Author Topic: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?  (Read 46117 times)

Offline kraisee

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I'd like to spark a discussion with everyone here to see what y'all would like to see happen when we do get back to putting people on the surface of the moon again.

Are you interested in long-term colonisation?   If so, what approaches would you like to see in order to create the infrastructure needed on the surface?   Would you like to see a series of small outposts created at different sites around the moon's surface, or one central colony with some form of vehicle to get people and resources to other sites?   Do you want automated mining systems producing in-situ resources?   What about a manned or automated telescope facility in permanent darkness?   How about a mass driver for sending payloads back to Earth?

Or are you more interested in using the moon just as a "training exercise" for the bigger push for 'Mars and beyond'?   How do you see the VSE being crafted towards that, and what would be your next logical steps in the process (once we prove we can still land on other worlds at all) for taking the next big leap for mankind?

There's a lot of clever people on here, and a lot of people who might benefit from some expertise too, so I'm just curious what everyone's opinions are :)

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
-Robert A. Heinlein

Offline vt_hokie

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RE: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #1 on: 05/13/2006 09:13 am »
A telescope of some sort would be pretty cool.  But I'm afraid that NASA barely has enough money to get back to the moon, if they're lucky, much less do anything significant once they get there.  That's why I think we need to reduce launch costs and increase flight rates significantly before any real uitilization of lunar resources can occur.

Offline mong'

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RE: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #2 on: 05/13/2006 11:20 am »
good post kraisee, should generate some interesting ideas.

Personnaly I don't think the moon will ever be colonized (or at least not for a long time) the ressources needed to support an advanced technological civilization are just not there, and importing everything the moon lacks would be a serious challenge.

BUT, I see the moon used more like a research lab, especially for (large scale) astronomy, in every wavelength, the moon is a formidable telescope platform, with one of its side constantly away from the earth, and almost no geologic movement to compensate for. I think the most useful way to use the moon is to set VERY large telescopes and interferometer to provide a gigantic observatory capable of imaginig and studying the faintest and most distant object in the universe (such as exoplanets)

Another good use has been debated here for quite some time: helium3
well, right now we don't need helium3, so it can't be the driving force to settle the moon, but since we're talking mid-term to long-term here, it would be a great advantage for the lunar outposts, not only because they would be able to trade it with earth (at a rather high price i might add), but since Helium3 is rare you need to extract and process huge quantities of lunar soil, then you could perhaps extract some useful materials in the process.
For example in the amount of material you need to extract one ton of Helium3, there is like 10 tons of aluminium or carbon, or another useful material.
such a material would be too  cheap to send  to earth and hoping to make a profit, BUT you could use it to enhance the base, build parts for radiotelescope, etc...

such an outpost (mainly a scientific base) would be at the poles, near a water ice source.
water ice would be heated and electrolyzed by a refueling unit powered by a nuclear reactor, thus producing LOX and LH2 used to fuel re-usable landers that would ferry cargo form LLO to the surface

the telescopes would be on the far side, a few hundred kilometers from the base and would be accessible by pressurized rovers powered too by LOX/LH2

that's all I can think about for the moment, but the subject is so vast !

Offline PlanetStorm

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RE: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #3 on: 05/13/2006 01:59 pm »

I totally agree with using the moon as a site for telescopes. I don't think very large baseline visible-wavelength interferometers can be built anywhere else, so we should start with these and get ultra-high resolution images of everthing from Pluto to the most distant galaxies. Not quite so sure about radio wavelength telescopes though - space-based telescopes are probably an easier option for such wavelengths?

First though, surely Lunar geology should be the major thrust of the science effort? I think that will provide answers to many questions concerning the early solar system and formation of the Earth, so I guess this is my immediate favourite thing to do, and also probably one of the simplest to do. Large scale surveys and sampling, deep drilling, and the opportunity to pick up some very pristine meteorites! And the geology has to be understood first before any serious exploitation can be contemplated.

But don't forget, the moon is just the first step on a much longer journey. I personally would want to see NASA's attention refocus pretty quickly on the "Mars and Beyond" bit of VSE, rather than stopping to concentrate on possilbe exploitation of the moon. Commercial opportunities will naturally open, so NASA should bow out and leave that to others while moving on with the Vision. As for colonizing, I think Mars might be a better candidate if only because there is some chance of it supporting a breathable atmosphere some time in the distant future. Having said that though, I for one would dearly love the opportunity to open the skylight on my Lunar home and gaze at the blue Earth rising over the horizon.

