Quote from: Lar on 06/11/2018 05:55 pmQuote from: envy887 on 06/11/2018 01:57 pmIt sounds to me like available raw materials will be the most limiting factor. We know how (or can figure out how) to build almost anything, if the right raw materials are available.Tooling is right behind that though... closure is important.If (as the thread seems to be presuming) you need indefinite operating life without resupply then in principle anything that depends on something never wearing out is a weak link.It's not necessarily the big items that are the problem. They can probably be built up a section at a time. It's the small items. Grinding wheels, cutting tools etc.
Quote from: envy887 on 06/11/2018 01:57 pmIt sounds to me like available raw materials will be the most limiting factor. We know how (or can figure out how) to build almost anything, if the right raw materials are available.Tooling is right behind that though... closure is important.
It sounds to me like available raw materials will be the most limiting factor. We know how (or can figure out how) to build almost anything, if the right raw materials are available.
Quote from: Lar on 06/11/2018 05:55 pmQuote from: envy887 on 06/11/2018 01:57 pmIt sounds to me like available raw materials will be the most limiting factor. We know how (or can figure out how) to build almost anything, if the right raw materials are available.Tooling is right behind that though... closure is important.Sure. But you can build tooling on Mars, or ship it there from Earth. Shipping tooling (even very heavy, expensive, complicated tooling) is a lot more efficient than shipping raw materials, for most industries.
That is why the tooling needs to be able to build the replacement tooling.
Quote from: john smith 19 on 06/10/2018 06:25 pmsnip...The upside is this reduces the (very) large number of unique parts. The downside is they are no longer COTS parts, they are bespoke "Mars grade" systems. Beyond tables and chairs most things will have to be "Mars grade" rather than COTS. Although many "Moon grade" items may work.
snip...The upside is this reduces the (very) large number of unique parts. The downside is they are no longer COTS parts, they are bespoke "Mars grade" systems.
{snip}Quote from: A_M_Swallow on 06/11/2018 08:48 pmThat is why the tooling needs to be able to build the replacement tooling.That's the closure problem in a nutshell. I think we can and will solve it to get to 99.99% closure but that last bit is hard.
Quote from: envy887 on 06/11/2018 06:07 pmQuote from: Lar on 06/11/2018 05:55 pmQuote from: envy887 on 06/11/2018 01:57 pmIt sounds to me like available raw materials will be the most limiting factor. We know how (or can figure out how) to build almost anything, if the right raw materials are available.Tooling is right behind that though... closure is important.Sure. But you can build tooling on Mars, or ship it there from Earth. Shipping tooling (even very heavy, expensive, complicated tooling) is a lot more efficient than shipping raw materials, for most industries.I don't mean tooling in the sense of presses to stamp out rover fenders.I mean closure. The tools you must have to make the tools to make the tools to make the tooling. The very precise things that are hard to duplicate with less accurate things (how do you make a new micrometer if you don't have a precise way to cut or measure?)The chemicals and elements you need to make the raw stock that you need to make things out of... etc.Steampunk ideas take the tech level down but closure is still a hard problem although somewhat easier. If you can get the last .1% of mass from earth, you can always get the really hard to come by things but if you're talking about an earthly apocalypse, you can't. Quote from: A_M_Swallow on 06/11/2018 08:48 pmThat is why the tooling needs to be able to build the replacement tooling.That's the closure problem in a nutshell. I think we can and will solve it to get to 99.99% closure but that last bit is hard.
The same way you do it on Earth. Send the most precise things available, that are needed to create the most precise things available. It's not like a self-sufficient Mars colony is only going to have one micrometer, or one scanning electron microscope. It will need all the complex industries from Earth, from chemicals to agriculture to electronics. Without a local highly concentrated energy source, I think it's rather unlikely that a low-tech martian civilization is even possible.
Quote from: envy887 on 06/12/2018 01:40 pmThe same way you do it on Earth. Send the most precise things available, that are needed to create the most precise things available. It's not like a self-sufficient Mars colony is only going to have one micrometer, or one scanning electron microscope. It will need all the complex industries from Earth, from chemicals to agriculture to electronics. Without a local highly concentrated energy source, I think it's rather unlikely that a low-tech martian civilization is even possible.That is the big enabler of industrial society. Charcoal gave way to coal, which gave way to coke and oil. This is why Methane Clathrates are such a potential game changer. They turn Mars into an energy rich (provided you can generate O2) environment, rather than an energy poor one.
