In the short term a base in the clouds seems something we could do without too much trouble and cost.
Quote from: colbourne on 07/29/2022 12:17 pmIn the short term a base in the clouds seems something we could do without too much trouble and cost.That is by far the biggest understatement I've probably ever seen.Only a handful of countries have mastered the art of escaping the earth's surface with all the resources within fairly easy reach. The gravity in Venus's clouds is only slightly less than the earth's surface, no resources at hand to build multi stage rockets and no firm ground to bolt them to. And I'm only just beginning.
Quote from: daedalus1 on 08/10/2022 07:40 pmQuote from: colbourne on 07/29/2022 12:17 pmIn the short term a base in the clouds seems something we could do without too much trouble and cost.That is by far the biggest understatement I've probably ever seen.Only a handful of countries have mastered the art of escaping the earth's surface with all the resources within fairly easy reach. The gravity in Venus's clouds is only slightly less than the earth's surface, no resources at hand to build multi stage rockets and no firm ground to bolt them to. And I'm only just beginning.If this was going to be a one way mission, for people who want to live the rest of their lives on Venus or until technology makes return to Earth simpler, it would be possible to have one rocket (delta V is less than going to Mars) launch a habitat that was bouyant with breathable gases, but would allow suitably equipped crew to go outside with not much more than a rebreather and acid proof suit. Some resources could be extracted from the atmosphere. Much more energy available from solar than Mars, and plants could be grown in buoyant floating spheres. I think this could be much cheaper than going to Mars.
A floating orbital city at Venus would have to get all their supplies from Earth. A long way to travel.
Quote from: spacenut on 08/11/2022 04:00 pmA floating orbital city at Venus would have to get all their supplies from Earth. A long way to travel. Wouldn't that be quite challenging too? To get from venusian floating city to space you need a two stage reusable rocket.
Quote from: colbourne on 08/11/2022 02:09 pmQuote from: daedalus1 on 08/10/2022 07:40 pmQuote from: colbourne on 07/29/2022 12:17 pmIn the short term a base in the clouds seems something we could do without too much trouble and cost.That is by far the biggest understatement I've probably ever seen.Only a handful of countries have mastered the art of escaping the earth's surface with all the resources within fairly easy reach. The gravity in Venus's clouds is only slightly less than the earth's surface, no resources at hand to build multi stage rockets and no firm ground to bolt them to. And I'm only just beginning.If this was going to be a one way mission, for people who want to live the rest of their lives on Venus or until technology makes return to Earth simpler, it would be possible to have one rocket (delta V is less than going to Mars) launch a habitat that was bouyant with breathable gases, but would allow suitably equipped crew to go outside with not much more than a rebreather and acid proof suit. Some resources could be extracted from the atmosphere. Much more energy available from solar than Mars, and plants could be grown in buoyant floating spheres. I think this could be much cheaper than going to Mars.If you say it quick it's easy you don't have to think about it. Try building a floating habitat just above the earth's surface. Get back to me when you've done a prototype scale model, say 10 people, and keep it floating and supplied without taking anything from the earth's surface.
Quote from: daedalus1 on 08/11/2022 03:49 pmQuote from: colbourne on 08/11/2022 02:09 pmQuote from: daedalus1 on 08/10/2022 07:40 pmQuote from: colbourne on 07/29/2022 12:17 pmIn the short term a base in the clouds seems something we could do without too much trouble and cost.That is by far the biggest understatement I've probably ever seen.Only a handful of countries have mastered the art of escaping the earth's surface with all the resources within fairly easy reach. The gravity in Venus's clouds is only slightly less than the earth's surface, no resources at hand to build multi stage rockets and no firm ground to bolt them to. And I'm only just beginning.If this was going to be a one way mission, for people who want to live the rest of their lives on Venus or until technology makes return to Earth simpler, it would be possible to have one rocket (delta V is less than going to Mars) launch a habitat that was bouyant with breathable gases, but would allow suitably equipped crew to go outside with not much more than a rebreather and acid proof suit. Some resources could be extracted from the atmosphere. Much more energy available from solar than Mars, and plants could be grown in buoyant floating spheres. I think this could be much cheaper than going to Mars.If you say it quick it's easy you don't have to think about it. Try building a floating habitat just above the earth's surface. Get back to me when you've done a prototype scale model, say 10 people, and keep it floating and supplied without taking anything from the earth's surface.You mean like the Zeppelins built over 100 years ago that successfully circumvented the world.Plastics could be made from the gases that can be extracted from the atmosphere. Metals could potentially be extracted this way as well.
