Author Topic: Scaling Agriculture on Mars  (Read 574110 times)

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1140 on: 09/25/2017 06:31 pm »
To process regolith into actual soil we will need to transfer entire soil communities from earth. We are moving bacterial communities anyway from earth, mostly in our digestive tracts, so it will happen, though it will be a very awesome experiment to see what species colonize what. Hydroponic substrate has a finite lifetime, not to mention that the regolith will not become good substrate without some processing, at least a wash to reduce the perchlorates. I see old substrate forming the start of quasi natural soil. It is cheaper to use nitrogen fixing bacteria than to produce all the nitrogen we need chemically

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1141 on: 09/25/2017 06:59 pm »
Hydroponic substrate has a finite lifetime


That's the main reason I am not totally convinced hydroponics is the long term solution for Mars. For some purposes yes, but not for all.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1142 on: 09/25/2017 07:30 pm »
To process regolith into actual soil we will need to transfer entire soil communities from earth. We are moving bacterial communities anyway from earth, mostly in our digestive tracts, so it will happen, though it will be a very awesome experiment to see what species colonize what. Hydroponic substrate has a finite lifetime, not to mention that the regolith will not become good substrate without some processing, at least a wash to reduce the perchlorates. I see old substrate forming the start of quasi natural soil. It is cheaper to use nitrogen fixing bacteria than to produce all the nitrogen we need chemically
My instinct is there's going to need to be some specialized chemical processing (not necessarily complex, but unusual by Earth standards) of the regolith to remove the more noxious chemicals, then add in the remains from an anaerobic digester, possibly with some non standard bacteria to deliver the final well balanced growing medium.
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1143 on: 09/26/2017 03:18 am »
Yeah, I think hydroponics is the way to go for a while. Eventually we'll make soil by composting stuff, but it'll take a while, and hydroponics has a lot going for it.

I still think 90% of our calories will be grown in a vat (or grown in a vat before being fed to animals like fish or something), not in a field (hydroponic or otherwise). This will be true for a very long time, probably indefinitely. It's just ultimately a more efficient use of resources. And contrary to what Aegean claims, on Mars nitrogen fixation will be more efficient if done chemically, and this will probably be true until we terraform the place.

Washed Mars rocks can serve as hydroponic media. When it gets clogged with roots and stuff, we can crush it and mix with compost to make true soil.
« Last Edit: 09/26/2017 04:14 am by Robotbeat »
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Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1144 on: 09/26/2017 03:32 am »
Yeah, I think hydroponics is the way to go for a while. Eventually we'll make soil by composting stuff, but it'll take a while, and hydroponics has a lot going for it.

I still think 90% of our calories will be grown in a vat (or grown in a vat before being fed to animals like fish or something), not in a field (hydroponic or otherwise). This will be true for a very long time, probably indefinitely. It's just ultimately a more efficient use of resources. And contrary to what Aegean claims, on Mars nitrogen fixation will be more efficient if done chemically, and this will probably be true until we terraform the place.

Washed Mars rocks can serve as hydroponic media. When it gets clogged with roots and stuff, we can crush it and mix with compost to make true soil.

Vertical farming is getting a lot of VC attention these days, so I think we'll be growing food in the air instead of in vats on Mars.

One example that seems ready made for shipment to Mars: Freight Farms

"The 2017 Leafy Green Machine™ is a fully assembled, vertical hydroponic farming system built inside a 40-ft. shipping container.

The LGM™ is capable of growing lettuces, herbs, and hearty greens at commercial scale in any climate or location. It enables any individual, community, or organization to grow fresh produce year-round.
"

It produces (here on Earth) 2-4 tons of produce per year, 52 harvests per year, and uses less than 10 gallons of water per day (which might be mitigated in a closed loop environment).

For another perspective, I found this article to be surprising (but some of our members, from this country, won't):

This Tiny Country Feeds the World - National Geographic

After reading that article I truly felt that we'd be able to feed a growing colony on Mars - that we would know how to do it, if it was possible at all.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1145 on: 09/26/2017 10:05 am »
on Mars nitrogen fixation will be more efficient if done chemically, and this will probably be true until we terraform the place.

It is even true on earth. Most of our nitrogen fertilizer is produced chemically.

Offline sghill

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1146 on: 09/26/2017 03:21 pm »
Combination growing styles where a soil matrix is used in combination with hydroponic-style feeding are extremely common. 

The last tomato you ate was probably grown that way under a greenhouse, but in soil down in Mexico or in Spain.

BTW, the same machine my company makes to create nitrate fertilizer from atmospheric nitrogen also can be used to breakdown soil perchlorates. The plasma reactors create hydroxyl radicals (*OH) that do all of the work.

Bring the thunder!

