Author Topic: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield  (Read 84685 times)

Offline su27k

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SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« on: 11/14/2022 10:17 am »
On SpaceX's job listing on Greenhouse, a new department called "Starshield" is added, currently the jobs in it are all related to satellite.

SpaceX also filed a new trademark application for "Starshield" on 10/29/2022 with the following Goods and Services descriptions:

Quote
Global positioning system using satellite constellations; Internet server; Telecommunication hardware, namely, devices that allow wireless connection to global communication networks and wireless connection of electronic devices to global communication networks; Computer software to enable the transmission of information in the fields of meteorology, climatology, geography, topography, oceanography, and human and animal migration to telecommunications networks and navigation devices; Computer software to enable wireless connection to global communication networks and wireless connection of electronic devices to global communication networks; Electronic global positioning and geo-location systems devices, namely, global positioning satellite-based receivers; *all of the foregoing excluding the US government's global positioning systems; Equipment for receiving, processing, and transmitting voice, video, data and information via telecommunications and wireless signals, satellites, and computers, namely, satellite receivers, satellite receiver modules, transmitters of electronic signals, multiplexers, decoding boxes, data processors, integrated circuits; Computer operating hardware and software for use in the aforementioned goods, satellite terminals, and satellite earth stations

Internet service provider (ISP) services; Satellite telecommunications services, namely, transmission of a wireless internet signal via satellites; Providing third party users with access to satellite telecommunications infrastructure; Telecommunication services, namely, transmission and delivery of digital data, light files, sound files, data, information and image signals, by means of computer and satellite networks; Collecting and transmitting real-time data and images obtained via satellites and space vehicles; Satellite communication and transmission services; Wireless broadband communication services; Transmission of data, voice and video via satellite; Interactive satellite communication services; Delivery of messages by electronic transmission; Providing telecommunications connections to the Internet; Telecommunications gateway services; Providing high-speed wireless internet access; Providing multiple-user access to the internet, global computer networks, and electronic communications networks; Providing access to global computer information networks; Telecommunications services, namely, transmission of voice, data, graphics, images, audio and video by means of telecommunications networks, wireless communication networks, and the Internet; Providing a website featuring information in the field of satellite telecommunications services; Providing a website featuring information in the field of providing internet access via satellite

Providing information in the fields of meteorology, climatology, geography, topography, oceanography, and human and animal migration via telecommunications networks and satellite aided navigation devices; Providing global positioning and geo-location information via wireless and satellite networks, excluding the US government's global positioning systems; Providing a website featuring geographic data and images obtained via satellites and space vehicles

Cloud storage services for electronic data and files; Cloud computing services; Cloud computing featuring software for collecting, tracking, monitoring and analyzing data obtained via satellites and space vehicles in the fields of meteorology, climatology, geography, topography, oceanography, human and animal migration; Cloud computing featuring software for enabling and managing simultaneous, multiple modes of communication via satellites; Cloud computing featuring software for use in connection with data processing, data storage, data capture, data collection, data warehousing, data management, data mining, database analytics, and secure data sharing; Satellite telecommunications technology service; Design, development, and maintenance of telecommunications networks, software and apparatus in the field of satellite communications; Providing information in the fields of meteorology, climatology, geography, topography, oceanography, and human and animal migration via telecommunication networks and wireless navigation devices; Providing online computer mapping services; Research and development of technology in the field of satellite communications; Engineering services in the field of satellite communications; Scientific research; Scientific and technological services, namely, scientific research and analysis of data in the fields of meteorology, climatology, geography, topography, and oceanography; Electronic monitoring of environmental and atmospheric conditions using satellites and sensors; Remote sensing services, namely, aerial surveying through the use of satellites; Searching and retrieving information, sites, and other resources available on computer networks for others in relation to satellite data, recordings, and measurements; Providing information concerning satellite internet services via a global information network

The Goods and Services is similar to Starlink, the "Shield" thing makes it sounds like military related, could be dedicated military branch of Starlink?
« Last Edit: 11/14/2022 10:34 am by su27k »

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #1 on: 11/14/2022 03:30 pm »
Yes, the blurb on a job posting seems to make it clear that this is the military-related offerings, including comms and sensor platform.

Quote
As a DSP engineer on the SpaceX satellite R&D project team, you will be a part of a mission to provide global connectivity to the US government including immediate access to critical intelligence and national security data anywhere it is needed. You will work with a team of RF engineers, DSP engineers, software engineers, hardware engineers and end users to design and build systems for proliferated sensing in low earth orbit. You will work in a highly collaborative and fast-paced environment, where we are exploring unsolved problems and applying the SpaceX mindset of iterating rapidly to go from design and demo to operational capability at lightning pace.

https://boards.greenhouse.io/spacex/jobs/6455306002?gh_jid=6455306002

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #2 on: 11/14/2022 04:43 pm »
Makes me think of this is the concentration of the satellite software and protocols to collect/distribute info/data. Including design of protocols all to help more easily feed data packet streams into and out of the Microsoft Cloud specialized global services. For which Microsoft has paired with Starlink over a year ago.

It also increases the opening of the cis LEO continuous comm capabilities model. Which can also greatly drop the cost of high data rates for organizations like colleges and even high schools to operate and gather data from their cubesats and for others that have more significant sats as well that will also likely affect the worldwide only partial comm and tracking data of the commercial, educational and scientific sat assets. The cubesat or etc operater just logs into Microsoft Azure and it gives a immediate access to the sat for upload and interaction. All downloaded data is continuously collected and stored in the Microsoft cloud and is accessible through the Internet login from practically anywhere in the world.

Also there may be a advanced concepts from the standpoint of what can be learned by combining and analyzing collected data from multiple sources from multiple sats close to or even at same time observing same with different instruments. This can bring a rapid expansion of knowledge about our world as well as near space around our world. Eventually when such constellation high bandwidth comm sats become available in cis lunar and eventual like at Mars the explosion of information keeps expanding and the needs for analysis services, collection, storage, and distribution will grow grately as well.

This Starshield service can be a rapid expanding service business case in itself when combined with a powerful and large cloud computing and storage service. Its expansion will also expand the paired cloud services provider immensely as well.

Never forget Musk is a visionary in what can be with new and smart use of existing technology combined with aggressive business expansion to lower costs across the board.

Offline Hog

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #3 on: 11/14/2022 04:54 pm »


The Goods and Services is similar to Starlink, the "Shield" thing makes it sounds like military related, could be dedicated military branch of Starlink?
Or some sort of product warranty company.   ""Buy your brand new Elon merch and have your investment covered by the optional "StarShield" lifetime warranty.  It's outta this world.""

With a name like that, it could also be a prophylactic company.  ""Too much Starlinking without using StarShield leads to too many mini-Musks being delivered via StarStorks.""
Paul

Offline Asteroza

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #4 on: 11/15/2022 12:13 am »
It could be SDA Constellation++ transport layer, coexisting on civil Starlink. They basically bailed out of that constellation as is, probably under the valid assumption they can do better, faster, using an extant megaconstellation. Also implying a giant middle finger to core network interoperability, which is the heart of SDA's constellation due to it's heterogeneous nature.

The RF job description description basically says abuse Starlink's SDR's and phased array antennas for fun and profit.

The current planned SDA constellation is "small", and it's obvious the US government won't shell out for a private independent megaconstellation but like any glutton, wants that sweet sweet military capability. Also, data use expands to fill capacity. Field units are already getting a taste with BACN nodes as it is, next they want 8K gorgon stare video on demand.

If Musk honestly believes Gen2 has enough routable/spare capacity (which implies redlining straight to the 42k sats), then this will become an additional money printer that goes brrrrrrrrrrrrt.

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #5 on: 11/15/2022 01:16 am »
Musk's comparison on Starlink V2 sats to the V1.5s is that the Starship deployed V2s have 10X the sat to ground throughput of the V1.5 sats. Likely delivery being of about 60 too 72 of them (possibly a few more) per Starship launch at about 15 to 30 launches per year starting somewhere close to 2024 and increase launch rate rapidly each year after that. Prior to that just a few launches to test deployment and the sats design in groups of 24, 48 or 72 as Starship capabilities improve in 2023 and 2024. We shall see just how fast things actual unfold though which may be slightly slower. Although the deployment of the first gen group of 4400 or I should say first half was to be by April 2024 of some 2200 sats. All 4400 sats will be up and operational by at least mid year 2023 now. a full 6 years ahead of schedule. So other than Starship mass use. V2's will begin deployment in 2023 on F9 of the 4X throughput increase version at about 25+ sats per launch.