Offline astrobrian

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Re: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #4 on: 05/13/2006 02:11 pm »
Colonizing the Moon would be the greatest thing for the private space industry. Think about it. Who better than the FedExs and UPSs of the world to become transporters of goods to the moon. They already have massive shipping abilities as it is, and the Moon is far smaller than Earth.
I would also love to see one or two telescopes, probably both thown either well into the dark side of the moon, or right on the day/night division.
Have at least one space station/outpost, probably no bigger than what the ISS is now and stick it either in LLO, or in a Lagrange point for various crew rotations.
If it proves it would help the cost of colonizing, exportation of Helium3 would be good to play with as well as beaming back solar enrgy. Last but surely not least use it as a trainging ground for new technologies that plan to be implimented on the martian soil. Everything from a new rover design going through trial runs to new suit designs, the works.  
And for us space nuts, capitalism at its finest, sell some moon rocks for $19.95 plus shipping and handling :)

Offline Zoomer30

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RE: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #5 on: 05/13/2006 10:10 pm »
I want to be able to look at the moon and see cities.  I want to look at the moon with my telescope and see ships landing.  Thats what I want.  I want a REAL "Lake Armstrong" (ST:NG fans will get that joke).  Only time will tell.

Offline astrobrian

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Re: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #6 on: 05/13/2006 10:13 pm »
they do have a crater named after him in mare tranquialis :) it'll have to do for now, but soon hopefully Tycho city and New Berlin will be real.

Offline Bill White

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Re: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #7 on: 05/14/2006 02:14 am »
I propose that we look for platinum bearing asteroid fragments. Moonrush is a good introduction to the topic.

Are there sufficient intact asteroid fragments to harvest? Unknown yet it is an eminently testable hypothesis, just go look. If intact asteroid fragments are to be found at or near the lunar surface, mining those shall be far easier than mining NEOs in open space. Here are some reasons:

(1) Fragments on the Moon won't be spinning or tumbling. In free space, asteroids very likely will have multi-axis spin rates making it hard to grabble with them.

(2) 1/6th gravity really will help with processing.

(3) 3 days from Earth in case of medical emergencies and the launch window is always open. Really good NEO (for mining) might be on a different inclination with rare launch window opportunities even if total delta V is less

(4) Share infrastructure with scientists and tourists.

I can go on, if need be. But the main point is this, mining asteroids on the moon may be far easier than mining asteroids in open space.
EML architectures should be seen as ratchet opportunities

Offline astrobrian

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Re: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #8 on: 05/14/2006 03:22 am »
I imagine there are more than a few instruments available to scientists that could be put into an orbiting probe to look for such materials, then create maps of the best yielding areas of interest.

Offline Bill White

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Re: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #9 on: 05/14/2006 03:58 am »
Quote
astrobrian - 13/5/2006  10:09 PM

I imagine there are more than a few instruments available to scientists that could be put into an orbiting probe to look for such materials, then create maps of the best yielding areas of interest.

Exactly! These satellites need not be all that expensive, either.

Once we have the ability to extract LO2 from lunar regolith and a genuine re-useable LSAM we can drop a team of astronauts onto any promising site and if site #1 is a dry hole, lift off and hop over to site #2. And so on.
EML architectures should be seen as ratchet opportunities

Offline astrobrian

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Re: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #10 on: 05/14/2006 04:40 am »
With the right instruments, there really shouldn't be any dry holes. If there were though I dont believe there would be many constraints for backup sites. I dont think orbital inclination would hamper anything because they can go pretty much where ever on the moon.  This would also use my orbiting station, only with this example it would be used more as a storage depot for transport ships. Run the RLSAM back and forth to the orbiting station and wait for the next digging assignment.  This idea has some potential  :)

Offline mong'

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Re: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #11 on: 05/14/2006 11:08 am »
Yep but the problem with large scale mining on the moon is that nearly every supplies the miners will need are gonna have to be shipped from earth, so such installation may pose a considerable logistic challenge, and thus may not appear until a well developped earth-to-moon transportation architecture appears.
....wich might be a long time from now  :(

Offline Bill White

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Re: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #12 on: 05/14/2006 12:17 pm »
Quote
mong' - 14/5/2006  5:55 AM

Yep but the problem with large scale mining on the moon is that nearly every supplies the miners will need are gonna have to be shipped from earth, so such installation may pose a considerable logistic challenge, and thus may not appear until a well developped earth-to-moon transportation architecture appears.
....wich might be a long time from now  :(

Using chemical propulsion and soft lunar landing there is roughly a 1 to 5 ratio between mass in LEO and mass on the lunar surface. In other words, 5000 kg in LEO yields 1000 kg on Luna. Attack that ratio first.

