Launch location is always going to be limited by the number of airports that are both big enough to accomodate a 747 and have LOX/RP1 storage and handling facilities.
Quote from: Nibb31 on 07/05/2016 01:19 pmLaunch location is always going to be limited by the number of airports that are both big enough to accomodate a 747 and have LOX/RP1 storage and handling facilities.The number of airports that can handle a 747 is pretty large. And RP-1 is similar enough to jet fuel that my guess is those accomodations will be pretty easy to come by. LOX is the only even remotely challenging one, and in the sizes they're dealing with can probably be handled by a LOX dewar truck from an industrial gas supplier.For air-launched LOX/RP-1 rockets in this size class, with this size of mothership, my guess is they could fly out of several dozen airports in the CONUS alone.~Jon
(3) All captive carry operations will originate from Vandenburg AFB; Wallops Flight Facility; Patrick AFB; Cape Canaveral AS; Kennedy Space Center; or the Bucholz Army Air Facility, United States Army Kwajalein Atoll, Marshall Islands. To a maximum extent possible, after departing these facilities airspace, in-flight operations involving the L-1011/Pegasus must be conducted over the ocean. Alternate abort landing sites for Vandenburg AFB are Edwards AFB and the Mojave Airport/Spaceport.
I would think the FAA wouldn't allow fully fueled rocket operations at most busy commercial airports... at least not without some pretty stringent restrictions like temporarily shutting down the airport for normal airport operations. It looks like even Pegasus is limited to specific government and/or military airports:http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/PHMSA/SPA_App/OfferDocuments/SP11215_2011021190.pdfQuote(3) All captive carry operations will originate from Vandenburg AFB; Wallops Flight Facility; Patrick AFB; Cape Canaveral AS; Kennedy Space Center; or the Bucholz Army Air Facility, United States Army Kwajalein Atoll, Marshall Islands. To a maximum extent possible, after departing these facilities airspace, in-flight operations involving the L-1011/Pegasus must be conducted over the ocean. Alternate abort landing sites for Vandenburg AFB are Edwards AFB and the Mojave Airport/Spaceport.
Quote from: jongoff on 07/05/2016 05:38 pmQuote from: Nibb31 on 07/05/2016 01:19 pmLaunch location is always going to be limited by the number of airports that are both big enough to accomodate a 747 and have LOX/RP1 storage and handling facilities.The number of airports that can handle a 747 is pretty large. And RP-1 is similar enough to jet fuel that my guess is those accomodations will be pretty easy to come by. LOX is the only even remotely challenging one, and in the sizes they're dealing with can probably be handled by a LOX dewar truck from an industrial gas supplier.For air-launched LOX/RP-1 rockets in this size class, with this size of mothership, my guess is they could fly out of several dozen airports in the CONUS alone.~JonI would think the FAA wouldn't allow fully fueled rocket operations at most busy commercial airports... at least not without some pretty stringent restrictions like temporarily shutting down the airport for normal airport operations. It looks like even Pegasus is limited to specific government and/or military airports:
I think you're thinking about this wrong. First off, solids by definition have the fuel and oxidizer premixed, and thus have a "quantity distance" associated with them based on past military experience. Quantity distance says "this system is equivalent to this much TNT, and therefore people need to be kept this far back from the system in this configuration". For solids by definition you always have that quantity distance issue, but for liquids, that only really becomes an issue when you have them close enough to each other that you could realistically mix them in a way to create an explosion.VG has a lot of options in this regard, including not loading both propellants into the vehicle on the ground, or only loading them out on a trim pad away from the main airport. When you have a 747-sized vehicle, fitting tanks inside that are big enough to completely fill one or the other propellant once airborne is probably pretty doable. You likely would want some sort of "top off" tank to compensate for LOX boiloff during flight, and this would just be a bigger version of the same. Or you could load LOX on the ground and transfer RP-1 in flight. Either of those would make the system have a negligible quantity-distance while on the ground. Or as I mentioned, loading one of the propellants only once you're away from other vehicles. Lots of ways of dealing with this, I just think that going off of how Pegasus was handled may not be the best guide for what is possible--especially if they're being smart about things.
This discussion is going in the opposite direction from the question at hand. It's not so much where they take off, but where the launch occurs.We know that 747s carry large payloads over enormous distances. It is likely that Cosmic Girl can carry Launcher One well out to sea, but VG says they are not going to do this. The plan is to launch from near the shore in all cases.They appear to be using the range assets of three USAF or NASA launch ranges, Vandenberg, KSC/CCAFS, and Wallops.Why?
Liquid propellants also have FAA storage siting and protection rules (generally based on TNT equivalent). Whether that storage is in a 747 or on the ground, similar rules would apply. The rules are covered under FAA CFR 420, License to Operate a Launch Site. As a launch license covers the time from start of ground operations--which presumably would include such--launch license regulations would also be a consideration.Presumably VG has already had those conversations with the FAA.
