Quote from: JasonAW3 on 10/21/2014 06:20 pmQuote from: Rodal on 10/21/2014 05:59 pmWe now have separate confirmation in both China and the USA that thrust force measurements are related to the TRANSVERSE ELECTRIC modes, since their mode shape result in greater thrust force/PowerInput than the TRANSVERSE MAGNETIC mode shapes.This is a further challenge to explaining the measured thrust forces in these EM Drives as resulting from the magnetic field interacting with the Earth's magnetic field or with other magnetic fields (like the magnetic damper) It also explains why NASA Eagleworks explored resonance for the mode TE012It almost seems that the Magnetic field is interacting with Space itself in this case, much how gravity distorts spacethis configuration of a magnetic field appeasrs to be doing the same thing.This is my thinking:It is the electric field modes (not the magnetic modes) that show the greater Q and greater thrust, not the other way around. There is no such thing as "thrust" using classical Maxwell's equations. It is a closed system. The magnetic field vectors from both bases point towards the center. There is no net magnetic force on the center of mass using classical Maxwell's equations.If on the other hand, one uses non-classical physics it doesn't follow that the force must come from the magnetic field, on the contrary, for example McCulloch's explanation of inertial changes due to Unruh radiation, it is the photons inertia that matters.
Quote from: Rodal on 10/21/2014 05:59 pmWe now have separate confirmation in both China and the USA that thrust force measurements are related to the TRANSVERSE ELECTRIC modes, since their mode shape result in greater thrust force/PowerInput than the TRANSVERSE MAGNETIC mode shapes.This is a further challenge to explaining the measured thrust forces in these EM Drives as resulting from the magnetic field interacting with the Earth's magnetic field or with other magnetic fields (like the magnetic damper) It also explains why NASA Eagleworks explored resonance for the mode TE012It almost seems that the Magnetic field is interacting with Space itself in this case, much how gravity distorts spacethis configuration of a magnetic field appeasrs to be doing the same thing.
We now have separate confirmation in both China and the USA that thrust force measurements are related to the TRANSVERSE ELECTRIC modes, since their mode shape result in greater thrust force/PowerInput than the TRANSVERSE MAGNETIC mode shapes.This is a further challenge to explaining the measured thrust forces in these EM Drives as resulting from the magnetic field interacting with the Earth's magnetic field or with other magnetic fields (like the magnetic damper) It also explains why NASA Eagleworks explored resonance for the mode TE012
To enable propulsion one must have an open system: ... an external aether ...
QUESTION: Have you found any pictures? Any dimensions on the Chinese EM Drive?
Fa=Fa1-Fa2-Fa3cosθ. In order to obtain the largest thrust, the design of the cavity requires Fa1/Fa2 to be the largest, Fa3/Fa1 to be the smallest, so Fa≈Fa1-Fa2.
We now have separate confirmation in both China and the USA that thrust force measurements are related to the TRANSVERSE ELECTRIC modes, since their mode shape result in greater thrust force/PowerInput than the TRANSVERSE MAGNETIC mode shapes.This is a further challenge [ and a hint ] to explaining the measured thrust forces in these EM Drives as resulting from the magnetic field interacting with the Earth's magnetic field or with other magnetic fields (like the magnetic damper) It also explains why NASA Eagleworks explored resonance for the mode TE012 EDIT: Electric and magnetic fields are two interrelated aspects of the same electromagnetic tensor; the split of this tensor into electric and magnetic fields depends on the relative velocity of the observer and charge. Therefore my original wording (challenge to thought process) should be changed to "challenge and hint". It is a powerful hint to make us think as to what is going on.
