Author Topic: NASA’s Retiring Top Scientist Says We Can Terraform Mars and Maybe Venus, Too  (Read 33537 times)

Offline colbourne

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Building a large sunshield between the Sun and Venus would eventually freeze out the atmosphere. It might be easier to do than some of the other suggestions here.

In the short term a base in the clouds seems something we could do without too much trouble and cost.

Offline JoeFromRIUSA

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Why not wait till the sun starts expanding and things will take care of themselves? (At least in Mars' case.  Heavy sarcasm. I mean in due time, Europa and Titan will be habitable, right"?

Offline daedalus1

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In the short term a base in the clouds seems something we could do without too much trouble and cost.
That is by far the biggest understatement I've probably ever seen.
Only a handful of countries have mastered the art of escaping the earth's surface with all the resources within fairly easy reach. The gravity in Venus's clouds is only slightly less than the earth's surface, no resources at hand to build multi stage rockets and no firm ground to bolt them to. And I'm only just beginning.

Offline colbourne

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In the short term a base in the clouds seems something we could do without too much trouble and cost.
That is by far the biggest understatement I've probably ever seen.
Only a handful of countries have mastered the art of escaping the earth's surface with all the resources within fairly easy reach. The gravity in Venus's clouds is only slightly less than the earth's surface, no resources at hand to build multi stage rockets and no firm ground to bolt them to. And I'm only just beginning.
If this was going to be a one way mission, for people who want to live the rest of their lives on Venus or until technology makes return to Earth simpler, it would be possible to have one rocket (delta V is less than going to Mars) launch a habitat that was bouyant with breathable gases, but would allow suitably equipped crew to go outside with not much more than a rebreather and acid proof suit. Some resources could be extracted from the atmosphere. Much more energy available from solar than Mars, and plants could be grown in buoyant floating spheres. I think this could be much cheaper than going to Mars.

Offline daedalus1

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In the short term a base in the clouds seems something we could do without too much trouble and cost.
That is by far the biggest understatement I've probably ever seen.
Only a handful of countries have mastered the art of escaping the earth's surface with all the resources within fairly easy reach. The gravity in Venus's clouds is only slightly less than the earth's surface, no resources at hand to build multi stage rockets and no firm ground to bolt them to. And I'm only just beginning.
If this was going to be a one way mission, for people who want to live the rest of their lives on Venus or until technology makes return to Earth simpler, it would be possible to have one rocket (delta V is less than going to Mars) launch a habitat that was bouyant with breathable gases, but would allow suitably equipped crew to go outside with not much more than a rebreather and acid proof suit. Some resources could be extracted from the atmosphere. Much more energy available from solar than Mars, and plants could be grown in buoyant floating spheres. I think this could be much cheaper than going to Mars.
If you say it quick it's easy you don't have to think about it. Try building a floating habitat just above the earth's surface. Get back to me when you've done a prototype scale model, say 10 people, and keep it floating and supplied without taking anything from the earth's surface.

Offline spacenut

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It would be easier to build a giant O'Neil cylinder or Babylon 5 type city that to build a floating city on Venus.  A large space city could be in orbit around the moon or at one of the Lagrange points.  It could take some raw materials from the moon and water or methane from earth.  It could manufacture things that could be manufactured in zero G in the center, and people could live on the rotating sides.  Food could be grown there, etc.  Then there wouldn't be a gravity problem like living on the moon for people's health.  Same is true for a Martian orbital colony, especially for expectant mothers, childbirth, and raising young children. 

A floating orbital city at Venus would have to get all their supplies from Earth.  A long way to travel.  They might be able to get some CO2 from the Venus atmosphere for methane manufacturing for station keeping or such.  Water?  It would have to come from earth.  I just don't see this happening unless they get some type of sun shade built to lower the temperature of Venus to comfortable levels. 

Mars would be easier due to water being available.  It needs some radiation shielding and atmosphere building before people could go without spacesuits or carry oxygen around.  At least there you can use Martian materials to build underground habitats. 