So even with V2s start arriving on orbit soon as in less than a year from now. V2 deployments will remain far behind the demand curve for quite some time as in multiple years. This new Starshield service could also exacerbate that demand curve which may or may not affect any price subscription reductions until much later just due to demand.
« Last Edit: 11/15/2022 01:17 am by oldAtlas_Eguy »

Offline su27k

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #6 on: 11/15/2022 01:28 am »
It could be SDA Constellation++ transport layer, coexisting on civil Starlink. They basically bailed out of that constellation as is, probably under the valid assumption they can do better, faster, using an extant megaconstellation. Also implying a giant middle finger to core network interoperability, which is the heart of SDA's constellation due to it's heterogeneous nature.

I very much agree with the assessment wrt SDA constellation here, although I do wonder if SpaceX has a contract for this new service or not. We haven't seen any contract or intention from DoD to buy something like this, and I'm not sure SpaceX would invest their own money into this without a firm commitment from DoD.

Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #7 on: 11/15/2022 04:19 am »
I don't think a military application needs a trade mark...

But a general law-enforcement system that is basically aimed at municipalities definitely needs to be marketed...

Real-time fire detection, for example, or traffic monitoring.  Your eye-in-the-sky, 24/7.

From a PR perspective, these are things that will make people nervous, and therefore need to be given a reassuring name like "shield".
« Last Edit: 11/17/2022 09:07 pm by meekGee »
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Offline raptorx2

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #8 on: 11/19/2022 03:52 am »
Likely delivery being of about 60 too 72 of them (possibly a few more) per Starship launch at about 15 to 30 launches per year starting somewhere close to 2024 and increase launch rate rapidly each year after that. Prior to that just a few launches to test deployment and the sats design in groups of 24, 48 or 72 as Starship capabilities improve in 2023 and 2024.

But, Iridium provides "Global Coverage" with near polor orbits  (86 degree direct inclination) 6 planes/11 satellites per plane at 780km.  66 active satellites. 

V2.0 shows  18 planes, with 18 satellites per plane. with a retrograde inclination of 115 degrees at 614km 324 satellites total.

If they could launch 72 satellites per launch, they could populate 4 planes per launch (obviously up to 1 year to phase the satellites into the 4 planes.) So it would take ~5 launches to populate the 614km tranche of V2.0 satellites providing perhaps initial global Direct to Handset services with CMRS payloads?

Offline bulkmail

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #9 on: 11/22/2022 11:08 am »
On SpaceX's job listing on Greenhouse, a new department called "Starshield" is added, currently the jobs in it are all related to satellite.

SpaceX also filed a new trademark application for "Starshield" on 10/29/2022 with the following Goods and Services descriptions:

Quote
Global positioning system using satellite constellations; Internet server; Telecommunication hardware, namely, devices that allow wireless connection to global communication networks and wireless connection of electronic devices to global communication networks; Computer software to enable the transmission of information in the fields of meteorology, climatology, geography, topography, oceanography, and human and animal migration to telecommunications networks and navigation devices; Computer software to enable wireless connection to global communication networks and wireless connection of electronic devices to global communication networks; Electronic global positioning and geo-location systems devices, namely, global positioning satellite-based receivers; *all of the foregoing excluding the US government's global positioning systems; Equipment for receiving, processing, and transmitting voice, video, data and information via telecommunications and wireless signals, satellites, and computers, namely, satellite receivers, satellite receiver modules, transmitters of electronic signals, multiplexers, decoding boxes, data processors, integrated circuits; Computer operating hardware and software for use in the aforementioned goods, satellite terminals, and satellite earth stations

Internet service provider (ISP) services; Satellite telecommunications services, namely, transmission of a wireless internet signal via satellites; Providing third party users with access to satellite telecommunications infrastructure; Telecommunication services, namely, transmission and delivery of digital data, light files, sound files, data, information and image signals, by means of computer and satellite networks; Collecting and transmitting real-time data and images obtained via satellites and space vehicles; Satellite communication and transmission services; Wireless broadband communication services; Transmission of data, voice and video via satellite; Interactive satellite communication services; Delivery of messages by electronic transmission; Providing telecommunications connections to the Internet; Telecommunications gateway services; Providing high-speed wireless internet access; Providing multiple-user access to the internet, global computer networks, and electronic communications networks; Providing access to global computer information networks; Telecommunications services, namely, transmission of voice, data, graphics, images, audio and video by means of telecommunications networks, wireless communication networks, and the Internet; Providing a website featuring information in the field of satellite telecommunications services; Providing a website featuring information in the field of providing internet access via satellite

Providing information in the fields of meteorology, climatology, geography, topography, oceanography, and human and animal migration via telecommunications networks and satellite aided navigation devices; Providing global positioning and geo-location information via wireless and satellite networks, excluding the US government's global positioning systems; Providing a website featuring geographic data and images obtained via satellites and space vehicles

Cloud storage services for electronic data and files; Cloud computing services; Cloud computing featuring software for collecting, tracking, monitoring and analyzing data obtained via satellites and space vehicles in the fields of meteorology, climatology, geography, topography, oceanography, human and animal migration; Cloud computing featuring software for enabling and managing simultaneous, multiple modes of communication via satellites; Cloud computing featuring software for use in connection with data processing, data storage, data capture, data collection, data warehousing, data management, data mining, database analytics, and secure data sharing; Satellite telecommunications technology service; Design, development, and maintenance of telecommunications networks, software and apparatus in the field of satellite communications; Providing information in the fields of meteorology, climatology, geography, topography, oceanography, and human and animal migration via telecommunication networks and wireless navigation devices; Providing online computer mapping services; Research and development of technology in the field of satellite communications; Engineering services in the field of satellite communications; Scientific research; Scientific and technological services, namely, scientific research and analysis of data in the fields of meteorology, climatology, geography, topography, and oceanography; Electronic monitoring of environmental and atmospheric conditions using satellites and sensors; Remote sensing services, namely, aerial surveying through the use of satellites; Searching and retrieving information, sites, and other resources available on computer networks for others in relation to satellite data, recordings, and measurements; Providing information concerning satellite internet services via a global information network

The Goods and Services is similar to Starlink, the "Shield" thing makes it sounds like military related, could be dedicated military branch of Starlink?

Assumption based on bolded text: this is extending Starlink to provide items 54/55:
- navigation (like GPS, but independent of it - as backup/redundancy?)
- observation (definitely visual light, maybe later other parts of the electromagnetic spectrum), 24/7 global video coverage...?

I see those as interesting both for civilian and military customers.
And of course, going to the Moon/Mars you'll want the same there... and interconnecting the Earth/Moon/Mars constellations will require nodes at the Lagrange points (Earth-Moon, Earth-Sun, Mars-Sun, Mars-Phobos, Mars-Deimos, etc.?)

Saturating LEO and the inner Solar system with cameras may also help (especially if there are cameras looking outwardly) with detecting asteroids/debris that are small enough to remain undetected so far, but big enough to cause trouble? Which also matches the branding as "Shield"...

Offline matthewkantar

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #10 on: 11/22/2022 02:31 pm »
Mentions cloud services.  I guess if Amazon can use Cloud money to build a constellation, SpaceX can use constellation money to add cloud services to it offering.

Offline Asteroza

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #11 on: 11/22/2022 10:45 pm »
I think there was work on weather monitoring using GPS reflections, so that's an interesting merge of pseudo-GPS and meteorology in the RF realm.

Offline JayWee

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #12 on: 11/22/2022 11:02 pm »
With ISL, assuming precise time synchronization,  - can the Starlinks be used as one giant SAR ?

Online DanClemmensen

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #13 on: 11/22/2022 11:13 pm »
I think there was work on weather monitoring using GPS reflections, so that's an interesting merge of pseudo-GPS and meteorology in the RF realm.
You get an amazing amount of information just from the signal strength data during normal operations. Even with GEO systems I remember watching storm fronts go through an area affecting terminals one after the other. LEO system would provide much more information because the paths vary as the satellites move. However, I know of no studies or experimental systems that are trying to use this data. The GEO systems I worked with monitored signal strength in both uplink and downlink for each terminal pretty much continuously as part of the adaptive protocol. I suspect Starlink and other LEO systems do the same, for the same reasons.

