Author Topic: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?  (Read 46422 times)

Offline sfxtd

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #120 on: 07/17/2008 10:36 am »
Quote
Whenever I'm confronted with a hoaxer I make them watch Dave Scott's experiment and challenge them to replicate it on Earth.
...

I do recall one time seeing an attempt to duplicate it on Earth.

They did get the feather and hamer to fall at about the same rate but there was trick to it. They held the feather perpendicular to the ground, which naturaly reduces its air resitence.

However if you look closly at Dave Scott's experiment he held the feather parallel to the ground which would have maximized its air resitence on Earth.

Some one not whatching closely may not have seen the difference. This is known as a bait and switch tactic.
[/quote]

One could conceivably replicate this effect in the Space Environmental Simulation Laboratory, or similar facility, eliminating any significant air resistance, combined with a 1/6g  slow-motion effect. Not that I believe it was done, but just to be prepared for the argument. Of course, if it was done, someone would have proof and would have talked by now.

Offline cpcjr

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #121 on: 07/17/2008 12:39 pm »
Whenever I'm confronted with a hoaxer I make them watch Dave Scott's experiment and challenge them to replicate it on Earth.
...

I do recall one time seeing an attempt to duplicate it on Earth.

They did get the feather and hamer to fall at about the same rate but there was trick to it. They held the feather perpendicular to the ground, which naturaly reduces its air resitence.

However if you look closly at Dave Scott's experiment he held the feather parallel to the ground which would have maximized its air resitence on Earth.

Some one not whatching closely may not have seen the difference. This is known as a bait and switch tactic.

One could conceivably replicate this effect in the Space Environmental Simulation Laboratory, or similar facility, eliminating any significant air resistance, combined with a 1/6g  slow-motion effect. Not that I believe it was done, but just to be prepared for the argument. Of course, if it was done, someone would have proof and would have talked by now.

Yes, one could replicate the effect in a vacum chamber but the moon hoax crowd claims it was all done on a sound stage. That would requier one big vacum chamber.

To have done this experment in the Space Environmental Simulation Laboratory and then edit in with specal affects would have been more trouble than it's worth.

If they had faked the landings, they would have most likely done this expirment feather perpendicular to the ground or not bothered with it at all.

One good question for the hoax crowd would be to ask: What kind of evidence they would consider proof that the Moon landings were real?
« Last Edit: 07/17/2008 12:45 pm by cpcjr »

Offline marsavian

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Offline marsavian

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #123 on: 07/19/2008 09:04 pm »

Offline khallow

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #124 on: 07/21/2008 04:31 am »
Notice how long it took them to set up that flag too. Not very cinamatic there.

Another example would be film from a moving lunar rover. I gather (though I haven't seen anything other than brief clips) that they have a nice, long, unbroken block of film showing the view from the front of the lunar rover. Very hard to do that in a movie.

If there is a side shot, one should be able to see the change in perspective, not just of nearby objects, but also distant objects like ridges. Now to fake those lunar landings, we need a studio that's several miles across or that's vastly smaller in size. But such film would also correlate in places with film of standing astronauts.
Karl Hallowell

Offline Tschachim

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #125 on: 07/21/2008 01:21 pm »
Hi haywoodfloyd,

I fear you underestimate the "creativity" of the conspiracy people here:

Nowhere have I ever seen that they claim that the lift-off was faked...i mean, how can you ignore something that big and that loud?
So the lift-off was real.

You're right that most conspiracy nuts believe in the existence of the Saturn V, but I've even seen that claim with the usual explanation that all spectators were government agents or possessed by aliens or whatever...

I have never heard any of them say that the orbit and rendezvous of all the Gemini missions were faked...

This I see quite oftenly, a lot of conspiracy nuts don't believe we went to space at all. A smaller fraction of that don't believe that there's space at all. ... or a Moon...

And I've never heard any of them say that sitting in an Apollo Capsule for 3 days on the way to the Moon was more difficult than sitting in a Gemini or Apollo capsule orbiting the Earth.

Don't forget the absolutely lethal space radiation...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Moon_Landing_hoax_accusations#Ionizing_radiation_and_heat

One good question for the hoax crowd would be to ask: What kind of evidence they would consider proof that the Moon landings were real?

That's the real problem here, the answer would be that there is no such evidence, of course, because the moon landings are fake obviously... You can't argue with someone who doesn't know how arguing works...

Cheers
Tschachim

Offline cpcjr

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #126 on: 07/21/2008 02:39 pm »
I have never heard any of them say that the orbit and rendezvous of all the Gemini missions were faked...