Online JayWee

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A floating orbital city at Venus would have to get all their supplies from Earth.  A long way to travel.
Wouldn't that be quite challenging too? To get from venusian floating city to space you need a two stage reusable rocket.

Offline spacenut

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A floating orbital city at Venus would have to get all their supplies from Earth.  A long way to travel.
Wouldn't that be quite challenging too? To get from venusian floating city to space you need a two stage reusable rocket.

Unless it is very high in the atmosphere.  Also, Venus' gravity is about 1 G. 

I would see the moon, Mars, Ceres, the moons of Jupiter and Saturn way before Venus. 

Offline colbourne

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In the short term a base in the clouds seems something we could do without too much trouble and cost.
That is by far the biggest understatement I've probably ever seen.
Only a handful of countries have mastered the art of escaping the earth's surface with all the resources within fairly easy reach. The gravity in Venus's clouds is only slightly less than the earth's surface, no resources at hand to build multi stage rockets and no firm ground to bolt them to. And I'm only just beginning.
If this was going to be a one way mission, for people who want to live the rest of their lives on Venus or until technology makes return to Earth simpler, it would be possible to have one rocket (delta V is less than going to Mars) launch a habitat that was bouyant with breathable gases, but would allow suitably equipped crew to go outside with not much more than a rebreather and acid proof suit. Some resources could be extracted from the atmosphere. Much more energy available from solar than Mars, and plants could be grown in buoyant floating spheres. I think this could be much cheaper than going to Mars.
If you say it quick it's easy you don't have to think about it. Try building a floating habitat just above the earth's surface. Get back to me when you've done a prototype scale model, say 10 people, and keep it floating and supplied without taking anything from the earth's surface.
You mean like the Zeppelins built over 100 years ago that successfully circumvented the world.
Plastics could be made from the gases that can be extracted from the atmosphere. Metals could potentially be extracted this way as well.
« Last Edit: 08/12/2022 04:06 pm by colbourne »

Offline daedalus1

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In the short term a base in the clouds seems something we could do without too much trouble and cost.
That is by far the biggest understatement I've probably ever seen.
Only a handful of countries have mastered the art of escaping the earth's surface with all the resources within fairly easy reach. The gravity in Venus's clouds is only slightly less than the earth's surface, no resources at hand to build multi stage rockets and no firm ground to bolt them to. And I'm only just beginning.
If this was going to be a one way mission, for people who want to live the rest of their lives on Venus or until technology makes return to Earth simpler, it would be possible to have one rocket (delta V is less than going to Mars) launch a habitat that was bouyant with breathable gases, but would allow suitably equipped crew to go outside with not much more than a rebreather and acid proof suit. Some resources could be extracted from the atmosphere. Much more energy available from solar than Mars, and plants could be grown in buoyant floating spheres. I think this could be much cheaper than going to Mars.
If you say it quick it's easy you don't have to think about it. Try building a floating habitat just above the earth's surface. Get back to me when you've done a prototype scale model, say 10 people, and keep it floating and supplied without taking anything from the earth's surface.
You mean like the Zeppelins built over 100 years ago that successfully circumvented the world.
Plastics could be made from the gases that can be extracted from the atmosphere. Metals could potentially be extracted this way as well.
No. They took all their resources from the surface of the earth, and didn't have to worry about an artificial atmosphere.
They also landed many times.

