will be bolted through from the inside into these nuts. The mounting bolts will be countersunk into the dielectric, in order to provide a smooth interface. The ends of the nuts (on the outside) will be trimmed and covered with conducting copper tape.Time to build.
Just an attempt to see it from another angle or perspective...So far, the focus of the discussion has been concentrated on the small and big plate of the frustum for receiving the presumed forces generated by the electromagnetic fields, but what is that wasn't the case?What if the internally generated magnetic field forces interact with the sidewalls instead of the front/back ends?Because of the angled sides, the internal forces on the sides would be diverted towards the front plate.Compare it to squeezing a soap cone: if a circular force is applied from the outside it will move toward the large plate, however if a force is applied from the inside, it will move towards the smaller plate....(just like Shawyer's rotating test rig)It would also possibly explain to why there is no force detected in a cylindrical cavity.I have not yet seen any reasoning (maybe i missed it) to why we're all assuming that forces are generated on the front/back end plates - as currently been discussed - and not on the sides walls?
There appears to be a clear dependency between thrust magnitude and the presence of some sort of dielectric RFresonator in the thrust chamber. The geometry, location, and material properties of this resonator must be evaluated using numerous COMSOL® iterations to arrive at a viable thruster solution. We performed some very early evaluations without the dielectric resonator (TE012 mode at 2168 MHz, with power levels up to ~30 watts) and measured no significant net thrust.
...@frobnicat: does this experiment (NASA reporting no experimental thrust for TE012 without a dielectric, but reporting thrust force with a dielectric) nullify mechanistic theories such as the one you recently proposed? (or did I miss something that salvages your mechanistic conjecture for this case?)Of course, electromagnetic artifact explanations that rely on Poynting's vector are still viable, if somebody can come up with such an artifact explanation.
....The position of LDS reading seems "permanently" changed by a "thrust" pulse. This hints at a remanence. Magnetic ? Maybe. From purely thermal mechanistic hypothesis this looks like permanent plastic deformation or hysteresis remanence. The only other place I see indication for a thrust "in the wrong direction" is in this post where there is question of partial melting of nylon bolts... Again, if some experiment go up to melting, then quite a lot could actually be operating around glass transition and some of them near melting. From this site : we see here that between around 50°C and 100°C the drop in rigidity is huge, this is much lower than the actual melting (220°C). Glass transition is reversible (I think) but may show hysteresis (no ?). How would a nylon bolt under stress (ie. tensioned) behave in length when cycling around the glass transition, would it loosen the fixed dielectric then hold it tight again (against springy slightly warped end PCB plate, we are talking µm...) ? Don't throw thermal mechanistic through the window. Experimental data can put it to the ground, but through the stairway, one downstep at a time. This post will inevitably raise more questions and objections, this is just ongoing speculations, I won't have time to really support all that in the coming days.
Quote from: Damon Hill on 03/23/2015 05:59 amhttp://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a564120.pdf?"Demonstration of a wingless electromagnetic air vehicle"Pretty much proof-of-concept, goes into lots more detail than I have endurance to read.Damon:Good grief man, this is a great find!! And an R&D activity I didn't even know was going on. Now to figure out what is conventional plasma physics and what might be extended EM-Drive physics hiding in this University of Florida paper.Thanks again, Best, Paul M.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a564120.pdf?"Demonstration of a wingless electromagnetic air vehicle"Pretty much proof-of-concept, goes into lots more detail than I have endurance to read.
Quote from: frobnicat on 03/29/2015 10:13 am......What kind of hysteresis do you have in mind ? Due to the extremely high frequency (GHz) of the time-dependence of the applied electromagnetic field responsible for heating? Or due to the extremely slow (in comparison) cycling of heating and cooling due to every experiment?
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....Few surprising facts and data points for this set of hypothesis :- That was known from beginning (and always was a difficulty for purely thermal mechanistic) : for some modes there is "no significant net thrust" without dielectric while same mode with dielectric exhibits thrust. This is known for TE012. The absence of thrust without dielectric was for "some very early evaluations", the experimental plot is not published. A TE012 mode with dielectric and thrust is reported in Brady's report.....
Consideration of the dynamic fields in the ¼ wave resonance tube shows that there is always a net Poynting vector meaning that the RF launcher tube assembly with dielectric cylinder common to both the slotted and smooth test articles is potentially a Q-thruster where the pillbox is simply a matching network.
Since the components of the electric field E parallel to a copper surface (either the wall or the bases) must be zero at the surface, the Poynting vector component perpendicular to a copper surface (either the wall or the bases) must be zero at the copper surface (either the wall or the bases) .Let me repeat that: the Poynting vector component perpendicular to the small and the big bases of the truncated cone must be zero at those surfaces (must be zero at the small base and must be zero at the big base).For a Transverse Magnetic (TM) mode the Poynting vector parallel to the surface doesn't have to be zero. Actually, as the images show, in some cases the maximum Poynting vector occurs at the wall for a TM mode, and for a TM mode the Poynting vector at the wall must be parallel to the wall.On the other hand, for Transverse Electric (TE) modes both components of the Poynting vector (parallel to the wall and perpendicular to the wall) must be zero at the copper surfaces (either the wall or the bases) . For TE modes the Poynting vector is zero at all copper surfaces: zero at the walls and zero at both of the truncated cone bases.
Examination of the Poynting vector radial component shows that for this particular mode (TE012) without a dielectric, the Poynting's vector is self-cancelling and hence it is not a surprise that NASA measured no thrust force for this TE012 mode without a dielectric, since according to NASA Eagleworks' own theory (relying on Poynting's vector as per Dr. White's papers) there should not be a thrust force without a dielectric for mode TE012 because Poynting's vector self-cancels for this mode. ....However, for other modes (TM311 for example), Poynting's vector is not self-cancelling, but it is pointed towards the small base. This justifies the fact that Shawyer communicates that he is presently not using a dielectric, since a dielectric does not appear necessary for certain modes.
Using finite element numerical method to numerical analyse the classical Maxwell equation of electric field of the idealised conical resonator, to obtain the model and practical of the distribution of the electric field of the cavity under 1000W. By analyse the properties under different modes and the different properties. Calculation show that under the four modes, TE011, TE012, TE111 and TM011, the quality factor of TE012 is highest and with highest thrust, followed by TE011. With the Small End of the cavity unchanged, the quality factor and thrust decrease with the increase in the Large End
Mulletron: I'm not too aware of the electrical properties of Galinstan and I might just be misinterpreting your wording, but if the bottom of the channel that the Galinstan is contained in is rough enough to have 'significant' height variance couldn't this cause possible issues for the cleanliness of your signal through it? A bit like using a potentiometer as a wire as the changing depth of the Galinstan would thus result in changing resistance over its length. So as your contact in the Galinstan moved across the channel, the changing resistance would add noise to it. I don't know how rough the surface is or if the noise in question is outside the realm of your tolerances, but I figured I should mention it.Edit: It also occurs to me, that if you do want that roughness on the bottom as you mentioned, you should be able to use some filters on the rig to clean up the noise if you need to.
The Galinstan channel side walls and bottom are smooth.
A bit like using a potentiometer as a wire as the changing depth of the Galinstan would thus result in changing resistance over its length. So as your contact in the Galinstan moved across the channel, the changing resistance would add noise to it.