For cargo (the material used by astronauts to mine & stay alive) use solar ion propulsion or momentum exchange tethers and fly long slow trajectories and then crash land at a shallow angle using airbags advanced from those used to land the MER rovers on Mars. Durable goods only can be delivered this way to substantially lower logistics costs.

A single MXER tether (momentum exchange electric reboost) could start tossing bulk goods the day after it was deployed. ~$1000/$1200 per pound to LEO via Russia's Proton and maybe 2x rather than 5x to land clean uniforms, tools, some fuels and food on the lunar surface.

More fragile goods can be tossed to an L1 point for delivery by reuseable robotic cargo only LSAMs. If using lunar LO2 and methane then 80% of the mass from CH4 + 2 O2 combustion comes from lunar sources. 89% if its 2 H2 + O2.

Lunar O2 is the key to all this.

= = =

The same logistics pipeline can feed miner, scientists and tourists, with miners likely being the 3rd group to go. Prospectors fall some between scientists and tourists.

Remember, if we have an r-LSAM and lunar LO2, then the people need only reach EML-1 or EML-2 and for three people that costs about $100 million - today - flying a Soyuz + Proton combo.
EML architectures should be seen as ratchet opportunities

Offline mong'

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Re: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #13 on: 05/14/2006 12:41 pm »
That's basically what i'm saying, if you're going to set up a sizeable mining operation (especially if you want to make a profit) you'll need a dedicated architecture for transport between earth and lunar orbit (and back), and that will take some time to appear. the problem is not technology, the problem is to do it efficiently, simply, often, and most of all cheap.
now such an efficient architecture will undoubtedly occur but it may take some time to develop.

and yes I do agree that the moon is a good spot for mining for all the good reasons you gave in your previous post

Offline astrobrian

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Re: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #14 on: 05/14/2006 02:37 pm »
If cheap can't be done, then it will be up to the cost to profit ratio. If there is a substantial profit to be made then it doesn't matter the logistical costs, someone will be up for the challenge.  As for the structure in getting "material x" back to Earth, I suggested one of the big delivery companies because they have efficient structures in place here on good ole Terra firma that I feel could be translated to Earth-Luna routes.  The mass ratio of 1-6 is something I didn't consider but is a valid point as well.

 :)

Offline Chris Bergin

Competition throughout. The second it becomes a pork related love in with favoured industry is the second it becomes highly possible it'll all fall down.

Open it up to all industry that can do something with the 'VSE'....because political landscapes change and that risks it all.
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Offline Andy USA

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Re: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #16 on: 05/14/2006 08:33 pm »
A lunar base is a must. We've done the moon already and nothing as such is exciting to Joe Public if we just do the same again. We must make long term plans.

Offline astrobrian

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Re: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #17 on: 05/14/2006 09:07 pm »
As messed up as it is for me to say it ( I hate these things myself ) a reality show might perk the interest of the public some. Plenty of drama for them to play up

Offline hyper_snyper

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Re: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #18 on: 05/14/2006 09:26 pm »

Quote
astrobrian - 14/5/2006  4:54 PM  As messed up as it is for me to say it ( I hate these things myself ) a reality show might perk the interest of the public some. Plenty of drama for them to play up

Survivor: Luna?  I cringe just thinking about it.

Seriously though, the most important thing I think we have to do in terms of the Moon is develop a robust Earth-Moon transportation infrastructure.  That way getting there will be easy and relatively cheap.  That's when the flood gates will open.

 

 


Offline mong'

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Re: What do you want to do when we get back to the moon?
« Reply #19 on: 05/14/2006 09:44 pm »
there may be a case of egg and chicken here.

we need earth to moon cheap transport to support a base & we need a base to justify earth to moon cheap transport !

Personnaly I'm convinced that only the later can happen. we need a big effort to set up a base and THEN (and only then) the private sector will be able to develop that access.
And by chance, NASA's actual goal is to set up such a base, and this is exactly how it's supposed to be done: the government blazes the trail and the private sector follows (just like what is finally going to happen with COTS). so let's prey they can do it and we might have some interesting stuff to look forward to in the future

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