This I see quite oftenly, a lot of conspiracy nuts don't believe we went to space at all. A smaller fraction of that don't believe that there's space at all. ... or a Moon...

Then what exactly is it that we see in the sky? The existance of the Moon is real easy to prove, just look up in the sky on most clear nights and there it is.

Quote
One good question for the hoax crowd would be to ask: What kind of evidence they would consider proof that the Moon landings were real?

That's the real problem here, the answer would be that there is no such evidence, of course, because the moon landings are fake obviously... You can't argue with someone who doesn't know how arguing works...

That would not be an answer but a dodging of the question, that makes them  politicians not scientists 

Which would only prove that there is no evidence that would change their mind and thus make any descussion a waste of time. It is also exactly the type of answer I would exspect.

« Last Edit: 07/21/2008 02:43 pm by cpcjr »

Offline Tschachim

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #127 on: 07/21/2008 04:08 pm »
Then what exactly is it that we see in the sky? The existance of the Moon is real easy to prove, just look up in the sky on most clear nights and there it is.

Yet another alien or governmental (or both) device to fool the public. Of course this is a very extreme form of conspiracy stuff I find really rarely (thank god  :)).

Which would only prove that there is no evidence that would change their mind and thus make any descussion a waste of time.

Exactly! Unfortunatly for me it takes a lot of discipline to keep that in mind, I'm wasting far too much time to discuss with conspiracy nuts (hope dies last...  ;)).

Cheers
Tschachim

Offline E_ E_ H

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #128 on: 07/22/2008 08:48 am »
Ignorance is bliss... If only they knew what knowledge is!!!
Ground control to Major Chris....

Offline xray-delta-niner

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #129 on: 07/26/2008 02:06 pm »
I am 54 years old. In 1969, I was 15.

I clearly recall in 1969, many people, in conversation, being skeptical about men having been to the Moon. Sadly, it was mostly the older, less educated, and poorest people, who ventured this opinion. The media seldom bothered to feature anyone with this view because it was so limited to this clearly deluded minority. The public, in general, had a definite pride in our space achievements that today could only be compared with our feelings for the heroes of the twin towers of 9-11. In 1969, a very high percentage of young people strongly believed in the reality of the spaceflights, and many were very enthusiastic and -- dare I say -- inspired by the landings on the Moon. Many of those people are the engineers, scientists, and astronauts in the space industry today.

So why do so many people today believe that Apollo was faked?

I think the strongest reason is that many people alive today were born after the Moon landings. They can only experience those events in a photo or video or audio clip. They have no concept of the shared, truly global experience of the Apollo landings -- and especially, of course, of Apollo 11, the first human steps on another world! Almost everyone -- at least in American society -- who was alive and over the age of infancy in 1969 can even now still recall at least a hint of a true collective human awareness from those July days, 39 years ago.

With the words "one giant leap for mankind", the sheer, awesome significance of stepping into another world -- and by doing so to cleave all history into times before and after that instant -- was amazingly expressed quite aptly by the modest engineer who represented nothing less than all of humanity throughout all of time in that moment. President Richard Nixon and his speechwriters -- regardless of whatever their crimes might have been later -- captured a poignant sense of the uniqueness of it all in the words: "For one priceless moment, in the whole history of Man, all the people on this Earth are truly one." And whatever your cynicisms, then or now, that statement -- as high flown as its implications may be -- is a truth that still stands nearly inescapable.

And as powerful as these words may have been to illustrate the significance of what was occuring, for nearly everyone alive at that moment, no words seemed necessary to underscore the rite of passage of our species. Everyone who lived through that event was fundamentally changed by it. Though we may not care to admit it or try to express it, the events of July 20, 1969 changed us. Likewise, for anyone who was in a coma or in North Vietnam or who was not yet born, no amount of replays in any medium can convey that experience and the change in our culture that it represented.

To the arrogant cynics of today, to the nihilistic young of today, to those who prefer conspiracy theories to history, to those who hate science and math or learning in general, to those of a liberal bent who reject the stunning achievement of the most visionary of goals ever set by a democratic President, to those who simply hate anyone and anything older than them, to those secretly envious because it did not happen in their world, on their watch, in their generation -- perhaps no proof, no words, no evidence is sufficient. Perhaps some that think it was all a hoax are somehow confused and furious that the Moon -- and with it, a hope for a better future -- was foolishly abandoned for half a century.

Let us all hope that we will all witness within the next decade a new step upon that ancient world and symbol of the unattainable -- and a new giant leap for a new generation of Humankind -- an even greater leap into a future beyond all our imaginings and toward hopes that we will never again forsake.