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1147 on: 09/26/2017 06:53 pm »
Per definition, the start of Martian agriculture will be hydroponics, irrespective if it is with substrate from earth or Martian regolith, for the simple reason that there are no soil bacteria on Mars. Soil based farming will follow, though the traditional farm fallow cycle will take very long to be adopted, if ever. There is an advantage to only providing part of the nitrogen as opposed to the all of the nitrogen chemically, but the nitrogen fixing bacteria need first to be acclimated. I am a big fan of Netherlands agriculture, I have always seen it as THE model of leading edge agriculture (hydroponic greenhouses), as opposed to the American model of no till transgenic crops. I am not a great fan of vertical farms, even a high end greenhouse requires rebuilding the frame every few years due to corrosion. When you have real loads on the frame, how often will you need to change it and how much will it cost? On top of that comes the shading issue, plant protection (meaning pests and diseases) which might be an advantage compared to single floor or a disadvantage and that some plants will grow as tall as you allow them, e.g. tomatoes. Now, meat from a vat, not a fan at all. Animals convert what humans can't eat into calories. Feeding a vat requires all sorts of complex transformations, as opposed to grain and hay. When you can feed a vat corn seed and stalks, as opposed to a nutrient solution, I'll become a fan

Offline Paul451

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1148 on: 09/27/2017 09:06 am »
Per definition, the start of Martian agriculture will be hydroponics,

Just to be clear, are you using "hydroponics" as a catch-all to refer to all forms of soil-less plant cultivation, or do you mean that you don't think similar-but-different systems like aeroponics will work for a Mars colony?

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1149 on: 10/02/2017 03:52 am »
Per definition, the start of Martian agriculture will be hydroponics,

Just to be clear, are you using "hydroponics" as a catch-all to refer to all forms of soil-less plant cultivation, or do you mean that you don't think similar-but-different systems like aeroponics will work for a Mars colony?

In my hydroponics book I was taught in college aeroponics was a subcategory of hydroponics. There definition of hydroponics I know is "a system of cultivation that does not use soil and the nutrients are delivered through a liquid solution". The categorization I know divides hydroponics into three categories: using a solid medium for the roots, using no medium and only a liquid solution and using absolutely no medium and spraying directly the nutrients in the root which is suspended in mid air, a.k.a. aeroponics

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1150 on: 10/02/2017 03:54 am »
Update from Veggie 03-D they are growing three different varieties for the first time

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/news/wklysumm_week_of_25sept17.html

<quote>
(Highlights: Week of September 25, 2017) - It's planting season on the International Space Station as crew members installed hardware to grow another crop of vegetables in space while another investigation discovered a new black hole in deep space.

NASA astronaut Joe Acaba prepared the Veggie facility for three different kinds of lettuce seeds as part of the VEG-03-D investigation. This is the first time seeds from multiple kinds of plants are being grown in the facility all at the same time. Understanding how plants respond to microgravity is an important step for future long-duration space missions, which will require crew members to grow their own food. Crew members on the station have previously grown lettuce and flowers in the facility. This new series of the study expands on previous validation tests.

Veggie provides lighting and necessary nutrients for plants in the form of a low-cost growth chamber and planting pillows, which deliver nutrients to the root system. The Veggie pillow concept is a low-maintenance, modular system that requires no additional energy beyond a special light to help the plants grow. It supports a variety of plant species that can be cultivated for fresh food, and even for education experiments.

Crew members have commented that they enjoy space gardening, and investigators believe growing plants could provide a psychological benefit to crew members on long-duration missions, just as gardening is often an enjoyable hobby for people on Earth. Data from this investigation could benefit agricultural practices on Earth by designing systems that use valuable resources such as water more efficiently.

</quote>

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1151 on: 10/30/2017 08:31 pm »

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1152 on: 12/04/2017 11:30 pm »

Offline slavvy

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1153 on: 12/05/2017 07:07 am »

Offline guckyfan

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Offline docmordrid

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1155 on: 12/13/2017 05:36 am »
There was an earlier mention of rapeseed oil (canola), but perhaps it should be removed from the Mars menu. A recent mouse study showed it to be associated with increased amyloid plaque formation. Olive oil was not.

Association isn't causation, but this demands extensive follow-up study.

https://medicine.temple.edu/news/canola-oil-linked-worsened-memory-and-learning-ability-alzheimers-disease-temple-researchers
« Last Edit: 12/13/2017 05:40 am by docmordrid »
DM

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1156 on: 12/13/2017 05:38 am »
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1157 on: 12/18/2017 10:19 pm »
Biologist Announces Plans To Grow Vegetables On Mars

http://www.valuewalk.com/2017/12/grow-vegetables-on-mars/

Apparently he is using a system he designed to grow marijuana indoors. Somehow I don't think that growing marijuana will be a priority unlike Jamestown.

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1158 on: 12/20/2017 10:18 pm »
Spirulina goes to the ISS to see how it lives in space. It is part of MELiSSA which is also sending more experiments to the ISS to see how biological ECLSS will work:

http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Human_Spaceflight/Research/Planting_oxygen

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #1159 on: 12/27/2017 11:22 pm »
Growing Mizuna On The International Space Station

http://spaceref.com/international-space-station/growing-mizuna-on-the-international-space-station.html

No idea what is mizuna

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