Author Topic: Martian Blimp  (Read 22194 times)

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5974
  • Liked: 1312
  • Likes Given: 8
Martian Blimp
« on: 04/27/2011 12:10 am »
Could a blimp be used as a one-way descent vehicle for a robotic Mars mission?

Since CO2 isn't particularly reactive with it, let's assume H2 as our lifting gas.

So the idea is to use the blimp to survey the Martian surface, but to inflate on the way down from orbit, to save you the weight of a heatshield.

Could the larger surface-to-weight ratio of a blimp be suitable for aerobraking without suffering the destructive heating of usual blunt-body atmospheric entry?

I'd read that graphene is particularly impermeable against hydrogen, so let's imagine that our blimp envelope is made of graphene or some graphene-impregnated polymer.

What would be the best/calmest altitude at which to cruise, in order to avoid turbulence and keep from crashing?

What is a reasonable mission duration for a blimp?
What is a reasonable blimp size and blimp payload?

Offline Sparky

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 378
  • Connecticut
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #1 on: 04/27/2011 02:32 am »
I've seen proposals for a Martian balloon of that sort. Never a blimp though.

The advantage I suppose would be steerability. On the other hand, Mars is so big and unexplored that being blown in any direction would discover new and scientifically interesting places. Also, less worry about power and lifting capacity needs to be spent on propulsion, control and navigation.

Offline neilh

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2365
  • Pasadena, CA
  • Liked: 46
  • Likes Given: 149
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #2 on: 04/27/2011 03:07 am »
Some related discussion about inflatable reentry vehicles here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=20700.15
Someone is wrong on the Internet.
http://xkcd.com/386/

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5974
  • Liked: 1312
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #3 on: 04/27/2011 04:18 am »
Hi, thanks, yes I remember that discussion - I made some comments somewhere on page 4 of it.

So the ballute idea has not only been proposed but even tested (IRDE experiment). So then taking that idea further, instead of using the ballute, you use a blimp which has a greater volume-to-weight ratio, or cross-section-area-to-weight ratio, in order to create maximum drag during re-entry.

Later on, as you descent into thicker atmosphere, you gradually transition to normal blimp flight. I should mention that if your envelope is sufficiently elastic, the blimp would be far larger initially at vacuum-like pressures, but shrink to a smaller and more manageable size once it's down in the thicker atmosphere where there's more pressure.

This type of re-entry could be tested here on Earth, and suitably modified for the conditions specific to Mars.

The engineering of the envelope would be challenging, but probably doable.


Offline Ronsmytheiii

  • Moderator
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23394
  • Liked: 1879
  • Likes Given: 1023
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #4 on: 04/27/2011 04:38 am »
the problem is that the martian atmosphere is much less dense than on Earth, and therefore would require much larger bodies to generate lift than on Earth to the point of impracticality. 

Of course the ultimate lift capability for a lighter than air machine is that of a vacuum (ie it does not have any practical mass per volume so it generates more lift theoretically than any gas equivalent)  The problem is, the structural vessel needed to hold the vacuum is usually too heavy in the Earth's high pressure atmosphere/ gravity well.  Maybe it would be more practical for the lower pressure/ weaker gravity well of MArs?
« Last Edit: 04/27/2011 04:46 am by Ronsmytheiii »

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5974
  • Liked: 1312
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #5 on: 04/27/2011 04:45 am »
I remember Midoshi from the New Mars forum posting some off-the-cuff calculations which showed it wouldn't be that bad. Remember, you've got lower gravity to fight, and CO2 mass relative to H2 is better than air mass relative to helium. So it should be doable.

Vacuum lift is impractical, since it requires a rigid structure. Plus H2 mass isn't all that great - the main thing you have to worry about is leakage.

I was just wondering whether the blimp thing could be sent there on Falcon Heavy.
« Last Edit: 04/27/2011 04:46 am by sanman »

Offline douglas100

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2177
  • Liked: 227
  • Likes Given: 105
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #6 on: 04/27/2011 07:54 am »
Just one point: Mars' lower gravity gives no lift advantage to a balloon or airship. Although the payload and vehicle will weigh one third of Earth values, the weight of Martian air displaced will also be one third of Earth value. Therefore the lift will be one third of Earth value. So a balloon which can lift (say) 100kg on Earth ends up lifting the same mass on Mars (but of course one third the weight) as on Earth. But this is only true under the same conditions of temperature, pressure and atmospheric composition.

CO2 has a molecular weight roughly one third more than oxygen or nitrogen. So for the same conditions of temperature and pressure, Martian air will provide about a third more lift than terrestrial air, as you correctly pointed out.
Douglas Clark

Offline indaco1

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 283
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 37
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #7 on: 04/27/2011 11:17 am »
Regarding destination:

Venus first. 

Mars can be explored in many other ways, but Venus really requires balloons.

I don't know why it's so neglected ..... it's the only real twin of Earth we know.


Regarding the way to do it:

What's wrong with a normal thermal shield for reentry and inflate the balloon once subsonic?

Weigh reduction for a traditional thermal shield is ridiculus compared to developement costs and risks. 