Offline su27k

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #14 on: 11/23/2022 11:31 am »
I don't think a military application needs a trade mark...

But a general law-enforcement system that is basically aimed at municipalities definitely needs to be marketed...

Real-time fire detection, for example, or traffic monitoring.  Your eye-in-the-sky, 24/7.

From a PR perspective, these are things that will make people nervous, and therefore need to be given a reassuring name like "shield".

While I like the idea of selling real time global surveillance to municipalities, I do believe weapons manufacturers register trademarks, for example Raytheon owns the trademark for "Stinger", and Lockheed Martin owns the trademark for "Javelin".

Offline niwax

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #15 on: 11/23/2022 12:13 pm »
Mentions cloud services.  I guess if Amazon can use Cloud money to build a constellation, SpaceX can use constellation money to add cloud services to it offering.

I've been playing around with ideas for cloud applications on satellites and one I think is genuinely attractive is in-situ data processing. Imagine that instead of requesting imagery of a specific area, you can request images or data of objects. Streaming down high-resolution global video would require an extraordinary amount of bandwidth, but you could put a fairly small optimized <<1kW AI accelerator on the satellite itself and upload customer-supplied detectors. Now you can answer questions like a full survey of tree types worldwide, number of cars by state or images of every solar farm/ship/animal herd in the world.
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Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #16 on: 11/23/2022 02:41 pm »
I don't think a military application needs a trade mark...

But a general law-enforcement system that is basically aimed at municipalities definitely needs to be marketed...

Real-time fire detection, for example, or traffic monitoring.  Your eye-in-the-sky, 24/7.

From a PR perspective, these are things that will make people nervous, and therefore need to be given a reassuring name like "shield".

While I like the idea of selling real time global surveillance to municipalities, I do believe weapons manufacturers register trademarks, for example Raytheon owns the trademark for "Stinger", and Lockheed Martin owns the trademark for "Javelin".
Ok sure there are definitely counter examples, I agree.

But yeah - I almost can't see how they'll skip this application.  It's an obvious service, they are positioned to provide it, and are the only ones that can.

It gets them a completely new revenue stream, and quickly makes them indispensable.
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Offline jstrotha0975

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #17 on: 11/23/2022 08:32 pm »
Maybe Starshield has to be with the Missile detection satellites that the DOD wants. It was mentioned a couple years ago the US Gov. was interested in missile detection from SpaceX. Don't ask me to find the article.

Offline su27k

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #18 on: 11/24/2022 02:21 am »
Maybe Starshield has to be with the Missile detection satellites that the DOD wants. It was mentioned a couple years ago the US Gov. was interested in missile detection from SpaceX. Don't ask me to find the article.

That's the Space Development Agency (SDA) Constellation, SpaceX won a contract to build 4 missile warning satellites, it was discussed in this thread. But it seems that SpaceX didn't bid on the follow on contract, I think Asteroza is correct in saying SpaceX has realized SDA constellation is becoming a bureaucratic mess and they can build a better military constellation faster and cheaper. What would be surprising is SpaceX doing this without being paid first (unless something crazy happened).
« Last Edit: 11/24/2022 02:26 am by su27k »

Offline JayWee

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #19 on: 11/24/2022 03:09 am »
I think Asteroza is correct in saying SpaceX has realized SDA constellation is becoming a bureaucratic mess and they can build a better military constellation faster and cheaper. What would be surprising is SpaceX doing this without being paid first (unless something crazy happened).
Placing hosted payload on starlink wouldn't be that expensive. Most of the cost of the constellation is paid for by the commercial side.
Besides - any military constellation would be smaller than your already existing 30k starlink v2 one.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2022 03:09 am by JayWee »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #20 on: 11/24/2022 05:17 am »
I assume this use of Starshield is just a coincidence:

https://spacenews.com/satellites-to-test-fly-new-cyber-software/

Quote
Satellites to test-fly new cyber software
by Debra Werner — April 13, 2022

As space systems face growing cyberattacks, the Aerospace Corp. and TriSept Corp. are preparing separate flight tests of software to alert satellite operators of anomalies detected onboard.

[…]

Aerospace plans to test its Starshield intrusion-detection software on Slingshot, a 12-unit cubesat

I believe Slingshot launched on LauncherOne back in June.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2022 05:18 am by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline JayWee

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #21 on: 12/02/2022 10:48 pm »
Website is up:
https://www.spacex.com/starshield/index.html

Quote from: SpaceX
- EARTH OBSERVATION
- COMMUNICATIONS
- HOSTED PAYLOADS


- Starlink's inter-satellite laser communications terminal, which is the only communications laser operating at scale in orbit today, can be integrated onto partner satellites to enable incorporation into the Starshield network.


Offline edzieba

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #22 on: 12/02/2022 11:05 pm »
These could be the 'mystery secret Starlinks' that were stacked on top of Globalstar FM15 and Transporter-3. The on-sat photo matches the diagram of the 'dual array' Starlink.

Offline zack

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #23 on: 12/02/2022 11:12 pm »
These could be the 'mystery secret Starlinks' that were stacked on top of Globalstar FM15 and Transporter-3. The on-sat photo matches the diagram of the 'dual array' Starlink.

Was thinking the same.
« Last Edit: 12/02/2022 11:13 pm by zack »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #24 on: 12/02/2022 11:21 pm »
These could be the 'mystery secret Starlinks' that were stacked on top of Globalstar FM15 and Transporter-3. The on-sat photo matches the diagram of the 'dual array' Starlink.

Was thinking the same.
The payload separation system seems to match the payload attach system fittings and CNC milled/additively manufactured payload adapter plates.
« Last Edit: 12/02/2022 11:25 pm by russianhalo117 »

Offline Tywin

Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #25 on: 12/03/2022 12:09 am »
This is bad news for Planet Labs, BlackSky and Satellogic...
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Offline Tywin

Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #26 on: 12/03/2022 12:17 am »
Speculation, now that we see Starlink getting into the Earth Observation business, and with the past purchase of IoT's Swarm, could it be integrated into the Starlink constellation?
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Online DanClemmensen

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #27 on: 12/03/2022 01:08 am »
Speculation, now that we see Starlink getting into the Earth Observation business, and with the past purchase of IoT's Swarm, could it be integrated into the Starlink constellation?
Yes, eventually and at several levels of integration. The "easiest" is integrated marketing of the completely separate services. Next level is software integration of the UI and some of the datasets. The next is use of ISL to move the data from the observation satellites to the comms satellties in the next generation of observation satellites. (ISL can be V-band or laser). This dramatically increases the data rate and/or decreases the required power, and eliminates the separate ground infrastructure.  In theory they might ultimately host the observation instruments on the comms satellites, but there are serious problems to solve and a fairly low ROI for this step.

Offline Asteroza

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #28 on: 12/04/2022 11:29 pm »
Hrm government starlink, but not necessarily Government starlink? As in available for governments besides the USA?

Also some backhaul is still Starlink via VPN over ISL?

That sat sorta looks like the space allocation for one of the SDA sat design parameters (that red block https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=47145.msg2147001#msg2147001)? Which might suggest that is the base for the Starshield sat, so SpaceX recycling SDA development work.


Also, what's up with the weird circular thing in the middle of the sat? Some sort of fresnel plate on deployable telescope spider struts? Some trick to flatpack a telescope barrel?

Offline raptorx2

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #29 on: 12/18/2022 11:16 pm »
Sounds like perhaps the DoD has found not only a "short-notice capability to launch", but perhaps also a "short-notice capability to manufacture satellites" in SpaceX.  After all, the capability to launch on short-notice is not so important when you have to wait 3 years for Boeing or Northrop to produce a "to specification" Satellite.

Offline su27k

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #30 on: 12/24/2022 02:54 am »
MECO podcast about Starshield: https://mainenginecutoff.com/podcast/236

I think the question of how exactly SpaceX will sell Starshield to DoD is fair, I have been wondering about the same thing.

