Author Topic: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage  (Read 124260 times)

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #40 on: 04/14/2015 10:36 pm »
SpaceX is going to try reusability until they run out of money. That doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon as even with all these experiments they are growing marketshare and are profitable enough to put some of their cash in corporate bonds (of another company). It'll be many, many years before they give up.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #41 on: 04/14/2015 10:37 pm »
SpaceX is spending a lot of engineering effort on reusability, and on these experiments, in addition to the actual costs of the barge and recovery team, etc.  Development engineering is not cheap...

No doubt you have seen the same statements from Musk and Shotwell about how their costs would come down significantly if they can perfect reusability?

Such changes in business models do not come easily, especially when you are dealing with a mature industry such as rocketry.  So if you are trying for great rewards, it may take a lot of risk to get there.

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What I'm wondering is how many more crashes the company accepts before abandoning the idea altogether.  There is a number, and it is not infinite.

If you only look at their attempts in a pure black and white way - they either succeeded 100% or it was a failure - then sure such a question would make sense.  They have made no progress at all since they started.

But life is not black and white, and it's pretty obvious that the progress they have made is not only unparalleled in the history of rocketry, but it's clear they are making significant progress on every try.

For instance, on this flight the stage landed successfully, but tipped over.  You call it a crash, but I would call it an unstable landing compared to their previous landing attempt that actually did crash into the ASDS.  So at this point it's clear SpaceX knows how to get a stage to a specific spot in the ocean and land it within vertical velocity parameters, but that they still have some work to do on horizontal velocity parameters.

Would you give up based on their progress, with only one parameter left to conquer?
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline sanman

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #42 on: 04/14/2015 10:57 pm »
http://spacenews.com/spacex-launches-dragon-cargo-spacecraft-rocket-stage-makes-hard-landing-2/?utm_content=buffer192dc&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

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SpaceX President and Chief Operating Officer Gwynne Shotwell said during an interview just before the April 14 launch that the first attempt to put the Falcon 9 booster down on a land-based platform could come as early as this summer.

Earlier this year, SpaceX and the Air Force announced plans for the company to convert unused launch pads at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California and Cape Canaveral Air Force Station into landing pads.

SpaceX recently began construction on the Cape Canaveral landing pad and environmental work is underway for the landing pad at Vandenberg, Shotwell said in the interview, conducted here at the 31st Space Symposium.
The first attempt to stick a Falcon 9 booster on a landing pad at Vandenberg could come as early as July following the launch of the French-U.S. Jason-3 ocean altimetry satellite mission, she said.

“We’d love to land Jason-3, which we’re going to launch in July; we’d love to land that on land at Vandenberg,” Shotwell said.

Another possibility “might” be following the scheduled June launch of a commercial resupply mission to the International Space Station from the Cape, Shotwell said.
« Last Edit: 04/14/2015 10:59 pm by sanman »

Offline charliem

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #43 on: 04/14/2015 11:00 pm »
Has anyone suggested the possibility of fitting "magnetic shoes" to the Falcon's landing gear, to help with rebounds or tip overs?

You can build a quite powerful electromagnet very light if it only needs to work for a few seconds each time. Maybe use super-capacitors to feed them, given the high amp, short time of operation.

And if there is more power available, at low current they could double as temporal restrains until the stage is chained to the deck.

Does it sound crazy?

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #44 on: 04/14/2015 11:08 pm »
I would have like to have been in the room to see the expression on the faces of the ULA execs if they were watching the landing attempt...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline Kabloona

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #45 on: 04/14/2015 11:16 pm »
Hans seems optimistic:

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At a press conference at the Kennedy Space Center about an hour after the launch, SpaceX vice president Hans Koenigsmann said that an initial analysis of data from the rocket stage showed no obvious problems during the landing attempt. He was optimistic that whatever flaw caused the hard landing could be easily corrected.

“I’m pretty sure we’ll figure this out and make it work,” he said. “It’s just a matter of finding the right parameters, finding the right method to do this. I don’t think there’s something fundamental” that needs to be changed.

http://spacenews.com/spacex-launches-dragon-cargo-spacecraft-rocket-stage-makes-hard-landing-2/?utm_content=buffer192dc&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
« Last Edit: 04/14/2015 11:17 pm by Kabloona »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #46 on: 04/14/2015 11:17 pm »
F9 has already started to kill one of the "e"s in EELV. :)
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #47 on: 04/14/2015 11:35 pm »
F9 has already started to kill one of the "e"s in EELV. :)
Well if not I think it's on it's, dare I say, last legs.... ;D
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #48 on: 04/14/2015 11:39 pm »
It really does look like they landed perfectly this time (CRS-6).. it just fell over afterwards because, ya know, it's on a boat. I hope we have a better idea of what went wrong when the video is available.