Furthermore, a balloon optimized for atmospheric fly will have much better performances (max altitude, lift/weight etc.) than one so robust to withstand reentry, even if was workable.
« Last Edit: 04/27/2011 11:46 am by indaco1 »
Non-native English speaker and non-expert, be patient.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37440
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21450
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #8 on: 04/27/2011 11:22 am »

I was just wondering whether the blimp thing could be sent there on Falcon Heavy.

Why just FH?!!!!!!!!!

Offline Nomadd

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8839
  • Lower 48
  • Liked: 60430
  • Likes Given: 1304
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #9 on: 04/27/2011 11:24 am »
 I don't think you could enter the atmosphere with a blimp. With that large a surface to mass ratio I doubt if it would be possible to hit at the angle you'd need not to bounce off or burn up.
« Last Edit: 04/27/2011 11:25 am by Nomadd »
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline clongton

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12053
  • Connecticut
    • Direct Launcher
  • Liked: 7347
  • Likes Given: 3749
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #10 on: 04/27/2011 11:31 am »
So the idea is to use the blimp to survey the Martian surface, but to inflate on the way down from orbit, to save you the weight of a heatshield.

Could the larger surface-to-weight ratio of a blimp be suitable for aerobraking without suffering the destructive heating of usual blunt-body atmospheric entry?

It would be entering the Martian atmosphere at interplanetary speed and will need to slow down.
There are only 2 ways to do that:

1. A good heat shield
2. Propulsive breaking to get rid of *all* the transit momentum before atmospheric interface, to allow the blimp to just float down. That would take a lot of propellant which would likely be the vast majority of the probe's mass. This is a non-starter.

Still going to need a heat shield.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline RanulfC

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4595
  • Heus tu Omnis! Vigilate Hoc!
  • Liked: 900
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #11 on: 04/27/2011 09:34 pm »
We actually had and tested a similar idea on Earth:
The "FIRST" reentry glider concept.

[url]http://www.jamesoberg.com/112003irv_his.html]http://www.astronautix.com/craft/firlider.htm[url]
[url]http://www.jamesoberg.com/112003irv_his.html


The initial idea was to use an inflatable structure for meteorite and other orbital measurments that required a large surface area but had to be light-weight. Engineers soon realized that the same requirements could ease reentry conditions.

So they designed and built a test model of tough-fiberglass fabrics with a silicon polymer "heat-sheild" and wind tunnel tested it. It worked, with narry a flutter even to speeds around Mach-5 but more was planned.

They mounted a model on an Aerobee sounding rocket and plunged the test article into the atmosphere at Mach-6. The test didn't go quite as planned.

The glider flipper over on it's back when released, a nose cone seperation mechanism didn't function properly and the glider ended up dragging the still attached nose-cone along with it.

Then, amazingly the glider righted itself and began to fly. It worked! Shortly after though, (probably due to the drag from the attached nose cone) one of the three wing supporting booms collapsed and the glider fell to the desert floor.

Interest in wings, and inflatable structure in space wained soon after and most everyone moved on to other projects. However the idea kept surfacing in such things as inflatable space stations, Moon or Mars bases and even space rescue vehicles.

Studies were even done with the idea of using flexible "winged" hypersonic wave-rider vehicles that use the atmospheres of Venus, Mars and Earth along with interplanetary speeds to make course adjustments during planetary encounters. Surpisingly the thermal and force loads were found to be managable given some active cooling in some places.
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~portwin/ASTRA/Waverider/waverider.html
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~portwin/ASTRA/Waverider/flexwings.html

Of course this isn't what most people THINK of when one says "blimp" but it IS in fact an inflated structure like a blimp and would perform in a similar manner once it had entered and slowed down into an atmosphere.

Size is the major issue on Mars due to the thinner atmosphere, Venus on the other hand (Titan also and possibly the Gas Giant planets though it's actually MUCH harder to "float" as a "Lighter-Than-Air" vehicle in an atmosphere composed of Helium and Hydrogen :) ) is pretty much tailor made for LTA exploration.
(It helps a lot that regular "Earth-normal" air is a lifting gas with 60% of the lift of Helium on Earth. But that's actually another subject.... And thread ;) )

Aerobraking into Mars orbit with a large-light structure from interplanetary transfer speeds would take a while, but not as long as one would think since it WOULD be "large-and-light" even compared to how many Mars probes do it today using their solar panels. (Days to hours compared to weeks now)

Amussingly when discussing this concept of aerobraking for Mars or Venus on the old "newmars" forums we came to the conclusion that an aerodynamic shape would be preferable over a more space efficent "sphere" type balloon. Why?

We called it the "Hamster-Ball" effect... I'll let it go at that :)

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5974
  • Liked: 1312
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #12 on: 04/28/2011 01:25 pm »
Regarding the skipping-stone effect and bouncing off the Martian atmosphere at interplanetary speeds, wouldn't multiple stone-skips then help to break up the thermal and mechanical loads, to make re-entry easier?

I realize that you'd have to get your trajectory just right, in order to avoid bouncing out of the Martian gravity well, but if you could avoid that, then wouldn't multiple stone-skips be better?