Offline su27k

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #31 on: 01/20/2023 02:07 am »
With Starshield, SpaceX readies for battle

Quote from: SpaceNews
Now that SpaceX has established itself as a leading provider of U.S. national security launches, it is seeking a bigger share of the defense market with a new product line called Starshield. SpaceX quietly unveiled Starshield last month offering defense and intelligence agencies custom-built spacecraft, sensors, and secure communications services leveraging SpaceX’s investment in its Starlink network of broadband satellites.

Unfortunately there's nothing new in the article, just a bunch of things we already knew.

Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #32 on: 09/09/2023 04:32 am »
So, is Starshield happening separate from the SDA's program? Also lets just, uh, ignore the rest of his tweet if you agree or disagree, no need to have this thread nuked if we start arguing over that stuff here . . .

Quote
SpaceX is building Starshield for the US government, which is similar to, but much smaller than Starlink, as it will not have to handle millions of users. That system will be owned and controlled by the US government.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1700345943105638636?s=20

Offline Asteroza

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #33 on: 09/14/2023 08:16 am »
So, is Starshield happening separate from the SDA's program?

Yeah, SpaceX bailed on subsequent SDA transport layer tranches, since you know, they have operational network experience, and thought poorly of the laser link interoperability SDA/DoD/DARPA was forcing on the participants. To be fair, integrating other people's partially complete chunks/endpoints into your own network that is already global, orbital, and highly optimized for itself is a difficult endeavor.

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #34 on: 09/14/2023 12:03 pm »
So, is Starshield happening separate from the SDA's program?

Yeah, SpaceX bailed on subsequent SDA transport layer tranches, since you know, they have operational network experience, and thought poorly of the laser link interoperability SDA/DoD/DARPA was forcing on the participants. To be fair, integrating other people's partially complete chunks/endpoints into your own network that is already global, orbital, and highly optimized for itself is a difficult endeavor.
I don't think SpaceX ever bid on the Transport Layer, only the Tracking Layer.

Offline jpo234

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #35 on: 09/28/2023 03:49 pm »
SpaceX inks first Space Force deal for government-focused Starshield satellite network
Quote
The existence of the one-year contract was confirmed to Bloomberg by Air Force spokesperson Ann Stefanek, who said it was awarded on September 1st. Under the deal, SpaceX will provide “Starshield end-to-end service via the Starlink constellation, user terminals, ancillary equipment, network management and other related services.” The contract has a $70 million ceiling, with $15 million being obligated to the company by the end of this month, and is expected to support 54 mission partners across the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard.
« Last Edit: 09/28/2023 03:51 pm by jpo234 »
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Offline Crispy

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #36 on: 09/28/2023 04:28 pm »
That wording:

“Starshield end-to-end service via the Starlink constellation, user terminals, ancillary equipment, network management and other related services.”

implies that this is not a separate constellation but a service that piggy-backs on Starlink.

I thought "Starshield" was a version of the Starlink satellite/bus customised for military operations. Or was it never that cut and dried?

Offline kenny008

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #37 on: 09/28/2023 04:33 pm »
I agree.  I'm not sure I understand the distinction, especially in context of his tweet.  If it's the same satellite constellation, how is this really a separation of civilian and military use?  Just because the ground hardware is different?  Different software?  Seems like the sticking point in the current conflict is that the terms of service prevented military use.  Is this just a different terms of service?

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #38 on: 09/28/2023 04:51 pm »
After initially being disappointed with Elon's decision about prohibiting certain uses for Starlink, I think I understand better where this is headed. It might be the same constellation but it puts military uses, decisions, operations, and security in military hands. Elon is no longer in the hot seat to be a diplomat or general. I think we were all a little surprised at how quickly the need and use grew. The questions involved may have surprised Elon as well.
« Last Edit: 09/28/2023 04:57 pm by Elvis in Space »
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Offline Asteroza

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #39 on: 09/28/2023 11:05 pm »
To summarize, I believe "Starshield" is currently a mix of the following


1. A DoD semicustomizable satellite bus, possibly the basis of the early SDA constellation tracking layer tranche 0 sats
2. A service using said sats, which can use ISL's to link into conventional commercial Starlink
3. An 800 sat "Starlink-lite" constellation/service SpaceX is shopping around to the DoD, as alternative to the SDA constellation/PWSA/PLEO (which they deliberately avoided bidding on the SDA constellation transport layer contracts as SpaceX disliked something about the ISL network interoperability)

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #40 on: 12/07/2023 07:40 am »
https://twitter.com/byericmjohnson/status/1732622847976329305

Quote
SpaceX’s Starlink satellite service successfully completed nine months of US military tests in the Arctic, potentially clearing the way for owner Elon Musk to deepen his ties with the Pentagon in a region of growing strategic competition.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-07/musk-s-starlink-system-clears-air-force-tests-in-arctic-region

From the article:

Quote
The previously undisclosed testing found that StarLink to be a “reliable and high-performance communications system in the Arctic, including on-the-move applications,” Brian Beal, principal engineer with the Air Force Research Laboratory’s Integrated Capabilities Directorate, said in a statement to Bloomberg News.

Offline Teppich

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #41 on: 02/20/2024 04:14 pm »

What would be surprising is SpaceX doing this without being paid first (unless something crazy happened).

https://www.wsj.com/tech/musks-spacex-forges-tighter-links-with-u-s-spy-and-military-agencies-512399bd

Not fully confirmed that this contract is about Starshield given the wording, but it does seem like SpaceX may have gotten paid all along.

I don't really see what else this could be referring to to be honest, esp given the contract volume.

Quote
SpaceX is deepening its ties with U.S. intelligence and military agencies, winning at least one major classified contract and expanding a secretive company satellite program called Starshield for national-security customers.

The Elon Musk-led company entered into a $1.8 billion classified contract with the U.S. government in 2021, according to company documents viewed by The Wall Street Journal. SpaceX said in the documents that funds from the contract were expected to become an important part of its revenue mix in the coming years. It didn’t disclose the name of the government customer.

Another really interesting comment on the NRO being involved:
Quote
The company has also won significant national-security clients for its satellite technologies—a different set of offerings from SpaceX’s traditional work blasting off satellites for those customers. One such client has been the National Reconnaissance Office, according to people familiar with the matter.

That would fit with the aspect of Starshield that's marketed for earth observation, alongside SX job postings for Starshield that have been looking for people with SIGINT/ELINT/radar experience. It could also be contract work for a completely unrelated program of course

« Last Edit: 02/20/2024 04:16 pm by Teppich »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #42 on: 03/16/2024 04:03 pm »
https://www.reuters.com/technology/space/musks-spacex-is-building-spy-satellite-network-us-intelligence-agency-sources-2024-03-16/

Quote
Exclusive: Musk's SpaceX is building spy satellite network for US intelligence agency, sources say
By Joey Roulette and Marisa Taylor
March 16, 20243:22 PM GMTUpdated 2 hours ago

WASHINGTON, March 16 (Reuters) - SpaceX is building a network of hundreds of spy satellites under a classified contract with a U.S. intelligence agency, five sources familiar with the program said, demonstrating deepening ties between billionaire entrepreneur Elon Musk's space company and national security agencies.

The network is being built by SpaceX's Starshield business unit under a $1.8 billion contract signed in 2021 with the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO), an intelligence agency that manages spy satellites, the sources said.

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #43 on: 03/16/2024 11:13 pm »
This is not new news for us.  Maybe confirmation that SpaceX was given the go-ahead for this and that SpaceX is not providing the optical package.  That suggests that Musk is, so far, true to his word that he has no plans for getting into businesses other than satellite communications.

There's lots of interesting potential dual purpose stuff.  Consider the electronic intelligence potential of what is coming out of the Supplemental Coverage from Space/Big LEO work.

Offline raptorx2

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #44 on: 03/17/2024 12:50 am »
Perhaps a tie in with the lease of SLC-6 and the 96.9 inclination 360km VLEO request.

Would a Starshield deployment at 360km 96.9 pre-empt any Direct to Device deployment at 340km 53 degrees?

Would SpaceX then chose to deploy "Commercial D2D" also at slightly above Starshield ~360km 96.9.

The remaining V2.0 mini Group 6-1 and 6-2 satellites have been operating at ~365km for the last year.

Offline raptorx2

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #45 on: 03/17/2024 12:59 am »
Will a Direct to Device component be included in Starshield architecture. 

Perhaps SpaceX will develop a custom secure waveform for DoD use and implement it in on-board RANS similar to D2D?

