Author Topic: Commercial LEO Destinations Development  (Read 235203 times)

Offline RoadWithoutEnd

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #60 on: 06/29/2021 05:19 am »
Op-ed | Mind the gap in low Earth orbit

Quote
NASA’s desire to continuously fly two crew members in LEO and perform 200 investigations per year is a good start.

How is that a good start?  Dragon alone can guarantee several times more than that, and Dragon + Soyuz well past that.

The low expectations of NASA human spaceflight programs were bothersome years ago.  Now they are outright offensive.
Walk the road without end, and all tomorrows unfold like music.

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #61 on: 07/01/2021 09:53 am »
Another batch of Q&As arising from the CLD pre-proposal conference have been posted by NASA.
The document also includes the original 12 Q&As posted earlier.

https://sam.gov/opp/b200e7043b6047d8bd9ebc6aed54b2cd/view

(copy attached)

Offline su27k

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #62 on: 07/02/2021 11:05 am »
Another batch of Q&As arising from the CLD pre-proposal conference have been posted by NASA.
The document also includes the original 12 Q&As posted earlier.

https://sam.gov/opp/b200e7043b6047d8bd9ebc6aed54b2cd/view

(copy attached)

I wonder what is this rant about:

Quote
59. QUESTION: In our commercialization programs with NASA, NASA likes to control what we do. NASA says it has first right of refusal, playing both sides. Do you plan to control CLD like you do on other “commercial” programs?

Offline high road

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #63 on: 07/02/2021 11:24 am »
Op-ed | Mind the gap in low Earth orbit

Quote
NASA’s desire to continuously fly two crew members in LEO and perform 200 investigations per year is a good start.

How is that a good start?  Dragon alone can guarantee several times more than that, and Dragon + Soyuz well past that.

The low expectations of NASA human spaceflight programs were bothersome years ago.  Now they are outright offensive.

Given the success of DragonLab, Dragon guarantees 0 experiments (I assume that's a bad translation from french or somesuch). It's about who pays for those experiments. Once NASA (co)funds the 200 experiments and logistics to run them, adding additional/using spare capacity for commercial customers can be done much cheaper.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #64 on: 07/03/2021 10:01 pm »
Op-ed | Mind the gap in low Earth orbit

Quote
NASA’s desire to continuously fly two crew members in LEO and perform 200 investigations per year is a good start.

How is that a good start?  Dragon alone can guarantee several times more than that, and Dragon + Soyuz well past that.

The low expectations of NASA human spaceflight programs were bothersome years ago.  Now they are outright offensive.
NASA or other government agencies are likely to fund additional experiments on commercial stations using stations crew.

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Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #65 on: 07/04/2021 01:34 am »
Another batch of Q&As arising from the CLD pre-proposal conference have been posted by NASA.
The document also includes the original 12 Q&As posted earlier.

https://sam.gov/opp/b200e7043b6047d8bd9ebc6aed54b2cd/view

(copy attached)

Here are some of the more interesting questions:

Quote from: Q&A
10. QUESTION: Does NASA have a requirement for “anytime return” from the CLD, necessitating an emergency escape vehicle capable of supporting everyone on board be docked at all times?

ANSWER: NASA has no requirements during Phase 1. At this time, NASA intends to require our crew to be transported on NASA certified crew transportation systems during Phase 2. The requirements for that certification includes emergency return capability, and therefore, there is no separate CLD requirement for emergency escape.

25. QUESTION: Is the transition ISS is off one day, CLD is on the next?

ANSWER: Assume a two-year transition.

35. QUESTION: Is there a safety concern with inflatable? Does BEAM need MMOD upgrade?

ANSWER: We don’t have a specific safety concern with inflatables. Our evaluation will depend upon your proposed design.

37. QUESTION: What is the timing for the phase 2 competition?

ANSWER: Industry can expect to hear about it about 12 months before contract start date. For purposes of the proposal, participants shall assume Phase 2 service contract award at the beginning of FY26.

56. QUESTION: Will NASA start buying services in FY29? When will payments start?

ANSWER: Yes, assume some services to NASA will begin in FY29. We don’t know when payments would start, but document your assumptions in your Phase 1 proposal. You might consider the schedule of progress payments in launch contracts.

76. QUESTION: Will Appendix I contractor [i.e., Axiom] be eligible for additional funding under this.

ANSWER: The NextStep Appendix I contractor is not precluded from proposing on CLD Phase 1. As stated in the draft Announcement, NASA will not pay any CLD participant for work that is within the scope of another U.S. Government contract or agreement.
« Last Edit: 07/04/2021 01:41 am by yg1968 »

Offline Alvian@IDN

Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #66 on: 07/04/2021 02:36 am »
Charts for the "CLD Virtual Pre-Proposal Conference" have been posted today on SAM.gov.

Link: https://sam.gov/opp/569b413526eb498eb22de16f5ebf1dc3/view

A copy is attached (51 pages).  A schedule was included on page 17.
Note that "Announcement for Proposals Released" didn't happen in June 2021
My parents was just being born when the Apollo program is over. Why we are still stuck in this stagnation, let's go forward again

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #67 on: 07/04/2021 10:10 am »
Charts for the "CLD Virtual Pre-Proposal Conference" have been posted today on SAM.gov.