Fine, it's taking you longer to descend/aerobrake, but wouldn't atmospheric entry be much gentler?

Offline RanulfC

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4595
  • Heus tu Omnis! Vigilate Hoc!
  • Liked: 900
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #13 on: 04/28/2011 02:52 pm »
Regarding the skipping-stone effect and bouncing off the Martian atmosphere at interplanetary speeds, wouldn't multiple stone-skips then help to break up the thermal and mechanical loads, to make re-entry easier?

I realize that you'd have to get your trajectory just right, in order to avoid bouncing out of the Martian gravity well, but if you could avoid that, then wouldn't multiple stone-skips be better?

Fine, it's taking you longer to descend/aerobrake, but wouldn't atmospheric entry be much gentler?
Well, yes that was the point I was making. However, there are reasons why you wouldn't want to take TOO long slowing down :)

The bigger the reentry (or aerobraking surface) the more spread out the heat flux is. The lighter the entry body the higher up and thinner the atmosphere is where significant drag starts to appear.

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5974
  • Liked: 1312
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #14 on: 04/29/2011 03:52 am »
Gee, I think this idea of very slow atmospheric entry should be tested out for Earth atmospheric entry then, since Earth's atmosphere is much thicker than Mars'.

Offline alexterrell

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1747
  • Germany
  • Liked: 184
  • Likes Given: 107
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #15 on: 04/29/2011 07:53 am »

I was just wondering whether the blimp thing could be sent there on Falcon Heavy.

Why just FH?!!!!!!!!!
$$$$$$$$ ?

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5974
  • Liked: 1312
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #16 on: 04/29/2011 01:38 pm »
Yeah, and plus a deflated blimp would likely be pretty large in both mass and volume

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37440
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21450
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #17 on: 04/29/2011 02:19 pm »

I was just wondering whether the blimp thing could be sent there on Falcon Heavy.

Why just FH?!!!!!!!!!
$$$$$$$$ ?


Not a given

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10974
  • Delta-t is an important metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 1257
  • Likes Given: 724
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #18 on: 04/29/2011 02:33 pm »
Regarding destination:

Venus first. 

Mars can be explored in many other ways, but Venus really requires balloons. ...

Hey. Try this:  Montgolfier balloons:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=24962.0

Rousing discussion going on there....
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline RanulfC

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4595
  • Heus tu Omnis! Vigilate Hoc!
  • Liked: 900
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #19 on: 05/02/2011 08:07 pm »
Yeah, and plus a deflated blimp would likely be pretty large in both mass and volume
OoooooooKaaaaayyyyy.... Did you ... Eh never mind...

No, to both. A "deflated" blimp would be very compact for it's mass as ALL "inflatable" structures are. The Goodyear Blimp envelope is 192ft long and 59.5ft wide and when deflated it folds to fit onto a large pallet, (@48"x48" by about 4 to 6 feet high) and mass' around 500lbs.

That same envelop can "haul" a total gross mass with helium of around 12,840lbs on Earth. (Which btw does NOT include the mass of the gondola which comes in around 6000 to 8000lbs depending on the installed engines)

You could make the envelope of a lighter material also and if you actually "vacuum" packed it reduce it even more for sending to someplace like Mars or Venus. On Mars you would lose a LOT of lift ability so it IS actually a "marginal" case for using LTA vehicles, on the other hand on Venus, using Oxy/Nitrogen for "lift" it would carry around 7700lbs plus another 6-8,000lbs since it wouldn't need the gondola. In addition the "crew" (or equipment carried) could be packed within the volume of the envelope which gives over 200,000 square feet of space :)

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5974
  • Liked: 1312
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #20 on: 05/03/2011 01:33 am »
Okay, cool, and plus on Venus you could probably use some photoeletric skin to harvest all the solar energy you'd need. Might be a better way to study the Venusian surface and morphology to help answer more questions about the planet. It seems that we know far less about Venus than we do about Mars.

Offline RanulfC

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4595
  • Heus tu Omnis! Vigilate Hoc!
  • Liked: 900
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #21 on: 05/05/2011 09:06 pm »
Okay, cool, and plus on Venus you could probably use some photoeletric skin to harvest all the solar energy you'd need. Might be a better way to study the Venusian surface and morphology to help answer more questions about the planet. It seems that we know far less about Venus than we do about Mars.
I think it's been mentioned before but the rather "neat" thing about a Venus LTA station or probe is that by using a set of double-sided solar panels you actually get more power :) The cloud layer reflects so much energy the cells get almost as much juice pointing at them as the ones do that are actually using direct sunlight :)

And yes, VERY much so Mars has always seemed to hold the larger fascination which leaves both Venus and Mercury as the "almost-was" planets. Thankfully they have been getting more attention of late but I'd like to see a LOT more interest. Venus has a huge number of questions that need to be looked into and frankly could use some intensive study from close up inside the atmosphere...