Similar to Iridium's architecture?  Iridium's 7 year EMSS ~$740MM contract ends in early 2017.

Online DanClemmensen

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #46 on: 03/17/2024 01:53 am »
Will a Direct to Device component be included in Starshield architecture. 

Perhaps SpaceX will develop a custom secure waveform for DoD use and implement it in on-board RANS similar to D2D?

Similar to Iridium's architecture?  Iridium's 7 year EMSS ~$740MM contract ends in early 2017.
I don't know how it is today, but in the past a custom secure waveform is the very last thing DoD would outsource. They would either develop it in-house or use an existing waveform and layer security on top of it.


Offline raptorx2

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #48 on: 03/21/2024 09:14 pm »
https://www.twz.com/space/if-spacexs-secret-constellation-is-what-we-think-it-is-its-game-changing

What my intention of the statement was the notion that any waveforms the Dod/DISA would want to use "standards based, or otherwise" on Starshield would likely require SpaceX to develop the "full stack" to be deployed on the on-board RANS  from scratch. 

Remember, these on-board RANS are likely running on power and resource constrained hardware.  Which lends credence to the idea that SpaceX has had to develop the LTE stack of  D2C satellites, also perhap from scratch.

Offline zubenelgenubi

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #49 on: 03/22/2024 11:59 pm »
Probable 2 Starshield satellites launched on Starlink 7-16.
SpaceX F9 : Starlink group 7-16 : VSFB SLC-4E : 18/19 March 2024 (02:28 UTC)
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Offline ThatOldJanxSpirit

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #50 on: 04/18/2024 04:30 pm »
More reporting on Starshield from Yahoo Finance.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-northrop-grumman-working-musks-144135155.html [Apr 18]

The main takeaway is that Northrop Grumman is providing the sensors.
« Last Edit: 06/13/2024 10:49 pm by zubenelgenubi »

Offline seb21051

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #51 on: 04/18/2024 08:25 pm »
More reporting on Starshield from Yahoo Finance.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-northrop-grumman-working-musks-144135155.html

The main takeaway is that Northrop Grumman is providing the sensors.

So, NG gets exposure to SX's sat bus (not that they don't know how to build spysats, but few can beat SX at the price and mass production game) and SX gets exposure to the imaging sensors, and possibly the radar ones, etc; and SX is known to favour vertical integration. Whould be interesting to see the contract between the two of them, especially as regards proprietary technology.
« Last Edit: 06/13/2024 10:49 pm by zubenelgenubi »

Offline novo2044

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #52 on: 04/20/2024 08:58 pm »
I was a little surprised that 30cm resolution data is freely commercially available through the Worldview sats.  They apparently cost around $400-600M dollars and it's $20-60/km2 for "new" images.  Then there's a huge spectrum until it tails off to less than $1/km2 for archived images at 3m resolution without the multispectral bells and whistles.  Then there are issues of spot size, flyover intervals, redundancy in case someone gets cute with an EMP, etc. 

If I were the military I'd be pretty happy with 50-100 cm every 10 minutes, but who knows?  Periodic imaging would require way fewer satellites than global comms, which could be backstopped by regular Starlink.  Then again $1M sensor packages on 1400 satellites would still come to around $2B.  Unfortunately this is one thing where leaks are relatively uncommon.  It was hard to find data on the cost of earth observation satellites since prices and capabilities have changed drastically over the last 20 years.

Offline JayWee

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #53 on: 04/24/2024 07:39 pm »
https://twitter.com/EzekielOverstr1/status/1783215213833007156
Quote
Awesome gift I received from SpaceX for working there since 2023. [Apr 24]


There were two starshield launches in 2023. [See 3rd image.]
« Last Edit: 06/13/2024 10:54 pm by zubenelgenubi »

Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #54 on: 06/11/2024 10:10 pm »
https://spacenews.com/pentagon-embracing-spacexs-starshield-for-future-military-satcom/ [Jun 11]

Quote
In a stark illustration of how rapidly the satellite communications landscape is shifting toward large constellations of smaller satellites in low-Earth orbit, the Defense Department plans to add more than 100 of SpaceX’s Starshield satellites to its future satcom architecture.

Quote
. . . the plan is to acquire a constellation of Starshield satellites by 2029, contingent upon receiving the necessary funding appropriations from Congress.
« Last Edit: 06/13/2024 10:51 pm by zubenelgenubi »

Offline OTV Booster

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #55 on: 06/13/2024 08:02 pm »
What if: SX supplies a basic StarLink buss to DoD/NSA, who then integrate their own sensor package. Then, instead of a separate constellation the modified sats are salted throughout the StarLink constellation.


This provides Musk with a fig leaf denial of being involved. He would be selling a generic sat buss and every day launch and comms services.


It would also be good camouflage and protect against point attack. Broad area defense from EMP or shotgun type attack is another issue.
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Offline thespacecow

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #56 on: 11/09/2024 12:33 pm »
Learned something new today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrence_J._O%27Shaughnessy

Quote
O'Shaughnessy proposed the SHIELD missile defense system, which stands for Strategic Homeland Integrated Ecosystem for Layered Defense.[9]

Quote
Since 2021, O'Shaughnessy is employed by SpaceX[10] where he leads government programs.

I guess this is why SpaceX named their military satellite system "StarShield".

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #57 on: 11/11/2024 04:07 pm »
Related to that...

Quote
The most concrete evidence of Mr. Musk’s efforts to reshape the agencies he does business with are his efforts to install his employees in the Defense Department. People familiar with those efforts said Mr. Musk recommended two SpaceX employees — a retired Air Force general and a government-affairs executive — as possible hires.
Among the SpaceX executives who have been recommended by Mr. Musk, Gen. Terrence J. O’Shaughnessy, an adviser who is retired from the Air Force, and Tim Hughes, a government affairs executive, are among Mr. Musk’s closest advisers, according to one of the people briefed. Mr. Hughes did not return a request for comment and Mr. O’Shaughnessy could not be reached.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/06/us/politics/elon-musk-trump-benefits.html

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #58 on: 12/07/2024 02:52 pm »
This morning, the Washington Post has an overview article of the military implications of SpaceX's lead.  Starlink/Starshield, Starship, and rocket cargo all discussed.  The lead over China is guessed to be ~10 years.  The article plays it straight.

Quote
Elon Musk’s Martian dreams are a boon to the U.S. military
Defense experts say SpaceX has leapfrogged global rivals and could help the United States deter -- or win -- a war against China.

Amused observers have long dismissed Elon Musk’s dream to colonize Mars as unserious science fiction. But in his pursuit of the Red Planet, Musk has managed to build a deadly serious business with vast military consequences.
Security experts say SpaceX has leapfrogged so far ahead in several critical technologies that it could deter major rivals like China from engaging in a war with the United States — or tip the balance if one breaks out. Others worry that it could provoke an untimely response.

Access through an archive site if you don't have a subscription to WaPo.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/12/07/musk-mars-technology-us-national-security/

Offline thespacecow

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #59 on: 01/28/2025 04:50 am »
This may have huge implications for SpaceX's DoD business: Trump just issued an executive order to revive SDI/Star Wars. A bit confusingly he called it The Iron Dome For America, but if you read the order it's basically an anti-ICBM shield, aimed at not just to defeat missiles from "rogue nations", but from "peer, near-peer" adversaries as well. It's going to have strong space components such as:

Quote
Sec. 3.  Implementation.  Within 60 days of the date of this order, the Secretary of Defense shall:
     (a)  Submit to the President a reference architecture, capabilities-based requirements, and an implementation plan for the next-generation missile defense shield.  The architecture shall include, at a minimum, plans for:
...
(iii)   Development and deployment of proliferated space-based interceptors capable of boost-phase intercept; 
...

This is brilliant pebbles, which as have been pointed out many times on X, is now entirely doable as proven by Starlink.

Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #60 on: 01/28/2025 08:17 am »
This may have huge implications for SpaceX's DoD business: Trump just issued an executive order to revive SDI/Star Wars.
...
This is brilliant pebbles, which as have been pointed out many times on X, is now entirely doable as proven by Starlink.
Ugh.

I've always maintained that the Kessler syndrome can be avoided, but that's assuming nobody is intentionally going to cause it.