That said, landing and securing the vehicle is just the first step on the road to reusability.


Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #49 on: 04/14/2015 11:46 pm »
Speaking of breaking legs...
This guy jinxed it. :)
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Fingers crossed for @SpaceX. Break a leg! #DontYouNeedThoseToLand #Space
https://twitter.com/DeepSpacer/status/587713096975650816
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #50 on: 04/14/2015 11:58 pm »
Maybe some simple arrester cables and a hook on Falcon for sea ops... I’m only half kidding... :)
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #51 on: 04/15/2015 12:16 am »
How many more attempts before SpaceX gives up on first stage landing?  They've tried twice for the barge and crashed both times, with a third attempt called off by rough waves.  Three prior return tests without the barge also had mixed results.  These experiments are bold and interesting, but they're not free.

 - Ed Kyle

Sure they're free. NASA paid for the rocket. SpaceX isn't selling them at a loss as far as I'm aware.
SpaceX is spending a lot of engineering effort on reusability, and on these experiments, in addition to the actual costs of the barge and recovery team, etc.  Development engineering is not cheap (engineering hours time money), and since the stages keep crashing it appears that more development engineering, and therefore more money, is needed to make it work.  If a stage can be made to actually land and survive, it is still only the first step in the development process.  What I'm wondering is how many more crashes the company accepts before abandoning the idea altogether.  There is a number, and it is not infinite.

 - Ed Kyle

You're funny, Ed. Should a marathon runner give up when the finishing line is in sight? It would be one thing if the stages didn't get so close... but now?  ::)

These tests are very low costs for them. Spent stages on paid for flights. It would be one thing if they were losing dedicated test articles (like F9R-Dev1) on a monthly basis, but that is not what is going on here. And the data they are gaining at very low cost is invaluable for any kind of future work in this direction. Every failure teaches more lessons, informing decision trees about what to do and not do.

You still can't seem to wrap your head around what they are doing - or not doing - almost as if they speak a completely different language.


Offline John-H

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #52 on: 04/15/2015 12:22 am »
If you are landing in mid-ocean it is very likely that you will have a wind of 10 or 15 knots. If you try to compensate for that with a rocket that is very tall and very light on top, you will have to tip it at a significant angle.  You will touch down with one leg first and the rocket will snap to vertical while the wind is still trying to push it over. The bounce and roll could be 'interesting'

John

Offline dglow

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #53 on: 04/15/2015 12:22 am »
How many more attempts before SpaceX gives up on first stage landing?  They've tried twice for the barge and crashed both times, with a third attempt called off by rough waves.  Three prior return tests without the barge also had mixed results.  These experiments are bold and interesting, but they're not free.

 - Ed Kyle

SpaceX is spending a lot of engineering effort on reusability, and on these experiments, in addition to the actual costs of the barge and recovery team, etc.  Development engineering is not cheap (engineering hours time money), and since the stages keep crashing it appears that more development engineering, and therefore more money, is needed to make it work.  If a stage can be made to actually land and survive, it is still only the first step in the development process.  What I'm wondering is how many more crashes the company accepts before abandoning the idea altogether.  There is a number, and it is not infinite.

 - Ed Kyle

On its face your fundamental question is reasonable. The way you're phrased it, however, is loaded. "How long until SX gives up"... really? That makes them sound like quitters... a trait most reasonable minds won't likely associate with the company. Wouldn't you agree?

So tell us: are you seeking a genuine answer here? Because all I see over the last two pages are predictable responses to your hyperbolic questions. Congratulations, you've stirred the pot. Was that the goal?

If I've misunderstood, please help me understand – and accept my apologies in advance.

Offline Jim

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #54 on: 04/15/2015 12:28 am »
even if they land it, it doesn't mean they can reuse the stage.

Offline punder

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #55 on: 04/15/2015 12:30 am »
even if they land it, it doesn't mean they can reuse the stage.

Can't find out if you don't try.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #56 on: 04/15/2015 01:44 am »
even if they land it, it doesn't mean they can reuse the stage.

Very true, but Ed posed the question about when they would give up on stage landing.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #57 on: 04/15/2015 01:53 am »
I wonder if the prop/LOX sloshing around is contributing factor to the stability on final approach...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline sanman

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #58 on: 04/15/2015 01:57 am »
I thought there's almost no prop/LOX left at the end.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Landing the F9 V1.1 first stage
« Reply #59 on: 04/15/2015 02:03 am »
I thought there's almost no prop/LOX left at the end.
Supposed to be at touchdown, but it seems to be flying onto the deck rather than dropping onto the deck(hover-slam). It’s just a thought... We need real numbers on residuals if any. Anyways the horizontal component should be zero ideally.
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

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