Now, convincing any of the major space agencies on the other hand, THAT'S a problem :)

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5974
  • Liked: 1312
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #22 on: 05/10/2011 08:16 pm »
Here's an interesting new platform being developed, which might one day be adapted for Martian travel:

http://inhabitat.com/amazing-aeros-pelican-airships-set-to-fly-by-2013/

This could one day be the mainstay of all Martian air travel.
« Last Edit: 05/10/2011 08:16 pm by sanman »

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5974
  • Liked: 1312
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #23 on: 05/11/2011 07:23 pm »
Another thing - assuming a classical blimp in a purely flexible inflated envelope - how fast could such a blimp travel in the Martian atmosphere?

Given that Martian atmospheric pressure is less than 1% of an Earth atmosphere, then a Goodyear-sized blimp would probably be able to travel pretty rapidly, wouldn't it?

Offline RanulfC

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4595
  • Heus tu Omnis! Vigilate Hoc!
  • Liked: 900
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #24 on: 05/11/2011 08:59 pm »
The pressure is the problem actually... Look at the size needed to carry a useful payload on Mars. Here on Earth the G-blimp carries around several thousand pounds of gondola and engines with about 13,000lbs of "spare" lift. On Mars with 1/100th of the Atmospheric pressure the same size envelope would have a difficult time lifting it's own mass let alone a lot of cargo.

And the Pelican also relies on "dynamic" lift which means wings and body sized to provide lift in the Martian atmosphere AND powerful enough engines to propell the same.

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5974
  • Liked: 1312
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #25 on: 05/12/2011 06:22 pm »
Hi,

Yeah, I didn't mean to confuse the 2 posts - that's why in the 2nd post I asked about a classical blimp.

You keep mentioning only the lower Martian air pressure, while ignoring the lower gravity, and the greater relative density of displaced Martian CO2 compared to H2, which could be used as a lifting gas.

I remember having a detailed discussion on this while on the NewMars forum, before it went offline, and we found that a Martian balloon or blimp was quite doable.

Here's a quick java applet I found (at the bottom of the page)

http://quest.nasa.gov/aero/planetary/atmospheric/balloon.html

It uses Helium, but H2 should generate slightly better lift (not much better, tho)

Arguably, wheeled/tracked vehicles would be a much more efficient mode of transport, terrain-permitting. But sometimes surface terrain may be too difficult.

Offline RanulfC

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4595
  • Heus tu Omnis! Vigilate Hoc!
  • Liked: 900
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #26 on: 05/12/2011 06:44 pm »
You keep mentioning only the lower Martian air pressure, while ignoring the lower gravity, and the greater relative density of displaced Martian CO2 compared to H2, which could be used as a lifting gas.

I remember having a detailed discussion on this while on the NewMars forum, before it went offline, and we found that a Martian balloon or blimp was quite doable.

Here's a quick java applet I found (at the bottom of the page)

http://quest.nasa.gov/aero/planetary/atmospheric/balloon.html

It uses Helium, but H2 should generate slightly better lift (not much better, tho)

Arguably, wheeled/tracked vehicles would be a much more efficient mode of transport, terrain-permitting. But sometimes surface terrain may be too difficult.
Sorry I didn't meant to sound as though it wouldn't "work" at all, just that it's more difficult overall for a "classic" blimp or dirigable. In part that's why something like the Pelican or other "aerodynamic" models would have to be used in conjunction with LTA-lift. (Now that I re-read my post it DOES look like I'm saying it won't work... Sorry about that I was trying to point out that you end up NEEDING both rather than one or the other!) The static lift of the LTA allows lower landing speeds which is a good thing as well as less power required for propulsion for aerodynamic flight.

Yes the Co2 atmosphere and lower gravity help, but I still suspect that flying on Mars is going to be a rare thing and people are going to have to get used to driving, walking, or taking a train ;)

Now Venus on the other hand..... :)

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 868
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 191
  • Likes Given: 625
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #27 on: 05/13/2011 08:54 am »
You keep mentioning only the lower Martian air pressure, while ignoring the lower gravity, and the greater relative density of displaced Martian CO2 compared to H2, which could be used as a lifting gas.

I remember having a detailed discussion on this while on the NewMars forum, before it went offline, and we found that a Martian balloon or blimp was quite doable.

Here's a quick java applet I found (at the bottom of the page)

http://quest.nasa.gov/aero/planetary/atmospheric/balloon.html

It uses Helium, but H2 should generate slightly better lift (not much better, tho)

Arguably, wheeled/tracked vehicles would be a much more efficient mode of transport, terrain-permitting. But sometimes surface terrain may be too difficult.
Sorry I didn't meant to sound as though it wouldn't "work" at all, just that it's more difficult overall for a "classic" blimp or dirigable. In part that's why something like the Pelican or other "aerodynamic" models would have to be used in conjunction with LTA-lift. (Now that I re-read my post it DOES look like I'm saying it won't work... Sorry about that I was trying to point out that you end up NEEDING both rather than one or the other!) The static lift of the LTA allows lower landing speeds which is a good thing as well as less power required for propulsion for aerodynamic flight.

Yes the Co2 atmosphere and lower gravity help, but I still suspect that flying on Mars is going to be a rare thing and people are going to have to get used to driving, walking, or taking a train ;)

Now Venus on the other hand..... :)

Randy

Speaking of trains........   No, better not.  OT.