If I were a peer nation that's incapable of competing with it but is volnerable to it, it'd be a red line for me, and it's super easy to defeat in advance with "dumbass pebbles".

Except dumbass pebbles, they're not a targeted weapon. They basically take out spherical shells (less some polar donut holes)
« Last Edit: 01/28/2025 12:29 pm by meekGee »
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Offline envy887

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #61 on: 01/28/2025 11:44 am »
This may have huge implications for SpaceX's DoD business: Trump just issued an executive order to revive SDI/Star Wars. A bit confusingly he called it The Iron Dome For America, but if you read the order it's basically an anti-ICBM shield, aimed at not just to defeat missiles from "rogue nations", but from "peer, near-peer" adversaries as well. It's going to have strong space components such as:

Quote
Sec. 3.  Implementation.  Within 60 days of the date of this order, the Secretary of Defense shall:
     (a)  Submit to the President a reference architecture, capabilities-based requirements, and an implementation plan for the next-generation missile defense shield.  The architecture shall include, at a minimum, plans for:
...
(iii)   Development and deployment of proliferated space-based interceptors capable of boost-phase intercept; 
...

This is brilliant pebbles, which as have been pointed out many times on X, is now entirely doable as proven by Starlink.
Ugh.

I've always maintained that the Kessler syndrome can be avoided, but that's assuming nobody is intentionally going to cause it.

If I were a peer nation that's incapable of competing with it but is volnerable to it, it'd be a red line for me, and it's super easy to defeat in advance with "dumbass pebbles".

Except dumbass pebbles, they're not a targeted weapon. They basically take out spherical shells (less some polar donut holes)

It's not at all clear that area denial in orbit is any easier than "proliferated interceptors". The effectiveness of the denial is proportional to the density of the impactors: mass throughout the available volume. As the available volume is huge this requires enormous amounts of mass, thousands of tons at minimum and probably more like tens of thousands of tons to be effective on a useful time scale. That means it requires highly advanced launch systems, or a enormous effort to scale out existing launch technology. And at Starlink altitudes the launch requirements are compounded by the fact that drag clears the impactors out of orbit in a few years, so the continuous launching of huge amounts of mass is required.

I did a BOTE a while back on what it would take to deny LEO to large targets (e.g. Keyhole), and it showed a requirement of roughly 7500 tonnes in LEO just to reduce the mean operational lifetime to 2 years. And that was without considering any shielding on the target satellites, which can quickly increase the impactor mass requirement by 1 or 2 orders of magnitude.
« Last Edit: 01/28/2025 11:47 am by envy887 »

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #62 on: 01/28/2025 12:28 pm »
It's not at all clear that area denial in orbit is any easier than "proliferated interceptors". The effectiveness of the denial is proportional to the density of the impactors: mass throughout the available volume. As the available volume is huge this requires enormous amounts of mass, thousands of tons at minimum and probably more like tens of thousands of tons to be effective on a useful time scale. That means it requires highly advanced launch systems, or a enormous effort to scale out existing launch technology. And at Starlink altitudes the launch requirements are compounded by the fact that drag clears the impactors out of orbit in a few years, so the continuous launching of huge amounts of mass is required.

I did a BOTE a while back on what it would take to deny LEO to large targets (e.g. Keyhole), and it showed a requirement of roughly 7500 tonnes in LEO just to reduce the mean operational lifetime to 2 years. And that was without considering any shielding on the target satellites, which can quickly increase the impactor mass requirement by 1 or 2 orders of magnitude.
How heavy were your pebbles?

Keep in mind, while it's likely that the brilliant carriers will be shielded, the Starlinks won't be, and my concern is them, not them.

--

It's a dumbass escalation that will result in (surprise) counter escalation, and there are a million ways to escalate which the pebbles are useless against.

I truly hope he's just headlining.
« Last Edit: 01/28/2025 12:35 pm by meekGee »
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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #63 on: 01/28/2025 07:33 pm »
This morning, the Washington Post has an overview article of the military implications of SpaceX's lead.  Starlink/Starshield, Starship, and rocket cargo all discussed.  The lead over China is guessed to be ~10 years.  The article plays it straight.

Quote
Elon Musk’s Martian dreams are a boon to the U.S. military
Defense experts say SpaceX has leapfrogged global rivals and could help the United States deter -- or win -- a war against China.

Amused observers have long dismissed Elon Musk’s dream to colonize Mars as unserious science fiction. But in his pursuit of the Red Planet, Musk has managed to build a deadly serious business with vast military consequences.
Security experts say SpaceX has leapfrogged so far ahead in several critical technologies that it could deter major rivals like China from engaging in a war with the United States — or tip the balance if one breaks out. Others worry that it could provoke an untimely response.

Access through an archive site if you don't have a subscription to WaPo.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/12/07/musk-mars-technology-us-national-security/

I've been saying this for a while.

Starship at $50/kg to LEO gives DoD a *million tonne* yearly budget to space with 5% of their budget. You're way beyond brilliant pebbles here...

« Last Edit: 01/28/2025 07:36 pm by ZachF »
artist, so take opinions expressed above with a well-rendered grain of salt...
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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #64 on: 01/29/2025 04:24 am »
Keep in mind, while it's likely that the brilliant carriers will be shielded, the Starlinks won't be, and my concern is them, not them.

Starlink satellites already have shields around critical areas. As satellites get bigger, the cost for losing one to MMOD increases, and the cost for adding shield decreases due to lower launch cost, so I think future satellites will get even better protection.

Besides, Russia and China are already planning to attack Starlink before this announcement, so I don't think this put Starlink in more danger than it is already in.



Quote from: meekGee
It's a dumbass escalation that will result in (surprise) counter escalation, and there are a million ways to escalate which the pebbles are useless against.

I'm pretty sure China is already thinking about this, this is one of the most obvious military use case for reusable launch, I mean it's literally what DC-X was originally designed for. If US doesn't do this it'll just be left behind, like in hypersonic where it naively think just because US doesn't weaponize it, nobody else will, that was a big mistake.

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #65 on: 01/29/2025 04:54 am »
Keep in mind, while it's likely that the brilliant carriers will be shielded, the Starlinks won't be, and my concern is them, not them.

Starlink satellites already have shields around critical areas. As satellites get bigger, the cost for losing one to MMOD increases, and the cost for adding shield decreases due to lower launch cost, so I think future satellites will get even better protection.

Besides, Russia and China are already planning to attack Starlink before this announcement, so I don't think this put Starlink in more danger than it is already in.



Quote from: meekGee
It's a dumbass escalation that will result in (surprise) counter escalation, and there are a million ways to escalate which the pebbles are useless against.

I'm pretty sure China is already thinking about this, this is one of the most obvious military use case for reusable launch, I mean it's literally what DC-X was originally designed for. If US doesn't do this it'll just be left behind, like in hypersonic where it naively think just because US doesn't weaponize it, nobody else will, that was a big mistake.
Thinking about it, of course they should, they'd be fools not to.

And we should think about and even develop capabilities as well.  We shouldn't be fools either.  But smart arms development is done in secret.

OTOH, deploying and cornering them into a situation where preemption is the only way to stop what will become an existential threat is dumb.

Nobody can take down something like BP in real-time.  Dumb pebbles take months to work. They're a statistical undiscriminating weapon.

Shielding is prohibitive when you're only concerned about MMODs. The impact velocities are immense, and shields just become more fragments, and help impart even more spin on the target. It's a very unshieldable situation.
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Online StraumliBlight

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #66 on: 02/08/2025 01:41 pm »
SpaceNews

Quote
Sens. Dan Sullivan (R-Alaska) and Kevin Cramer (R-N.D.) introduced the “Iron Dome Act” on Feb. 6, proposing $19.5 billion in funding for fiscal year 2026 to implement Trump’s recent executive order dubbed “Iron Dome for America.” The legislation includes $960 million for space-based technologies.

Offline novo2044

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #67 on: 02/08/2025 02:43 pm »
SpaceNews

Quote
Sens. Dan Sullivan (R-Alaska) and Kevin Cramer (R-N.D.) introduced the “Iron Dome Act” on Feb. 6, proposing $19.5 billion in funding for fiscal year 2026 to implement Trump’s recent executive order dubbed “Iron Dome for America.” The legislation includes $960 million for space-based technologies.
I get why they called it Iron Dome.  I really do.