Link: https://sam.gov/opp/569b413526eb498eb22de16f5ebf1dc3/view

A copy is attached (51 pages).  A schedule was included on page 17.
Note that "Announcement for Proposals Released" didn't happen in June 2021

Latest info on the RFP is:

Quote
Competition Schedule

    • On or about July 9 - Final Announcement Release
    • 45 days later - Proposals Due

https://procurement.jsc.nasa.gov/CLD/

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #68 on: 07/08/2021 09:55 pm »
Yet more pre-proposal Q&As released, together with an updated interested parties list (Rev 2):

https://sam.gov/opp/6c10f11eb78349a981e8f404a6a5a489/view

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #69 on: 07/12/2021 10:11 pm »
Quote from: Marcia Smith
NASA just released the final announcement soliciting proposals for phase I of the Commercial LEO Destinations project.

Proposals due August 26.

https://sam.gov/opp/2f2eacc157274cd6a3d134f25b1c4505/view

https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/1414701818333077504

https://twitter.com/KathyLueders/status/1414728110097018884
« Last Edit: 07/12/2021 11:38 pm by yg1968 »

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #70 on: 07/12/2021 10:22 pm »
The final version of the CLD Phase 1 request for proposals (RFP) was posted today. Proposals are due by August 26, 2021.

https://sam.gov/opp/2f2eacc157274cd6a3d134f25b1c4505/view
https://procurement.jsc.nasa.gov/CLD/

Copy of RFP Announcement attached.

(pipped to the post I see  :) )

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #71 on: 07/13/2021 09:05 pm »
A generic Space Act Agreement (SAA) between NASA and [XYZ Corporation] for Commercial Low Earth Orbit Destinations (CLD) Phase 1 has been posted today.

Link: https://sam.gov/opp/f4f7dbcecacb4a9b946ea95d67166ae3/view

The SAA has been posted as a Word document, but I've attached a pdf version for convenience.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #72 on: 08/19/2021 03:02 pm »
A revised final announcement was posted on August 5th (attached). I am guessing that this is the last revision since proposals are due next week (on August 26th).

https://sam.gov/opp/6ab6a554434f469f9f7f95783489e821/view
« Last Edit: 01/10/2022 11:43 pm by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #73 on: 08/27/2021 07:51 pm »
Proposals were due yesterday.

Online jketch

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Offline DreamyPickle

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #75 on: 09/21/2021 12:50 pm »
Why invest in free flyers? It seems like it would be more effective to help develop commercial "wings" of the ISS itself. For example we could have the Axiom wing, the Sierra wing and Blue Origin wing.

I know that in the absence of a vehicle like that shuttle all modules need independent power and propulsion so attaching to the ISS doesn't actually reduce any complexity.

NASA wants to send actual crew to these destinations so they need to be extremely safe and reliable; so safe that they wouldn't pose a risk even if attached directly to the ISS.

Having multiple dissimilar systems for power, life support and so on attached to the ISS would arguably increase reliability if you can transfer resources. Make modules from different vendors interoperable would require some shared standard and NASA would be in a position to mediate those.

It would at least be helpful to put them all in the same orbit so that in case of emergency it is possible to transfer crew between them.

Offline tbellman

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #76 on: 09/21/2021 03:57 pm »
Why invest in free flyers? It seems like it would be more effective to help develop commercial "wings" of the ISS itself. For example we could have the Axiom wing, the Sierra wing and Blue Origin wing.

Then you would need to still maintain ISS, with all its costs.  ISS is starting to get old, and old things tend to break more often, and be more expensive to repair (e.g. due to parts no longer being manufactured).  NASA hopes to be able to spend less money on LEO stations.  They also want get out of the business of maintaining the station(s) themselves, and I doubt any commercial actor would be willing to take over the task of maintaining ISS (since they would need to charge significantly less money than the current costs of maintaining it).

A brand new station design could perhaps also be designed to be easier and cheaper to maintain, and/or have higher quality in various ways, if it doesn't need legacy compatibility with ISS.  Hopefully humankind has learned a few things from operating ISS and can make something better now.  If it needs to be connected to 30 year old modules (the oldest parts of ISS are 22 years old now), I think it is likely to be figuratively dragged down by them.

Quote from: DreamyPickle
NASA wants to send actual crew to these destinations so they need to be extremely safe and reliable; so safe that they wouldn't pose a risk even if attached directly to the ISS.

More the other way around.  An aging ISS could rather be considered to pose a risk to newer station modules, if they must be attached together.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #77 on: 09/22/2021 02:32 pm »
Plus, the free flying stations are allowed to dock with the space station but they aren't allowed to stay there.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #78 on: 09/22/2021 03:36 pm »
Sounds like NASA has received about 12 proposals.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/20/nasa-evaluating-private-space-station-proposals-for-iss-replacement.html

Awards should before the end of the year according to Phil McAlister:

Quote from: Michael Sheetz
NASA is now evaluating the proposals, and McAlister said the agency hopes to announce the contract winners “before the end of the year,” although he is “pushing for earlier.” McAlister noted that the dozen or so proposals came from a “diverse group of companies,” ranging from start-ups to large aerospace corporations.
« Last Edit: 09/22/2021 03:37 pm by yg1968 »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Commercial LEO Destinations Development
« Reply #79 on: 09/22/2021 05:06 pm »
Have a separate stations allows for different enviroments based on what station is being used for.

Unmanned stations are preferred for manufacturing as humans create lot of vibrates, plus enviroment can be varied. Eg low temp, low oxygen or even vaccuum..

Tourist station might want low artifical gravity in parts to make daily human activities more pleasant.  This would generate a lot vibration. Plus scientists don't want to share their space with tourists especially if high value IP is involved.





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