Mick.

Offline RanulfC

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4595
  • Heus tu Omnis! Vigilate Hoc!
  • Liked: 900
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #28 on: 05/17/2011 01:19 pm »
Speaking of trains........   No, better not.  OT.

Mick.

No, no, go ahead... after all how often does a thread around here STAY on-topic for any great length of time ;)

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10974
  • Delta-t is an important metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 1257
  • Likes Given: 724
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #29 on: 05/17/2011 02:41 pm »
Trains? I don't get it.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline RanulfC

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4595
  • Heus tu Omnis! Vigilate Hoc!
  • Liked: 900
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #30 on: 05/17/2011 09:13 pm »
Trains? I don't get it.
Me neither... which is why I asked :)

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline 93143

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
  • Liked: 312
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #31 on: 05/17/2011 09:36 pm »
And yes, VERY much so Mars has always seemed to hold the larger fascination which leaves both Venus and Mercury as the "almost-was" planets. Thankfully they have been getting more attention of late but I'd like to see a LOT more interest. Venus has a huge number of questions that need to be looked into and frankly could use some intensive study from close up inside the atmosphere...

Venus is scary.  On top of the extreme temperature and the acid clouds, it's essentially a miniature gas giant...

(Not that I disagree with you.  But still...  you can stand on Mars.)
« Last Edit: 05/17/2011 09:39 pm by 93143 »

Offline clongton

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12053
  • Connecticut
    • Direct Launcher
  • Liked: 7347
  • Likes Given: 3749
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #32 on: 05/17/2011 10:35 pm »
And yes, VERY much so Mars has always seemed to hold the larger fascination which leaves both Venus and Mercury as the "almost-was" planets. Thankfully they have been getting more attention of late but I'd like to see a LOT more interest. Venus has a huge number of questions that need to be looked into and frankly could use some intensive study from close up inside the atmosphere...

Venus is scary.  On top of the extreme temperature and the acid clouds, it's essentially a miniature gas giant...

(Not that I disagree with you.  But still...  you can stand on Mars.)

Except for the carbon dioxide content, there are zones in the Venusian atmosphere where the air pressure is earth normal and the air temperature is earth temperate; excellent places for floating labs, exploration centers or small outposts or stations.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline 93143

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
  • Liked: 312
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #33 on: 05/18/2011 04:31 am »
I am, in fact, aware of that, and have been for some time.  I also seem to have this weird phobia of falling into an atmosphere that will kill me long before I hit anything solid...

Offline Patchouli

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4490
  • Liked: 253
  • Likes Given: 457
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #34 on: 05/18/2011 04:43 am »
And yes, VERY much so Mars has always seemed to hold the larger fascination which leaves both Venus and Mercury as the "almost-was" planets. Thankfully they have been getting more attention of late but I'd like to see a LOT more interest. Venus has a huge number of questions that need to be looked into and frankly could use some intensive study from close up inside the atmosphere...

Venus is scary.  On top of the extreme temperature and the acid clouds, it's essentially a miniature gas giant...

(Not that I disagree with you.  But still...  you can stand on Mars.)

Except for the carbon dioxide content, there are zones in the Venusian atmosphere where the air pressure is earth normal and the air temperature is earth temperate; excellent places for floating labs, exploration centers or small outposts or stations.


Another advantage A N2 O2 Earth type atmosphere is an effective lift gas on Venus.
Both of these can be easily obtained from the atmosphere.

The balloon it's self can store atmosphere maybe even be used for recreational space.

The hard part would be getting the airships and station in Venus' atmosphere and deployed.
Maybe a reverse of the airship to orbit plan of JP aerospace not sure it could be used for the way back up.
http://www.jpaerospace.com/

Some good news they won't have to be as gossamer as a high altitude station on earth and instead could be more like an old Zeppelin in their construction.

As for coming and going maybe NTR SSTOs with a jet mode.

There would be no good abort modes except to orbit or the floating base.

Some good news a blimp could be used as an escape device.

Despite its scary atmosphere Venus is far more balloon friendly then Mars.

An airship on Mars would have to be like the JP aerospace high altitude airship yet subject to low altitude turbulence.

Think for Mars an NTR hopper the uses the CO2 atmosphere to recharge every few days would be a better investment.

I am, in fact, aware of that, and have been for some time.  I also seem to have this weird phobia of falling into an atmosphere that will kill me long before I hit anything solid...

You do know a very similar situation exists with Earth's oceans.

If you are on a naval submarine and it goes down too far you would be dead long before reaching the ocean floor.
In fact the pressures on the ocean floor are deadlier to humans then outer space.
« Last Edit: 05/18/2011 05:12 am by Patchouli »

Offline 93143

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
  • Liked: 312
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #35 on: 05/18/2011 05:31 am »
I don't like the deep ocean either.  But at least a human can float on the surface...

Actually, I've liked (in an academic sense) the Venus aerostat idea for a while.  Transport to and from orbit is a problem, though...  Earth-normal gravity has its disadvantages, as any rocket scientist will tell you...