But this has basically nothing in common with Iron Dome other than being vaguely missile defense.  This has its roots in Star Wars and honestly, is not totally insane.  Real time tracking of every missile launch on earth, as well as having some sort of interceptors in orbit, seems within current or near future technology for a reasonable (heh) cost

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #68 on: 02/10/2025 02:08 pm »
Iron Dome is a better name than Star Wars if only because of the baggage of the Star Wars name.

I'm more interested in the 19:1 split between land and space.  Would imagine a much higher space share in a successful product.
« Last Edit: 02/10/2025 02:10 pm by RedLineTrain »

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #69 on: 02/10/2025 03:03 pm »
In the nearly two years since Starshield was first announced, it has become the No. 2 revenue contributor within Starlink.

"Nearly a quarter of the entire business -- $2 billion in estimated revenue -- now comes from Starshield and related services. And at the rate Starshield is growing, Starlink's military sideline business could well become the biggest part of Starlink."

https://www.fool.com/investing/2025/02/10/its-official-starlink-is-spacexs-biggest-money-mak/

https://payloadspace.com/estimating-spacexs-2024-revenue/
« Last Edit: 02/10/2025 03:27 pm by phantomdj »
SpaceX has become what NASA used to be in the '60's, innovative and driven.

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #70 on: 03/19/2025 06:50 am »
Military-Tech Startups Vie for Billions as Hegseth Shakes Up Pentagon Spending

Quote
In one case, Pentagon officials are reviewing an outside proposal to build a defense system using technology from Anduril, Palantir and Elon Musk’s SpaceX, according to people familiar with the matter. The plan is a response to President Trump’s January executive order to develop a next-generation missile defense shield that the administration called the Iron Dome for America, an effort since renamed the “Golden Dome.”

The defense-tech sector’s missile-defense pitch is one of a few options the Defense Department could pursue to meet the president’s requirements, which include a satellite network and space-based interceptors. The executive order requires the Pentagon to submit an implementation plan for the missile shield by late March.

Offline Kiwi53

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #71 on: 04/09/2025 12:26 am »
All the Starshield launches to date appear to have been to a 70° inclination orbit. This gives good ground, sea and air coverage to almost all the places where combat operations seem likely to occur, the only gap would be in the north polar region.
Are there known plans to launch Starshield into polar (say 87° to 93° inclination) orbits? Even one Falcon load of 20+ satellites would give intermittent coverage, and two launches should give pretty continuous coverage

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #72 on: 04/12/2025 07:01 pm »
Article published for the launch of NROL-192.
SFN SpaceX launches Starshield satellites for the NRO on Falcon 9 rocket from Vandenberg
April 12, Will Robinson-Smith
Quote
...NRO Director Chris Scolese called this week “the world’s most capable, resilient, and technologically advanced satellite constellation.”
<snip>
The constellation is made up of what are believed to be Starshield satellites, a government variant of SpaceX’s Starlink. In a video statement shared on April 8, Scolese described the May 2024 launch of the NROL-146 mission as “setting a new standard for data collection, speed, and responsiveness.”

“This enhanced constellation is already shortening revisit times and increasing observational persistence; delivering enhanced coordination; and empowering faster data processing, fusion, and transmission speeds. All with greater resilience and security,” Scolese said.

“Most profoundly, we’re making it harder for our adversaries to hide, while reducing time to insights for our customers from minutes to seconds – strengthening national security with improved prospects for lethality, when it’s necessary.”

Without going into firm specifics, Scolese said that across the past eight missions supporting this constellation, SpaceX launched more than 150 satellites on behalf of the NRO.
« Last Edit: 04/12/2025 10:03 pm by zubenelgenubi »
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Offline zubenelgenubi

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #73 on: 04/12/2025 09:49 pm »
Cross-post:
I note B1063, B1071, and B1088 were used for 8 of the nine previous NRO Future Proliferated Architecture launches. 📝
« Last Edit: 04/19/2025 08:45 pm by zubenelgenubi »
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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #74 on: 04/18/2025 03:16 pm »
Splinter discussion split/moved here:
SpaceX and Golden Dome in Space Policy
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Offline AndrewM

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #75 on: 06/25/2025 02:48 am »
Looks like another Starshield application/division. It's a good article and I pulled a few quotes from it.

https://breakingdefense.com/2025/06/space-force-is-contracting-with-spacex-for-new-secretive-milnet-satcom-network/ [June 18]

Quote
The Space Force in contracting with SpaceX for a new government-owned, contractor-operated satellite communication constellation in low Earth orbit (LEO), called MILNET, that eventually will be integrated into the service’s grand plan for a “hybrid mesh network” combining commercial and Defense Department satellites, a senior Space Force official revealed today.

Quote
MILNET, which has rarely been discussed publicly until now, comprises “480-plus” satellites, Weisler said, that will be operated by SpaceX

Quote
The network will use terminals created by SpaceX for its Starshield satellites being configured for military use, which also can link into SpaceX’s commercial Starlink constellation. The Starshield terminals have more encryption than those sold to consumers for Starlink access, he explained.

Offline AndrewM

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #76 on: 09/19/2025 12:46 pm »
SpaceX's Starshield Technology Makes Military Communication Faster, More Convenient [Aug. 4]

Quote
FORT MCCOY, Wis. - Many things can cripple a military. One is the inability to adapt and integrate new technology and remain competitive on the battlefield, and the other is the loss of communication between personnel, military systems, and allies. U.S. Army Reserve Soldiers assigned to the 324th Expeditionary Signal Battalion (ESB), Bravo Company, are working to ensure that the Army continues to move into the future by utilizing new and better technology with their use of SpaceX’s laser-operated Starshield communications system.

“This is the UAT-222 dish,” said Cpt. Harvey Degree, a lead engineer with the 324th ESB. “This is Starlink’s high-speed dish. It’s a five-terabyte global plan that we use to activate our Starlinks and essentially make them Starshields.” The Starshield provides fast, high-bandwidth, low-latency information transfer to any unit, anywhere in the world, with upload speeds between 300-500 Mbps, and low 25 ms latencies.

The ability to reliably communicate within a military has always been a top priority that has existed as long as there has been conflict. As technology advances, not only does communication become easier, but the transport of communication devices also becomes safer and quicker.

One of the Army’s standard communication devices, such as the Satellite Transportable Terminal (STT), is around 12 feet long and 20 feet tall, and requires a large vehicle or trailer to move it, making transportation in a combat zone a danger to the equipment and to the soldiers tasked with using it. But the newer Starshield technology is a small square about two feet on each side. Along with its smaller size, the unit has fewer power requirements and components, allowing Soldiers to begin operations within minutes. In a field where efficiency and urgency can be the difference between mission success and mission failure, these improvements can be invaluable.

Because the Starlink systems are designed to be civilian-friendly, the time it takes to train soldiers in the use of this technology is also drastically lowered. “We’ve been using this new system for about five days,” said Sgt. Chandon Otten, an engineer with the 324th ESB. “You just grab it out of the box, put it up, there you go.”
All of this combines to make a better system that improves the Army’s capabilities in the field, with better data, speed, and decision-making. “That’s the bottom line, it saves lives,” said Degree.


SpaceX differentiates between Starlink and Starshield, but the services are intertwined [Aug 13]

Quote
Sascha Meinrath, a Penn State professor who has studied Starlink’s capabilities, recently published an analysis about the ability of the network to support internet traffic amid increasing use. In comments to FedScoop, he said the undisclosed “potential dependencies” between Starlink and Starshield have left “everyone from the U.S. military to U.S. states looking to bridge the digital divide with unknown downside risks.”

“Starshield and Starlink may share components of a common network architecture — yet the limitations of any shared assets have not been publicly disclosed,” he added. “This introduces serious potential life-safety issues, both for military personnel and to the general public.”

Quote
“For many U.S. Government users, Starlink and Starshield are indistinguishable,” the Air Force argued. “Starshield contracts are so sensitive that the work under them is classified. … [T]he distinction between Starshield and Starlink does not exist for some U.S. Government users, and Starlink itself is the basis for exclusive and specialized U.S. Government services and capability.”

Offline spacenut

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #77 on: 09/19/2025 01:03 pm »
There may not be a need for a space based shield IF, big if, they can stop the Ukraine/Russian war, at least from the Russian aspect.  They have the most missiles. 