Mike Langford     

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #130 on: 07/26/2008 05:10 pm »
(...) To the arrogant cynics of today, to the nihilistic young of today, to those who prefer conspiracy theories to history, to those who hate science and math or learning in general, to those of a liberal bent who reject the stunning achievement of the most visionary of goals ever set by a democratic President, to those who simply hate anyone and anything older than them, to those secretly envious because it did not happen in their world, on their watch, in their generation -- perhaps no proof, no words, no evidence is sufficient. (...)

However, how it happened that since Apollo we, "techies", who are supposedly prefer history to conspiracy theories, love science and math or learning in general, and are proud of the stunning achievement of the most visionary of goals - why we collectively failed to follow on it? Why since after Apollo days US manned spaceflight seems to be stagnating? Didn't we gave "them" a weapon by failing to establish a Moon base for so many years? By failing to build a sustainable manned spaceflight infrastructure?

Why it happened? What is wrong? Isn't $17 billion per year enough for that?

Offline xray-delta-niner

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #131 on: 07/26/2008 06:58 pm »
Why did we collectively fail to follow on it? Why, after Apollo, does US manned spaceflight seem to be stagnating? Didn't we give "them" a weapon by failing to establish a Moon base for so many years? By failing to build a sustainable manned spaceflight infrastructure? Isn't $17 billion per year enough?

Apollo was a great success, so naturally, as the next step, we should be able to improve on it. To push the envelope. To go to the next level. But the sad truth is, as a nation, we have failed to out do ourselves. We can't, so far, in principle, improve on the incredible achievement of Apollo. So what do we do? We go back to Apollo.

But how did this happen? I believe that the problem was obviously partly political, partly technical, and partly economic.

First to the economic question, I'm not so sure NASA has received at least $17 billion (in 2008 dollars?) since 1969. I don't have that information and conversion factors. But I suspect there were more than a few lean years. Maybe we need at least that much and maybe a lot more. I think it's worth it.

Politically, JFK got us up to top speed with his Bold Directive, defined as a Space Race as a centerpiece for the Cold War. Then LBJ kept it going, but then there was Richard Milhous Nixon.

Nixon put his signature -- below the Apollo 11 crew -- on the plaque attached to the landing gear of Eagle, called them while they walked the Moon, greeted the crew after splashdown aboard the Hornet, and generally wined and dined our heroes, extracting as much luster from them as he possibly could.

Then, within two years, Nixon and a democratic Congress let the ax fall. First, Apollo 18 was cancelled. Then Apollo 19 and 20 were gone. And all that magnificent Apollo momentum was totally gone.
 
The plan at that time was for Apollo to evolve into a Space-Tug for translunar operations and a Lunar-Shuttle for landings, while nearer to Earth, Skylab was to become the prototype for a Space-Station, to be serviced by a Space Shuttle. Skylab was well along the road and thus survived budget cuts. Of the rest of the bold plan, only some early developmental funding for the Shuttle survived.

Then the technical problems began, as it proved very difficult to develop and maintain a fully re-useable space vehicle. First off came major compromises in the design, cost over-runs and more, delays and more delays. Early projections had the first orbital Shuttle flight in 1977. We eventually made it, only four years late. Then we couldn't come close to the original plan of a flight each month.

No president from Ford through Clinton had either a strong plan or mandate or Congressional support to begin any new space initiative. And they developed a habit of blaming it on the economy and saying that it was too expensive and that we've got to solve our problems here on Earth first.

Of course, with the Shuttle, we had our major successes and our major failures, but ultimately it proved to be Extremely Expensive to maintain even the first leg of our original planned reuseable space transportation system that would take crew and cargo from Earth to Moon and back on schedule. Moon Base Alpha? We couldn't even come up with Moon Bus Alpha.

Roughly, I figure, when the ISS is completed, we will be about twenty years behind our 1970 plan. That so-called "sustainable manned spaceflight infrastructure" turned out to be a bitch-and-two-thirds to build at any price. And you notice we have basically given up on the "reuseable" concept and gone back to Apollo. For political, technical, and economic reasons, we are Back to the Future with Apollo. A very advanced, ambitious, beefed-up Apollo, but Apollo nevertheless.

That's OK by me. I always liked Apollo. I would love to see us Apollo our way all the way to Saturn. Ex Luna et al Scientia!
   

Offline Jorge

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #132 on: 07/26/2008 07:27 pm »
Why did we collectively fail to follow on it? Why, after Apollo, does US manned spaceflight seem to be stagnating? Didn't we give "them" a weapon by failing to establish a Moon base for so many years? By failing to build a sustainable manned spaceflight infrastructure? Isn't $17 billion per year enough?