Saturn has about one gee at the cloud tops (Uranus and Neptune are fairly close too).  It's also huge.  It rotates pretty fast, but even at the equator you still need to add more than 15 km/s just to reach orbit...
« Last Edit: 05/18/2011 06:15 am by 93143 »

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 868
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 191
  • Likes Given: 625
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #36 on: 05/18/2011 07:51 am »
Speaking of trains........   No, better not.  OT.

Mick.

No, no, go ahead... after all how often does a thread around here STAY on-topic for any great length of time ;)

Randy

Well.......    I was just wondering how fast a Maglev vehicle would travel in 1/3 G and 1.0 % Earth atmospheric pressure.  Would it be ballistic speed or would the low grav and pressure force a more sedate pace ???

Mick.

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5974
  • Liked: 1312
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #37 on: 05/18/2011 02:19 pm »
I was similarly thinking that a blimp would similarly face much less forward air resistance in Mars' 1% Earth atm.

Offline RanulfC

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4595
  • Heus tu Omnis! Vigilate Hoc!
  • Liked: 900
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #38 on: 05/18/2011 05:05 pm »
Speaking of trains........   No, better not.  OT.

Mick.

No, no, go ahead... after all how often does a thread around here STAY on-topic for any great length of time ;)

Randy

Well.......    I was just wondering how fast a Maglev vehicle would travel in 1/3 G and 1.0 % Earth atmospheric pressure.  Would it be ballistic speed or would the low grav and pressure force a more sedate pace ???

Mick.
Lower pressure and lower gravity would probably allow higher speeds with a mag-lev, not quite "ballistic" speeds though :)

Quote from: sanman
I was similarly thinking that a blimp would similarly face much less forward air resistance in Mars' 1% Earth atm.
You also have to have a larger envelope to make the process work in the first place. It ends up evening out ;)
You also have a propulsion issue to getting to a high enough speed for "drag" to matter over lift.

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline RanulfC

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4595
  • Heus tu Omnis! Vigilate Hoc!
  • Liked: 900
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #39 on: 05/18/2011 07:55 pm »
And yes, VERY much so Mars has always seemed to hold the larger fascination which leaves both Venus and Mercury as the "almost-was" planets. Thankfully they have been getting more attention of late but I'd like to see a LOT more interest. Venus has a huge number of questions that need to be looked into and frankly could use some intensive study from close up inside the atmosphere...

Venus is scary.  On top of the extreme temperature and the acid clouds, it's essentially a miniature gas giant...

(Not that I disagree with you.  But still...  you can stand on Mars.)
Not that I'm going to get into the "discussion" which is a "better" planet to explore, ('cause then I'd have to point out it's really NOT an "either/or" thing at all... but I digress... a LOT :) ) but you can "stand" on Venus too... It just takes some work :o)

(Noting your "deep-sea" issue, I'll still point out we have equipment that can both stand the heat and pressure. Just it's time limited)
Quote from: Clongton
Except for the carbon dioxide content, there are zones in the Venusian atmosphere where the air pressure is earth normal and the air temperature is earth temperate; excellent places for floating labs, exploration centers or small outposts or stations.
Quote from: 93143
I am, in fact, aware of that, and have been for some time.
These day's I'm surprised how many folks STILL don't know this! It wasn't too long ago ('bout a year or two IIRC) that I got into a "disagreement" with someone who insisted that Mars was so much better than Venus as a "destination" because Mars at least had an atmosphere! :) (Took a couple of weeks of discussion before I realized he was THINKING of Mercury but saying Venus.... Communications, sometimes it's a forign launguage all by itself ;) )

Quote
I also seem to have this weird phobia of falling into an atmosphere that will kill me long before I hit anything solid...
Hmmm... how high is Mount Maxwell? How long can you hold your breath? Hmmm... Ahh never mind, even on Earth it's not the fall as much as the sudden "terminal" decelleration on the other end...

Quote from: Patchouli
Another advantage A N2 O2 Earth type atmosphere is an effective lift gas on Venus.
Both of these can be easily obtained from the atmosphere.

The balloon it's self can store atmosphere maybe even be used for recreational space.
Or general living space actually :)

Sat down at one point and BoTed a "Venus" hab using the MD-Hab stats. Far, FAR too 'over-designed' for the job the lifting envelope ended up with more 'living-space' than the proposed Mars Colony in order to lift the full-up hab! Ended up re-configuring with a JP-Aerospace (see-below) 3-boom design with Hydrogen-filled out-riggers and an "standard" Earth Atmosphere keel. Not as much space as a straight "sphere" design but better manuverability and a higher safety factor.