Offline Slarty1080

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In the short term a base in the clouds seems something we could do without too much trouble and cost.
That is by far the biggest understatement I've probably ever seen.
Only a handful of countries have mastered the art of escaping the earth's surface with all the resources within fairly easy reach. The gravity in Venus's clouds is only slightly less than the earth's surface, no resources at hand to build multi stage rockets and no firm ground to bolt them to. And I'm only just beginning.
If this was going to be a one way mission, for people who want to live the rest of their lives on Venus or until technology makes return to Earth simpler, it would be possible to have one rocket (delta V is less than going to Mars) launch a habitat that was bouyant with breathable gases, but would allow suitably equipped crew to go outside with not much more than a rebreather and acid proof suit. Some resources could be extracted from the atmosphere. Much more energy available from solar than Mars, and plants could be grown in buoyant floating spheres. I think this could be much cheaper than going to Mars.
If you say it quick it's easy you don't have to think about it. Try building a floating habitat just above the earth's surface. Get back to me when you've done a prototype scale model, say 10 people, and keep it floating and supplied without taking anything from the earth's surface.
You mean like the Zeppelins built over 100 years ago that successfully circumvented the world.
Plastics could be made from the gases that can be extracted from the atmosphere. Metals could potentially be extracted this way as well.
No. They took all their resources from the surface of the earth, and didn't have to worry about an artificial atmosphere.
They also landed many times.
I think its fair to say that a floating habitat on Venus is feasible in theory, but would be extremely challenging to build (to say the least). Future technological developments might make it easier but there are many very difficult issues to resolve.
My optimistic hope is that it will become cool to really think about things... rather than just doing reactive bullsh*t based on no knowledge (Brian Cox)

Offline VSECOTSPE

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The point to habitats in the Venusian atmosphere is that they may be the only near-term location besides large rotating well shielded space stations where humans can safely reproduce and live out long, natural lifetimes.  1/3g at Mars and 1/6g at the Moon may not be safe for embryonic development, and living out lives away from cosmic radiation underground may not be viable either.  (We don’t live decades in caves or underwater habitats).

No doubt, resources will be more of an issue at Venus than at Mars or the Moon.  But that will be a secondary concern for long-term settlement if generations cannot safely reproduce and live in the latter environments.

FWIW…

Offline Robotbeat

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The point to habitats in the Venusian atmosphere is that they may be the only near-term location besides large rotating well shielded space stations where humans can safely reproduce and live out long, natural lifetimes.  …
“Natural” being maybe the key word there. There are a ridiculous number of other biomedical countermeasures that can solve this problem if 1/3rd gee isn’t enough all by itself.

Humans haven’t been “natural” since the invention of cooking and clothing.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline VSECOTSPE

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There are a ridiculous number of other biomedical countermeasures that can solve this problem if 1/3rd gee isn’t enough all by itself.

For all intents and purposes, there are no medical countermeasures for those radiation environments on those timescales.  Same goes for abnormalities induced by gestation in low-g environments.

Offline daedalus1

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There are a ridiculous number of other biomedical countermeasures that can solve this problem if 1/3rd gee isn’t enough all by itself.

For all intents and purposes, there are no medical countermeasures for those radiation environments on those timescales.  Same goes for abnormalities induced by gestation in low-g environments.

There is absolutely no place in the solar system outside earth that you can have an environment like earth without being enclosed in some sort of bio shell. All these things wherever they are will involve massive investment in construction and transport. Saying floating habitats on Venus is the 'easiest' is crazy. The night for example is more than 200 days, how do you power it? Radiation is not insignificant, no magnetic field. People who want to return to earth, seriously how? One of the draws for people to colonize will be the human urge to explore, so that rules out Venus also and space stations.
I could go on.

Online zubenelgenubi

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The night for example is more than 200 days, how do you power it?
The cloud-level atmosphere super-rotates, at the equatorial &/or temperate latitudes the clouds make a full rotation in 4 days.

Quote
Radiation is not insignificant, no magnetic field.
The bulk of the atmosphere screens UV, X-ray, gamma rays, cosmic radiation, etc., as Earth’s atmosphere does.  Venus has an ionosphere and aurorae without an internally generated magnetosphere.

What is lacking is water vapor and free oxygen. But there is a lot of carbon dioxide to screen sterilizing radiation.

What I do not recall is the altitude where the atmosphere most closely approximates Earth STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure).
« Last Edit: 08/17/2022 10:47 am by zubenelgenubi »
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Offline Lampyridae

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The night for example is more than 200 days, how do you power it?
The cloud-level atmosphere super-rotates, at the equatorial &/or temperate latitudes the clouds make a full rotation in 4 days.

Quote
Radiation is not insignificant, no magnetic field.
The bulk of the atmosphere screens UV, X-ray, gamma rays, cosmic radiation, etc., as Earth’s atmosphere does.  Venus has an ionosphere and aurorae without an internally generated magnetosphere.