Quote from: colbourne on 08/12/2022 03:45 pmQuote from: daedalus1 on 08/11/2022 03:49 pmQuote from: colbourne on 08/11/2022 02:09 pmQuote from: daedalus1 on 08/10/2022 07:40 pmQuote from: colbourne on 07/29/2022 12:17 pmIn the short term a base in the clouds seems something we could do without too much trouble and cost.That is by far the biggest understatement I've probably ever seen.Only a handful of countries have mastered the art of escaping the earth's surface with all the resources within fairly easy reach. The gravity in Venus's clouds is only slightly less than the earth's surface, no resources at hand to build multi stage rockets and no firm ground to bolt them to. And I'm only just beginning.If this was going to be a one way mission, for people who want to live the rest of their lives on Venus or until technology makes return to Earth simpler, it would be possible to have one rocket (delta V is less than going to Mars) launch a habitat that was bouyant with breathable gases, but would allow suitably equipped crew to go outside with not much more than a rebreather and acid proof suit. Some resources could be extracted from the atmosphere. Much more energy available from solar than Mars, and plants could be grown in buoyant floating spheres. I think this could be much cheaper than going to Mars.If you say it quick it's easy you don't have to think about it. Try building a floating habitat just above the earth's surface. Get back to me when you've done a prototype scale model, say 10 people, and keep it floating and supplied without taking anything from the earth's surface.You mean like the Zeppelins built over 100 years ago that successfully circumvented the world.Plastics could be made from the gases that can be extracted from the atmosphere. Metals could potentially be extracted this way as well.No. They took all their resources from the surface of the earth, and didn't have to worry about an artificial atmosphere.They also landed many times.
The point to habitats in the Venusian atmosphere is that they may be the only near-term location besides large rotating well shielded space stations where humans can safely reproduce and live out long, natural lifetimes. …
There are a ridiculous number of other biomedical countermeasures that can solve this problem if 1/3rd gee isn’t enough all by itself.
Quote from: Robotbeat on 08/16/2022 07:26 pmThere are a ridiculous number of other biomedical countermeasures that can solve this problem if 1/3rd gee isn’t enough all by itself.For all intents and purposes, there are no medical countermeasures for those radiation environments on those timescales. Same goes for abnormalities induced by gestation in low-g environments.
The night for example is more than 200 days, how do you power it?
Radiation is not insignificant, no magnetic field.
Quote from: daedalus1 on 08/17/2022 06:37 amThe night for example is more than 200 days, how do you power it?The cloud-level atmosphere super-rotates, at the equatorial &/or temperate latitudes the clouds make a full rotation in 4 days.QuoteRadiation is not insignificant, no magnetic field.The bulk of the atmosphere screens UV, X-ray, gamma rays, cosmic radiation, etc., as Earth’s atmosphere does. Venus has an ionosphere and aurorae without an internally generated magnetosphere.What is lacking is water vapor and free oxygen. But there is a lot of carbon dioxide to screen sterilizing radiation.What I do not recall is the altitude where the atmospheric temperature most closely approximates Earth STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure).
There is absolutely no place in the solar system outside earth that you can have an environment like earth without being enclosed in some sort of bio shell.
All these things wherever they are will involve massive investment in construction and transport.
People who want to return to earth, seriously how?
One of the draws for people to colonize will be the human urge to explore, so that rules out Venus
But since we are talking about changing extremely large and complex systems on scales humanity has never purposefully attempted, I’m qualifying that as a belief, not an observation.