Quote from: rpapo on 06/27/2017 10:23 amQuote from: JamesH65 on 06/27/2017 10:16 amQuote from: Kabloona on 06/26/2017 06:37 pmInteresting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage.We have known this pretty much from the beginning, but some people were skeptical, so it's worth noting that we now have confirmation of the fact directly from SpaceX.Corollary. Why does the ASDS need to receive telemetry from the stage? It knows it's on its way, it doesn't need to move, it doesn't need to know anything.In this case, the ASDS serves as a data relay for SpaceX, since by the time the stage is closing in on the ASDS, it is below the horizon from the launch pad.Unless I'm much mistaken, it's one of the support ships that performs the data relay function - not the ASDS - since, as you quite rightly mentioned, it is below the horizon from the launch pad.We know this because, long ago, in a thread not far away from this one, a knowledgeable and determined NSFer (not me!) sorted through the on-line list of SpaceX's FCC RF licence approvals and worked out what was being sent by what to where. Very impressive it was too!!Anyways, since it's a proven point already, let's move on shall we?
Quote from: JamesH65 on 06/27/2017 10:16 amQuote from: Kabloona on 06/26/2017 06:37 pmInteresting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage.We have known this pretty much from the beginning, but some people were skeptical, so it's worth noting that we now have confirmation of the fact directly from SpaceX.Corollary. Why does the ASDS need to receive telemetry from the stage? It knows it's on its way, it doesn't need to move, it doesn't need to know anything.In this case, the ASDS serves as a data relay for SpaceX, since by the time the stage is closing in on the ASDS, it is below the horizon from the launch pad.
Quote from: Kabloona on 06/26/2017 06:37 pmInteresting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage.We have known this pretty much from the beginning, but some people were skeptical, so it's worth noting that we now have confirmation of the fact directly from SpaceX.Corollary. Why does the ASDS need to receive telemetry from the stage? It knows it's on its way, it doesn't need to move, it doesn't need to know anything.
Interesting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage.We have known this pretty much from the beginning, but some people were skeptical, so it's worth noting that we now have confirmation of the fact directly from SpaceX.
Quote from: Kabloona on 06/26/2017 06:37 pmInteresting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage....His exact words were "The drone ship does not send commands to the first stage in flight." That leaves open whether or not commands are given to the stage after it lands, perhaps as part of safing it. I'm not sure why that would be necessary though: the safing process could and probably should be entirely automatic. After all, the rocket knows when it has landed.
Interesting that John Insprucker mentioned on the Iridium launch webcast that the ASDS does *not* send any signals to the returning stage; it only receives telemetry from the stage....
...First Stage Recovery permit application:QuoteThis STA covers the experimental first-stage recovery operation, following a Falcon 9 launch from Vandenberg Air Force Base. This request is limited to the brief command uplink from an autonomous droneship to the launch vehicle after landing.Ship Coordinates: North 31 39 58 West 121 39 43
This STA covers the experimental first-stage recovery operation, following a Falcon 9 launch from Vandenberg Air Force Base. This request is limited to the brief command uplink from an autonomous droneship to the launch vehicle after landing.
Quote from: RDMM2081 on 06/27/2017 06:45 amSorry if I missed it in this mass of ASDS threads, but has there been any attempt made at an estimate of total cost of ASDS, barge + materials + thrusters + avionics + paint etc. I.E. what might SpaceX insure them for (assuming they could get insurance for something they are actively targeting with multiple tons of incoming ballistic "missile") or what might it cost them to replace from the ground up? I think when they were first announced (ASDS in general) I made a super rough estimate of $3m for a Marmac, $1m for the steel deck plating, $500k for the thrusters, and another $500k for labor, paint and fuel, plus $250k for towing for the first landing attempt mission. Anyone else have any guesses or adjustments?Since each ASDS has caught one stage... that later has reflown... (two reflown to date)I think we can safely say that both are nearing cash positive on the Spacex books... all in... IOW... Cost to build and maintain both ASDS's... Costs ongoing for two tugs on call and three Go boats on call...Cost to refurb the stages... Cost of cranes... Cost of port leases and installed fixturing... Cost of labor...Balance that against not having to build two stages so far... My opinion is close to break even as of today...Refly another stage and it starts going against the other costs to date company wide... Just my opinion on question posed...
Sorry if I missed it in this mass of ASDS threads, but has there been any attempt made at an estimate of total cost of ASDS, barge + materials + thrusters + avionics + paint etc. I.E. what might SpaceX insure them for (assuming they could get insurance for something they are actively targeting with multiple tons of incoming ballistic "missile") or what might it cost them to replace from the ground up? I think when they were first announced (ASDS in general) I made a super rough estimate of $3m for a Marmac, $1m for the steel deck plating, $500k for the thrusters, and another $500k for labor, paint and fuel, plus $250k for towing for the first landing attempt mission. Anyone else have any guesses or adjustments?