Offline thespacecow

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #78 on: 09/21/2025 02:47 am »
Quote
Sascha Meinrath, a Penn State professor who has studied Starlink’s capabilities, recently published an analysis about the ability of the network to support internet traffic amid increasing use. In comments to FedScoop, he said the undisclosed “potential dependencies” between Starlink and Starshield have left “everyone from the U.S. military to U.S. states looking to bridge the digital divide with unknown downside risks.”

“Starshield and Starlink may share components of a common network architecture — yet the limitations of any shared assets have not been publicly disclosed,” he added. “This introduces serious potential life-safety issues, both for military personnel and to the general public.”

Why is this surprising? It's well known that the communication product sold under the Starshield label depends on commercial Starlink network. It's because Starshield doesn't have a dedicated military communication constellation yet, MILNET is going to be that, but it's not funded/launched yet. So if you really want to separate military communication from commercial Starlink, fund MILNET.

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #79 on: 09/21/2025 03:46 pm »
SpaceX differentiates between Starlink and Starshield, but the services are intertwined [Aug 13]
Quote
Sascha Meinrath, a Penn State professor who has studied Starlink’s capabilities, recently published an analysis about the ability of the network to support internet traffic amid increasing use. In comments to FedScoop, he said the undisclosed “potential dependencies” between Starlink and Starshield have left “everyone from the U.S. military to U.S. states looking to bridge the digital divide with unknown downside risks.”

“Starshield and Starlink may share components of a common network architecture — yet the limitations of any shared assets have not been publicly disclosed,” he added. “This introduces serious potential life-safety issues, both for military personnel and to the general public.”
This intertwining has been true at least since the invention of the telegraph. Effective ways to reliably use an unreliable lower comms layer has been studied at a practical level for at least that long, and more formally since long before the inception of ARPANET. A completely separate military network is almost certainly not the cheapest or most reliable solution.

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #80 on: 10/17/2025 12:57 pm »
NPR: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal [Oct 17]

Quote
Satellites associated with the Starshield satellite network appear to be transmitting to the Earth's surface on frequencies normally used for doing the exact opposite: sending commands from Earth to satellites in space. The use of those frequencies to "downlink" data runs counter to standards set by the International Telecommunication Union, a United Nations agency that seeks to coordinate the use of radio spectrum globally.

Starshield's unusual transmissions have the potential to interfere with other scientific and commercial satellites, warns Scott Tilley, an amateur satellite tracker in Canada who first spotted the signals.

[...]

Tilley says he's detected signals from 170 of the Starshield satellites so far. All appear in the 2025-2110 MHz range, though the precise frequencies of the signals move around.

Signal's purpose in question
It's unclear what the satellite constellation is up to. Starlink, SpaceX's public satellite internet network, operates at much higher frequencies to enable the transmission of broadband data. Starshield, by contrast, is using a much lower frequency range that probably only allows for the transmission of data at rates closer to 3G cellular, Tilley says.

Tilley says he believes the decision to downlink in a band typically reserved for uplinking data could also be designed to hide Starshield's operations. The frequent shift in specific frequencies used could prevent outsiders from finding the signal.

Gifford says another possibility is that SpaceX was just taking advantage of a quiet part of the radio spectrum. Uplink transmissions from Earth to satellites are usually rare and brief, so these frequencies probably remain dark most of the time.

Offline thespacecow

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #81 on: 11/01/2025 11:55 am »
https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/elon-musks-spacex-set-to-win-2-billion-pentagon-satellite-deal-c0a51325

Quote
SpaceX is set to receive $2 billion to develop satellites that can track missiles and aircraft under President Trump’s Golden Dome project, people familiar with the matter said.

The funding was included in the tax-and-spending bill that Trump signed in July, but wasn’t publicly linked to a contractor. The planned “air moving target indicator” system could eventually field as many as 600 satellites, some of the people said.

The Elon Musk-led company is expected to play a major role in two other Pentagon satellite networks, according to people familiar with the situation. One, called Milnet, would relay sensitive military communications, while the other involves satellites capable of tracking vehicles on the ground, the people said.

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #82 on: 11/01/2025 03:56 pm »
I think the Pentagon believes a LEO satellite constellation would have more satellites and harder to knock out than a a few GSO satellites.  This would give them another leg of being able to see what is going on.  Land based like the DEW line, GSO satellites, LEO satellites all would help monitor missiles and bombers. 

Offline DigitalMan

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #83 on: 11/01/2025 05:22 pm »
Elon posted that SpaceX hasn’t bid on any golden dome projects. SpaceX would handle projects if the president asked, but that hasn’t happened.

SpaceX prefers to remain focused on the Moon and Mars.

Offline spacenut

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #84 on: 11/01/2025 05:40 pm »
Why would the WSJ make a story up about the $2 billion?  Do they have someone inside the Pentagon releasing information?

Offline DigitalMan

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #85 on: 11/01/2025 06:41 pm »
Maybe it was Tuesday.

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #86 on: 11/02/2025 05:56 am »
Elon posted that SpaceX hasn’t bid on any golden dome projects. SpaceX would handle projects if the president asked, but that hasn’t happened.

SpaceX prefers to remain focused on the Moon and Mars.

We'll see. Golden dome is an amorphous blob right now, some of the previous military projects are absorbed into it, this "moving target indicator" system could be one, I think something like this has been discussed before Trump came into office.

My interpretation of what Elon posted is that he would prefer not to get involved in in-space interceptors, which is controversial. But it's pretty clear communication and sensors are ok, given they're already building it for NRO.

Offline Rebel44

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #87 on: 11/02/2025 06:24 pm »
Elon posted that SpaceX hasn’t bid on any golden dome projects. SpaceX would handle projects if the president asked, but that hasn’t happened.

SpaceX prefers to remain focused on the Moon and Mars.

I dont think this contract is actually (primarily) for the Golden Dome - to me it looks like satellite-based replacement of AWACS aircraft, that has been planned/requested for some time (so existing before the Golden Done and not being directly related to it).
« Last Edit: 11/02/2025 06:25 pm by Rebel44 »

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: SpaceX's new product/department: Starshield
« Reply #88 on: Today at 03:12 pm »
A report stating that Starlink was subject to successful widespread jamming in battle in Sudan.  This is the first time that I have heard of such a thing from the front lines, so I'm not sure what to make of it.  Perhaps SpaceX didn't relax the GPS requirement, as it seems to have done in Ukraine?

It is interesting that Starlink is not licensed in Sudan.  Perhaps the nature of access is more actively managed in such areas by Washington.

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In el-Fasher, Sudanese under siege have only been able to use the Starlink satellite internet service to contact the outside world over the past few months.

The military, meanwhile, also had satellite phones made by Thuraya, a UAE-based company.

According to a source from an international telecommunications company in Sudan, telecoms systems experienced severe disruption from 24-26 October across the regions of Darfur and Kordofan.

Mobile phone signals and internet services were severely impacted as the RSF seized el-Fasher and Bara, a town in North Kordofan taken the same weekend, he said.

Meanwhile, a Sudanese tech expert told MEE that people who managed to flee el-Fasher told him that they were unable to connect to Starlink in the days before the city was taken.

“My sources told me that two drones were flying over the Darja Awla neighbourhood every day for five hours at a time. Whenever they were in the air, people could not connect to Starlink,” he said.

“The drones seemed new, their type was unfamiliar. People in el-Fasher had not reported such issues connecting to Starlink before.”


Middle East Eye has asked SpaceX, Starlink’s parent company, for comment.

Tech and military experts told MEE that interfering with satellite connections was not necessarily a complex operation and jamming such services has been seen before in Sudan.

Large-scale satellite signal jamming was recorded off the Sudanese coast in August, and when MEE visited Port Sudan in May GPS services were not working in the city.

“Thuraya satellite phones can be jammed or eavesdropped on,” the source in the telecoms company said.

“The jamming or hacking of Starlink is more difficult but not impossible.”
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According to a source close to Sudanese Prime Minister Kamal Idriss, the commanders in el-Fasher were able to reach the military leadership through a Starlink connection to get the withdrawal plan approved.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/radio-silence-how-defence-sudans-el-fasher-collapsed-after-comms-blackout
« Last Edit: Today at 03:18 pm by RedLineTrain »

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