Quote
The hard part would be getting the airships and station in Venus' atmosphere and deployed.
Maybe a reverse of the airship to orbit plan of JP aerospace not sure it could be used for the way back up.
http://www.jpaerospace.com/
Bigger, low-weight structure decellerates higher up with less heating or so the idea goes. Similar to the FIRST re-entry glider technology, with more modern materials or you could just have a large radius carbon-carbon cap and aeroshield on the nose and keep the "booms" tied together and left in the wake until you're lower down.
Quote
Some good news they won't have to be as gossamer as a high altitude station on earth and instead could be more like an old Zeppelin in their construction.
The phrase "daming-with-faint-praise" comes to mind :)
Part and parcel of the Zeps and other LTA on Earth is they STILL have to be very light weight and high-strength/low-weight materials are a more modern inovation. Still the density of the Venus atmosphere helps greatly and means you can very effectivly isolate sections of high-lift hydrogen from the habitat atmosphere much easier.

Quote
As for coming and going maybe NTR SSTOs with a jet mode.

There would be no good abort modes except to orbit or the floating base.

Some good news a blimp could be used as an escape device.
"Near" Earth gravity (@90% at altitude) and a thick atmosphere means you'll probably need at LEAST a TSTO type vehicle but having the ability to make your own propellant AND launch from high-atititude helps.

Abort(s) anywhere are going to be tricky to say the least :)

An NTR is possible but not essential since you can still do staging. Come to think of it you can PROBABLY use a reusable 1st stage and have it fly back to the hab as a possible method...
Quote from: 93143
Actually, I've liked (in an academic sense) the Venus aerostat idea for a while.  Transport to and from orbit is a problem, though...  Earth-normal gravity has its disadvantages, as any rocket scientist will tell you...
True, but there are advantages also. Like Mars, (Mercury, the Moon, Saturn, continue as needed :) Venus is a place we're going to visit at some point as we move out into space.

Personally I tend to lean more towards Venus exploration than Mars, especially since it's been so neglected up until now.

Then again I'm not very "ocean" adverese either.... Now the things IN the ocean? Ya I've got a phobia of sharks. Eversince I smacked face-mask-to-nose with one coming around a bridge piling in Florida... Scared my young mind :)

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline 93143

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
  • Liked: 312
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #40 on: 05/19/2011 11:15 pm »
Hmmm... how high is Mount Maxwell? How long can you hold your breath?

From Wikipedia:  "Due to its elevation it is the coolest (about 380 °C (716 °F)) and least pressurised (about 60 bars (59 atm)) location on the surface of Venus."

...so yeah.  Not good enough.

Quote
we have equipment that can both stand the heat and pressure.

We do?  Or do you just mean stuff like the Venera probes?

I'd love to see a fusion-powered refrigerated base on Venus, and refrigerated rovers and hardsuits and such.  It does seem like a disproportionate level of effort...

Offline RanulfC

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4595
  • Heus tu Omnis! Vigilate Hoc!
  • Liked: 900
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #41 on: 05/20/2011 02:31 pm »
Quote from: 93143
We do?  Or do you just mean stuff like the Venera probes?

I'd love to see a fusion-powered refrigerated base on Venus, and refrigerated rovers and hardsuits and such.  It does seem like a disproportionate level of effort...
We do. Turns out the Deep Ocean Hard Suits with some modifications and special construction can probably be used for surface "jaunts" on Venus.
http://www.oceanworks.com/atmosphericDivingSystems.php

I'm trying to find the link again but there was a video for a Science Channel series where they did research on various colonization and exploration schemes and the one on Venus showed that the systems like the above ADS could be made to survive on Venus for short periods of time. (The main factor as you noted is cooling) However, since the hard-suits are MADE for Terran Oceans where they woud be 'neutrally' buoyant some method was needed to make them the same on Venus. The idea was to attach "buoyancy" balloons to offset the weight of the suit and use them to also ascend back up to the clouds when needed.

STAYING on the surface is probably not a viable idea as disipation of heat gets more and more difficult. One idea is to use a "phase-change" material (suggested has been water-ice since it can also work as a heat-sink) in a duel balloon system to land a probe on the surface. After a time the water-ice will have become steam which is lighter-than-air on Venus, a balloon is filled with the steam and allows the probe to ascend back into the upper clouds where it can cool down and re-freeze the ice for another descent run.

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline clongton

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12053
  • Connecticut
    • Direct Launcher
  • Liked: 7347
  • Likes Given: 3749
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #42 on: 05/20/2011 02:37 pm »
Remember that Venus is nearly the same size as the Earth and has a gravity well just as deep as Earth's.
Once landed on the surface, any human crew is going to need a very big launch vehicle to return to orbit.
Baring being lowered from a floating platform high in the atmosphere, I doubt human crews will visit the Venusian surface anytime soon.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline RanulfC

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4595
  • Heus tu Omnis! Vigilate Hoc!
  • Liked: 900
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #43 on: 05/20/2011 03:30 pm »
Remember that Venus is nearly the same size as the Earth and has a gravity well just as deep as Earth's.
Once landed on the surface, any human crew is going to need a very big launch vehicle to return to orbit.
Baring being lowered from a floating platform high in the atmosphere, I doubt human crews will visit the Venusian surface anytime soon.
Actually that's the basic idea as it's easier all around to have the humans floating near the top of the cloud deck than trying to maintain any type of surface infrastructure. The altitude also helps with maintianing an orbital return vehicle and helps somewhat with the launch cycle.