Quote from: joek on 07/05/2016 08:06 pmLiquid propellants also have FAA storage siting and protection rules (generally based on TNT equivalent). Whether that storage is in a 747 or on the ground, similar rules would apply. The rules are covered under FAA CFR 420, License to Operate a Launch Site. As a launch license covers the time from start of ground operations--which presumably would include such--launch license regulations would also be a consideration.Presumably VG has already had those conversations with the FAA.It's worth emphasising that storage rules would preclude operations like that from most (certainly busy) commercial airports anywhere in the world. As it stands now, there are heavy restrictions on where even fully-armed military aircraft are parked at commercial airports, let alone anything carrying a tank of LOX in close proximity to kerosene. Typically they'd have to find a rarely-used section of taxiway to park on, nowhere near any terminals or commercial operations.It's also possible import/export regulations on carriage of RP-1 might restrict VG's operations to mainland USA.
LOX Dewars are fairly routinely flown on C-17s (and of course there is LOX on the aircraft for breathing, too, see loading image below). The C-17 was designed with LOX cryo vents both port and starboard to permit such operations.
Quote from: HMXHMX on 07/06/2016 03:25 amLOX Dewars are fairly routinely flown on C-17s (and of course there is LOX on the aircraft for breathing, too, see loading image below). The C-17 was designed with LOX cryo vents both port and starboard to permit such operations. Interesting, but my point still stands: a LOX-carrying aircraft is likely to be restricted to flying from military/non-RPT airfields. ..and of course LOX isn't used for breathing air on a 747.
Quote from: dwheeler on 07/05/2016 06:40 pmI would think the FAA wouldn't allow fully fueled rocket operations at most busy commercial airports... at least not without some pretty stringent restrictions like temporarily shutting down the airport for normal airport operations. It looks like even Pegasus is limited to specific government and/or military airports:http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/PHMSA/SPA_App/OfferDocuments/SP11215_2011021190.pdfQuote(3) All captive carry operations will originate from Vandenburg AFB; Wallops Flight Facility; Patrick AFB; Cape Canaveral AS; Kennedy Space Center; or the Bucholz Army Air Facility, United States Army Kwajalein Atoll, Marshall Islands. To a maximum extent possible, after departing these facilities airspace, in-flight operations involving the L-1011/Pegasus must be conducted over the ocean. Alternate abort landing sites for Vandenburg AFB are Edwards AFB and the Mojave Airport/Spaceport.How was the launch from the Canaries possible, then? Is that just something they can't do anymore?
Quote from: HMXHMX on 07/06/2016 03:25 amLOX Dewars are fairly routinely flown on C-17s (and of course there is LOX on the aircraft for breathing, too, see loading image below). The C-17 was designed with LOX cryo vents both port and starboard to permit such operations. Pictured, I believe, are EC-130.
(snip)But going back to Comga's point, VG is going to have no lack of launch airport options. Even if they insisted on loading LOX into the rocket right at their hangar, the number of airports that could probably accomodate that is still well more than the 3-4 they actually need. The bigger question is why in that situation are they primarily flying out of traditional launch ranges when supposedly one of the benefits of air launch is not having to be tied to said ranges?~Jon
Quote from: jongoff on 07/06/2016 03:31 pm(snip)But going back to Comga's point, VG is going to have no lack of launch airport options. Even if they insisted on loading LOX into the rocket right at their hangar, the number of airports that could probably accomodate that is still well more than the 3-4 they actually need. The bigger question is why in that situation are they primarily flying out of traditional launch ranges when supposedly one of the benefits of air launch is not having to be tied to said ranges?~JonPreciselyMany states are supporting spaceports and others are trying to create them: Florida, Virginia, California, New Mexico, Texas, Georgia, Colorado, ...Airborne launch would seem to be able to locate in any of them with costal access. Why tie LauncherOne to existing range AND limit their versatility?There must be a technical or regulatory reason.
Quote from: Comga on 07/06/2016 04:21 pmQuote from: jongoff on 07/06/2016 03:31 pm(snip)But going back to Comga's point, VG is going to have no lack of launch airport options. Even if they insisted on loading LOX into the rocket right at their hangar, the number of airports that could probably accomodate that is still well more than the 3-4 they actually need. The bigger question is why in that situation are they primarily flying out of traditional launch ranges when supposedly one of the benefits of air launch is not having to be tied to said ranges?~JonPreciselyMany states are supporting spaceports and others are trying to create them: Florida, Virginia, California, New Mexico, Texas, Georgia, Colorado, ...Airborne launch would seem to be able to locate in any of them with costal access. Why tie LauncherOne to existing range AND limit their versatility?There must be a technical or regulatory reason.They could also be trying to start simple, and then evolve as capabilities get proven out? Maybe the rangeless range stuff from ALASA didn't make as much progress as it sounded like.~Jon