Quote from: john smith 19 on 06/12/2018 08:20 pmQuote from: envy887 on 06/12/2018 01:40 pmThe same way you do it on Earth. Send the most precise things available, that are needed to create the most precise things available. It's not like a self-sufficient Mars colony is only going to have one micrometer, or one scanning electron microscope. It will need all the complex industries from Earth, from chemicals to agriculture to electronics. Without a local highly concentrated energy source, I think it's rather unlikely that a low-tech martian civilization is even possible.That is the big enabler of industrial society. Charcoal gave way to coal, which gave way to coke and oil. This is why Methane Clathrates are such a potential game changer. They turn Mars into an energy rich (provided you can generate O2) environment, rather than an energy poor one. But producing oxygen will take energy, so you can hardly consider methane as an energy source.The available long term energy sources on Mars are :-SolarWind, but very low air density means a massive windmill would be needed.Possibly geothermal, but Mars is mainly inactive.I presume there will be nuclear energy potential rocks, if we can find them.
Quote from: envy887 on 06/12/2018 01:40 pmWithout a local highly concentrated energy source, I think it's rather unlikely that a low-tech martian civilization is even possible.That is the big enabler of industrial society. Charcoal gave way to coal, which gave way to coke and oil. This is why Methane Clathrates are such a potential game changer. They turn Mars into an energy rich (provided you can generate O2) environment, rather than an energy poor one.
Without a local highly concentrated energy source, I think it's rather unlikely that a low-tech martian civilization is even possible.
Quote from: colbourne on 06/13/2018 03:21 amThe available long term energy sources on Mars are :-SolarWind, but very low air density means a massive windmill would be needed.Possibly geothermal, but Mars is mainly inactive.I presume there will be nuclear energy potential rocks, if we can find them.The low tech methods is to pump as much atmosphere into tent as possible and put some plants inside it to let them convert the CO2 to O2, freezing out the CO2 for reuse
The available long term energy sources on Mars are :-SolarWind, but very low air density means a massive windmill would be needed.Possibly geothermal, but Mars is mainly inactive.I presume there will be nuclear energy potential rocks, if we can find them.
Quote from: john smith 19 on 06/12/2018 08:20 pmQuote from: envy887 on 06/12/2018 01:40 pmWithout a local highly concentrated energy source, I think it's rather unlikely that a low-tech martian civilization is even possible.That is the big enabler of industrial society. Charcoal gave way to coal, which gave way to coke and oil. This is why Methane Clathrates are such a potential game changer. They turn Mars into an energy rich (provided you can generate O2) environment, rather than an energy poor one. Would be nice if they could find a source of silane (SiH4) as that will burn in carbon dioxide! But given its chemical nature it seems unlikely there would be large deposits of it so probably best not to plan on its availability! Quote from: john smith 19 on 06/13/2018 05:58 amQuote from: colbourne on 06/13/2018 03:21 amThe available long term energy sources on Mars are :-SolarWind, but very low air density means a massive windmill would be needed.Possibly geothermal, but Mars is mainly inactive.I presume there will be nuclear energy potential rocks, if we can find them.The low tech methods is to pump as much atmosphere into tent as possible and put some plants inside it to let them convert the CO2 to O2, freezing out the CO2 for reuseThe plants could also be used to make biofuels.
Quote from: CuddlyRocket on 06/13/2018 10:50 pmsnip...The plants could also be used to make biofuels.Biofuel is just converted solar energy. And I don't think it's concentrated enough to make low tech self sufficiency possible, at least not with a massive level of effort that would just as easily enable high tech self sufficiency.
snip...The plants could also be used to make biofuels.
Does the current dust storm (and threat to Opportunity) indicate that nuclear power will be required for a settlement? Is there any reasonable way that a solar-powered base could make it through what Opportunity is experiencing without a huge amount of impractically heavy battery backup?
Quote from: Tulse on 06/14/2018 02:29 pmDoes the current dust storm (and threat to Opportunity) indicate that nuclear power will be required for a settlement? Is there any reasonable way that a solar-powered base could make it through what Opportunity is experiencing without a huge amount of impractically heavy battery backup?No.https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=45597.msg1830804#msg1830804
Would be nice if they could find a source of silane (SiH4) as that will burn in carbon dioxide! But given its chemical nature it seems unlikely there would be large deposits of it so probably best not to plan on its availability!
There has been a lot of discussion about sunlight being insufficient on Mars for the effective growing of plants for food, and that sunlight needs to be supplemented or replaced by LED's etc, using electric power from... Nuclear, solar, chemical storage, battery storage, etc. (to increase intensity)So unless large transparent structures can be made very cheaply, and plants found, or engineered, to grow sufficiently prolifically under sunlight, and without (much) energy input, biofuels can not be a (significant) way of capturing solar energy for input into the Mars "economy".
The serious energy release comes when the O2 is burnt with the Methane from the Clathrate deposits.
I am not suggesting that they should try to get by with Victorian technology. I am trying to plan a Mars base that could survive and develop with out support from Earth.
I just thought that by using much simpler and maintainable systems, would provide a better chance of succeeding.
It might even be possible to have a totally electricity free base, although it would be very uncomfortable.
If solar panels and LEDs could be made on Mars they should be used.