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline jee_c2

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 127
  • Budapest, Hungary
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 45
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #44 on: 05/20/2011 04:52 pm »

Well.......    I was just wondering how fast a Maglev vehicle would travel in 1/3 G and 1.0 % Earth atmospheric pressure.  Would it be ballistic speed or would the low grav and pressure force a more sedate pace ???

Mick.
To think it a bit forward: it is much easier to create an evacuated tube on Mars, then on Earth. And there is that "little" Mount Olympus, which simply reaches space. Wouldn't it be nice to build a long evacuated tube, going up on(in) the side of Mount Olypmus, and so launching the spaceships from Mars surface to Mars orbit? :)

Offline baldusi

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8356
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Liked: 2539
  • Likes Given: 8273
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #45 on: 05/20/2011 05:48 pm »

Well.......    I was just wondering how fast a Maglev vehicle would travel in 1/3 G and 1.0 % Earth atmospheric pressure.  Would it be ballistic speed or would the low grav and pressure force a more sedate pace ???

Mick.
To think it a bit forward: it is much easier to create an evacuated tube on Mars, then on Earth. And there is that "little" Mount Olympus, which simply reaches space. Wouldn't it be nice to build a long evacuated tube, going up on(in) the side of Mount Olypmus, and so launching the spaceships from Mars surface to Mars orbit? :)
Actually, Mars atmosphere lowers it pressure slower than Earth. At "zero" altitude (not so easy to define on Mars), it's equivalent to 70km on Earth. So somewhere around 250km, the pressure's are the same. After that, you have higher pressure on Mars than on Earth. Which is a problem since actual orbits tend to be lower in Mars. So MEO has actually more reboost requirements than Earth.

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5974
  • Liked: 1312
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #46 on: 05/20/2011 08:45 pm »
Actually, Mars atmosphere lowers it pressure slower than Earth. At "zero" altitude (not so easy to define on Mars), it's equivalent to 70km on Earth. So somewhere around 250km, the pressure's are the same. After that, you have higher pressure on Mars than on Earth. Which is a problem since actual orbits tend to be lower in Mars. So MEO has actually more reboost requirements than Earth.

Actually, this taller atmosphere would make it good for circulating aerosols and greenhouse gases to increase the Martian albedo and solar absorption.

A very deep layer of very thin atmosphere should make for high ionizability. Perhaps that's something that should be further explored for atmospheric entry or launch purposes. I'm thinking electrostatic ion-wind, here.

Offline baldusi

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8356
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Liked: 2539
  • Likes Given: 8273
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #47 on: 05/20/2011 09:04 pm »
I don't have the slightest idea. Mars has an incomplete Van Allen belt. So I'm not sure the process works like in earth. In fact, I'm pretty sure there's a mission being designed to understand exactly that. I've seen a program where thay shoved a simulation, where the interaction of the incomplete magnetic belt with solar flares, created pockets of atmosphere, that where expunged to outer space. So the Martian atmosphere doesn't have to behave like Earth's.
But this got me thinking. What about a blimp only to travel through the Valles Marineris? Those are deep, so pressure should be higher. An there must be some very well defined currents.

Offline clongton

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12053
  • Connecticut
    • Direct Launcher
  • Liked: 7347
  • Likes Given: 3749
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #48 on: 05/20/2011 09:25 pm »
I don't have the slightest idea. Mars has an incomplete Van Allen belt. So I'm not sure the process works like in earth. In fact, I'm pretty sure there's a mission being designed to understand exactly that. I've seen a program where thay shoved a simulation, where the interaction of the incomplete magnetic belt with solar flares, created pockets of atmosphere, that where expunged to outer space. So the Martian atmosphere doesn't have to behave like Earth's.
But this got me thinking. What about a blimp only to travel through the Valles Marineris? Those are deep, so pressure should be higher. An there must be some very well defined currents.

Actually I think the Valles Marienis is the right place to begin to develop a human presence. There are actually parts of it that lend themselves to being sealed. If we're very lucky, we may find a lava tube or two that opens into it that will allow further expansion.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline jee_c2

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 127
  • Budapest, Hungary
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 45
Re: Martian Blimp
« Reply #49 on: 05/21/2011 05:08 pm »

Actually, Mars atmosphere lowers it pressure slower than Earth. At "zero" altitude (not so easy to define on Mars), it's equivalent to 70km on Earth. So somewhere around 250km, the pressure's are the same. After that, you have higher pressure on Mars than on Earth. Which is a problem since actual orbits tend to be lower in Mars. So MEO has actually more reboost requirements than Earth.
I see. A stable enough orbit must be higher on Mars (from Mars surface), than at Earth, because of the drag.

A drew a picture about this launching tube:

On picture: red: launch tube, light blue: route of spaceship. The picture doesn't show the height of the orbit in the picture's scael, surely it is higher. The spacecraft launched this way has to modify it's path for the orbit.
Unless it's aim is leaving Mars (and having big enough speed for that) (i.e. targheting Earth).

So the tube has to be long enough to reach big enough speed It should be powered by energy collected on Mars (solar power).

The whole idea is more simple on Moon (no atmosphere, no need for tube).

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1