Quote from: Rodal on 10/21/2014 05:59 pmWe now have separate confirmation in both China and the USA that thrust force measurements are related to the TRANSVERSE ELECTRIC modes, since their mode shape result in greater thrust force/PowerInput than the TRANSVERSE MAGNETIC mode shapes.This is a further challenge [ and a hint ] to explaining the measured thrust forces in these EM Drives as resulting from the magnetic field interacting with the Earth's magnetic field or with other magnetic fields (like the magnetic damper) It also explains why NASA Eagleworks explored resonance for the mode TE012 EDIT: Electric and magnetic fields are two interrelated aspects of the same electromagnetic tensor; the split of this tensor into electric and magnetic fields depends on the relative velocity of the observer and charge. Therefore my original wording (challenge to thought process) should be changed to "challenge and hint". It is a powerful hint to make us think as to what is going on.The electromagnetic fields, standing wave or otherwise, inside the cavity would not be expected to have any interaction with the geomagnetic field. First they are AC and second there is no current flowing in the air. So the claimed em mode is unrelated to any possible geomagnetic attraction. There would have to be a DC current loop somewhere for the anomalous thrust to be caused by interaction with the geomagnetic field. I also don't think the cavity's shape is the reason for the high Q and resonance at specific frequencies. It isn't a waveguide. It is just a shielded box. The resonant frequency is determined by the loop dimensions at the feedpoint or by a 1/4 λ length of Cu fastened to the box at one end. Here is a diagram of a cavity filter used in radio communication. The length of the inner Cu rod determines the resonant frequency. The cavity's size has little effect on the resonant frequency since changing the size only changes the parasitic capacitance by small amounts.One of the drawings of the em-drive device shows an inner can shape at the small end. It's possible that is what determines the resonant frequency and high Q. It would have to be made from Cu and be electrically connected to the cavity at one end.
So the complete total of all the photons in the cavity are giving their momentum up, and more, to thrust every second. How can that possible make sense. And even don't look at the energy. Unruh waves can't come close to making a big enough change in mass to cause lost mass to exceed the existing mass. (mi=m(1-L/4T)) For this to work, T would need to be equal to or less than L/4. There is one way of course but if I say "Tachyons," I'll likely be banned.
You know, this whole thing doesn't make any sense.For an ideal photon rocket F=P/c, = 3.3356E-09 Newtons per watt and for the EM thruster, it is F ~= P*Q/c. For the case, for example, of 850 watts with Q = 5900, P*Q/c = 16.7 mN, compared to the measured value of 16 mN. (They are not all that close but the range is 0.2 to 2, discounting Brady b" case with the Chinese cases approaching twice the total momentum of all the photons --- per second.So the complete total of all the photons in the cavity are giving their momentum up, and more, to thrust every second. How can that possible make sense. And even don't look at the energy. Unruh waves can't come close to making a big enough change in mass to cause lost mass to exceed the existing mass. (mi=m(1-L/4T)) For this to work, T would need to be equal to or less than L/4. There is one way of course but if I say "Tachyons," I'll likely be banned.
Transfer it all and you've transferred only half enough.
QuoteTransfer it all and you've transferred only half enough.No. I did not use a factor of 2. If I double momentum then transfer it all, I've transferred just enough. But if it bounces off the wall then how does it transfer outside the cavity?
Yes, we need more and better data. But if we assume the current data is in error then we've wasted 163 pages of discussion. If the current data is right then there is not enough momentum in the system provide the measured external thrust. Who knows of another mechanism to generate external force without momentum transfer or a reactive surface?Casimir effect but that is internal, I've never heard of an external Casimir effect. Maybe the Unruh effect sets up a perfectly conducting surface just nanometers from the cavity ends. That could generate the outside pressure imbalance that we need.
Maybe "somehow there is" a perfectly conducting surface set up just nanometers from the cavity ends. That could generate the outside pressure imbalance that we need.Could the ionized air and electrons from the wall interacting with the RF wave electric and magnetic fields do something like that?A mechanism like that would solve our momentum transfer problem as Casimir effect is an accepted phenomena and higher Q could conceivably force the "pseudo conductor plate of ionized something" closer to the wall. Decreasing plate separation increases Casimir force. That also fits.Of course their could be an oxidation layer on the copper, too.
Quote from: aero on 10/22/2014 04:06 pmMaybe "somehow there is" a perfectly conducting surface set up just nanometers from the cavity ends. That could generate the outside pressure imbalance that we need.Could the ionized air and electrons from the wall interacting with the RF wave electric and magnetic fields do something like that?A mechanism like that would solve our momentum transfer problem as Casimir effect is an accepted phenomena and higher Q could conceivably force the "pseudo conductor plate of ionized something" closer to the wall. Decreasing plate separation increases Casimir force. That also fits.Of course their could be an oxidation layer on the copper, too.No, there is no real and no virtual perfectly conducting wall a nanometer away from the cavity. No, ionized air and electrons cannot form such a "virtual wall" for a Casimir type effect. Not for a classic Casimir effect and much less for a dynamic Casimir effect. Ions in air cannot form something acting as a wall for the Casimir effect purpose.Were one to postulate ionized air discharge, a corona discharge essentially resulting in electrohydrodynamic thrust would be more likely. An opposite force to the direction of discharge acting at the location where the corona discharge is taking place.