What is lacking is water vapor and free oxygen. But there is a lot of carbon dioxide to screen sterilizing radiation.

What I do not recall is the altitude where the atmospheric temperature most closely approximates Earth STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure).

It works out to about 50km. But it's kind of hot at that level still, so it could work out to be more like 52km.

The amount of H2O in the atmosphere, while small, is about a tenth the concentration of CO2 in our own. Since it's a lot easier to get water vapour out of a gas (ie, condensation), it's not going to be a showstopper unless you need lakes of the stuff.

Surface mining can probably be done in a kind of smash-and-grab way, dropping down a harvester and calling in a carryall before the heat gets to be too much.

Offline VSECOTSPE

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There is absolutely no place in the solar system outside earth that you can have an environment like earth without being enclosed in some sort of bio shell.

There are shells and then there are shells.  At the right altitude in the Venusian atmosphere, you don’t need a pressure suit or thermal management because the ambient pressure and temperature is similar to Earth environments.  You still need an oxygen supply and skin covering to protect from lengthy exposure to corrosive chemicals in the atmosphere.  But you wouldn’t have to wear a lunar suit like at the Moon or Mars.  More like something approaching a SCUBA suit.

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All these things wherever they are will involve massive investment in construction and transport.

Of course.  But with 0.9g and protection from cosmic radiation, the Venusian troposphere poses a lot fewer long-term health risks than other locations like the Moon and Mars.  If you want to bear healthy children and have them reach middle age without cancer and without living decades underground, the Earth and the Venusian stratosphere may be the only two naturally occurring environments in the solar system where that can be done.

I’m not saying it will make economic sense.  I’m not saying that a lot of people would want to live on Venusian aerostats.  I’m just saying that if the goal is true, long-term, multi-generational settlement, the Venusian troposphere may be the only naturally occurring environment off Earth where that can happen.

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The night for example is more than 200 days, how do you power it?

We’re talking about aerostats in the Venusian atmosphere.  They’ll circle that globe once or twice per Earth week.  We’re not talking about surface habitats, where the thick cloud cover would probably make solar impractical (forget the night).

And there’s always nuclear, in any case.

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Radiation is not insignificant, no magnetic field.

The thick Venusian atmosphere grants much greater protection from space radiation than at Mars or the Moon.

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People who want to return to earth, seriously how?

NASA Langley’s HAVOC human Venus atmosphere exploration mission study baselined an air-launched, two-stage, LOX/methane ascent vehicle.  The methane could be produced from the Venusian atmosphere.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Christopher-Jones-54/publication/299905943_High_Altitude_Venus_Operational_Concept_HAVOC_An_Exploration_Strategy_for_Venus/links/5c6388e492851c48a9cfc25b/High-Altitude-Venus-Operational-Concept-HAVOC-An-Exploration-Strategy-for-Venus.pdf?origin=publication_detail

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One of the draws for people to colonize will be the human urge to explore, so that rules out Venus

See HAVOC study above.
« Last Edit: 08/18/2022 08:54 pm by VSECOTSPE »

Offline Lampyridae

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Venus has an interesting situation where there is a massive abundance of energy. In the cloudtops, you get almost as much light from underneath as you do from overhead, so pretty much any surface will be illuminated and can be covered with solar cells. The atmosphere itself might also be a source of power, beyond something like tethered high-altitude windmills. Temperature differences within the atmosphere (8K/km) might allow for some kind of massive, airborne version of OTEC.

At 1 bar, the only real places to be able to walk around the exterior of an aerostat without some kind of cooling is near the poles, at about 80 degrees latitude. Temperatures do actually drop during the night, though (and actually get kind of chilly at night despite the enormous greenhouse effect). So there's probably going to be quite a bit of weather going on, and perhaps condensation harvesting.

Though I think Venus aerostats really have their own thread in Advanced Concepts.


Offline JohnFornaro

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But since we are talking about changing extremely large and complex systems on scales humanity has never purposefully attempted, I’m qualifying that as a belief, not an observation. 

Points awarded for accurately differentiating beliefs from observations.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

 

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