Professional ship designer here. I work with barges like the ASDS all the time.Daily rates for an ocean-going tug are an average of $15k / day / tug. http://www.marcon.com/library/articles/2007/Tug%20Trends%20-%20Final%20color.pdfIf you assume a distance of 120 NM offshore, then you get around 5-6 days time for each launch. So tug commitment is $90k / tug / launch. Docking fees are around $0.45 / GRT. For the ASDS, that comes to around $60k / month.Barge costs around $10M to build and equip with the thrustmaster DP modules.Add in some $20k/launch for fuel and supplies. And another $10k/launch for cranes. Including a rough insurance cost. Assume 1 launch per month and assume that you own the barge (because I don't want to consider charter rates in the 10 minutes I spent on this). And assume a 10 year operational life, which is really short for a barge. That gives you a capitalized cost of around $38M for 10 years of barge operations. (roughly $317k per launch.)If you do two launches per month, that gives you a capitalized cost of around $60M for 10 years. (roughly $250k per launch.) Someone else said a new Falcon 9 costs $30M? My estimates don't include costs of making the rocket ready for the next launch. But still safe to say a good value proposition.
My only comment is that, in this case, SpaceX have chosen to charter the barges. That seemed to make sense initially because it was very much an experiment, but now maybe not so much?
Quote from: CameronD on 07/31/2017 11:46 pmMy only comment is that, in this case, SpaceX have chosen to charter the barges. That seemed to make sense initially because it was very much an experiment, but now maybe not so much?Fair point. As you said, it makes sense to charter when this is just an initial experiment. I initially avoided the charter question because it gets really complicated. Each charter contract is different depending on who pays for what (insurance, regulatory fees, crew costs, fuel, etc). But to take my already rough numbers and make them even more rough:...So yeah, I like the current ASDS. But I really want to know what the next generation looks like.
I think SpaceX's plan is that there is no next generation ASDS. I think the point to ITSy is that the booster can always RTLS. Presumably the reusable second stage will be able to choose when it deorbits so it lands on land as well.
Quote from: mme on 08/02/2017 05:59 amI think SpaceX's plan is that there is no next generation ASDS. I think the point to ITSy is that the booster can always RTLS. Presumably the reusable second stage will be able to choose when it deorbits so it lands on land as well.Their plan was to always RTLC (Return To Launch Cradle ) but that was just a plan.We haven't seen much evidence of progress to that end, like we saw Grasshopper pathfinding for vertical landing. It's a grand vision, but all the physical evidence we have seen is a ginormous composite tank, which was tested to destruction, and a small methalox engine doing short bursts. There will be changes in implementation.Maybe they would put a landing cradle on one of the ASDSs.
Quote from: CameronD on 07/31/2017 11:46 pmMy only comment is that, in this case, SpaceX have chosen to charter the barges. That seemed to make sense initially because it was very much an experiment, but now maybe not so much?Fair point. As you said, it makes sense to charter when this is just an initial experiment. I initially avoided the charter question because it gets really complicated. Each charter contract is different depending on who pays for what (insurance, regulatory fees, crew costs, fuel, etc). But to take my already rough numbers and make them even more rough:That barge is a standard ocean going deck barge. Almost as simple as it gets. So assume a low charter rate of $5k per day.
Quote from: nickninevah on 08/01/2017 04:35 pmQuote from: CameronD on 07/31/2017 11:46 pmMy only comment is that, in this case, SpaceX have chosen to charter the barges. That seemed to make sense initially because it was very much an experiment, but now maybe not so much?Fair point. As you said, it makes sense to charter when this is just an initial experiment. I initially avoided the charter question because it gets really complicated. Each charter contract is different depending on who pays for what (insurance, regulatory fees, crew costs, fuel, etc). But to take my already rough numbers and make them even more rough:That barge is a standard ocean going deck barge. Almost as simple as it gets. So assume a low charter rate of $5k per day. $5k per day is ridiculously low for ANY boat charter, much less one the size on an ASDS. The ASDS likely burns $5k per day in fuel. The boat I charter to go out to sea (~150' long, not very wide and not very fast) costs $4k per day in fuel. Add in depreciation costs, registration costs, insurance, remote monitoring staff, satcom costs, etc, etc. and you're into 5 digits pretty quickly.
He listed the barge and the tug separately. The $5k was just for a barge that can be turned into an ASDS.
I believe we've seen the support ships leave port to do non-spacex-related work. So they might not be 100% under contract.
Yeah, it was E3 I was mostly referring to.