Apollo was a great success, so naturally, as the next step, we should be able to improve on it. To push the envelope. To go to the next level. But the sad truth is, as a nation, we have failed to out do ourselves. We can't, so far, in principle, improve on the incredible achievement of Apollo. So what do we do? We go back to Apollo.

But how did this happen? I believe that the problem was obviously partly political, partly technical, and partly economic.

First to the economic question, I'm not so sure NASA has received at least $17 billion (in 2008 dollars?) since 1969. I don't have that information and conversion factors. But I suspect there were more than a few lean years. Maybe we need at least that much and maybe a lot more. I think it's worth it.

Politically, JFK got us up to top speed with his Bold Directive, defined as a Space Race as a centerpiece for the Cold War. Then LBJ kept it going, but then there was Richard Milhous Nixon.

Ah, the eeevil Nixon myth rears its ugly head again. Beloved of space amazing people, it founders on the reef of inconvenient facts.

It was LBJ, not Nixon, who capped the Saturn V production line at 15 rockets, in 1968. LBJ cut NASA funding more in his last three budgets than Nixon did in all six of his.

Nixon was no friend of NASA, to be sure, but most of the damage was already done by the time he took office.

Quote
Then, within two years, Nixon and a democratic Congress let the ax fall. First, Apollo 18 was cancelled. Then Apollo 19 and 20 were gone. And all that magnificent Apollo momentum was totally gone.

Incorrect. Apollo 20 went first, due to NASA's decision to launch Skylab as a dry-lab.

Apollo 15 and 19 came next, then 16-18 were renumbered 15-17. And that happened with the tacit approval of NASA officials such as Owen Maynard and Robert Gilruth, both of whom were glad to see Apollo end before a crew got killed and jeopardized future programs.
 
Quote
The plan at that time was for Apollo to evolve into a Space-Tug for translunar operations and a Lunar-Shuttle for landings, while nearer to Earth, Skylab was to become the prototype for a Space-Station, to be serviced by a Space Shuttle. Skylab was well along the road and thus survived budget cuts. Of the rest of the bold plan, only some early developmental funding for the Shuttle survived.

More or less. But you have the timeline off, way off. Almost all of the paring-down of Apollo Applications occurred under LBJ. By the time Nixon took office, Apollo Applications had already been cut from 26 Saturn IB launches and 19 Saturn V launches, to eight Saturn IB launches and no Saturn V launches. This is very close to how the program actually played out, with one Saturn V launch and four Saturn IB launches (three for Skylab, one for ASTP).

Quote
Then the technical problems began, as it proved very difficult to develop and maintain a fully re-useable space vehicle. First off came major compromises in the design, cost over-runs and more, delays and more delays.

That wasn't the "first off". The "first off" was NASA's decision to attempt the shuttle as an operational vehicle on the first iteration, when it should have been done as an X-vehicle (or more preferably, first in a series of X-vehicles) with no payload capacity at all.

Everything else was a consequence of that original decision - they were effects, not causes.
JRF

Offline Orbiter

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #133 on: 07/26/2008 07:53 pm »
I also notice that many people that believe that the moon Landings were fake have no real scientific background, at most maybe an English Master's Degree. They don't realize the scientific part of it, and only go by what they see on TV. Most of them haven't an idea of the equipment that was used on the moon.
KSC Engineer, astronomer, rocket photographer.

Offline cpcjr

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #134 on: 07/26/2008 08:26 pm »
Then what exactly is it that we see in the sky? The existance of the Moon is real easy to prove, just look up in the sky on most clear nights and there it is.

Yet another alien or governmental (or both) device to fool the public. Of course this is a very extreme form of conspiracy stuff I find really rarely (thank god  :)).

This gives conspiracy nuts a bad name. Its a total denial of reality.

Offline Orbiter

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #135 on: 07/26/2008 08:38 pm »
Then what exactly is it that we see in the sky? The existance of the Moon is real easy to prove, just look up in the sky on most clear nights and there it is.

Yet another alien or governmental (or both) device to fool the public. Of course this is a very extreme form of conspiracy stuff I find really rarely (thank god  :)).

This gives conspiracy nuts a bad name. Its a total denial of reality.

There are things just as bad.
KSC Engineer, astronomer, rocket photographer.

nobodyofconsequence

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #136 on: 07/26/2008 10:16 pm »
It's very short and simple. People resent being felt to be made small by something bigger than they are, and retaliate with unreasonable, unjustified ridicule.

When the society values boldness, the few like this are endured as hopeless, useless crackpots. When our society, like now, values self-absorbtion and narrowmindedness more than reaching beyond our current grasp, then this is an accepted opinion for many to hold, regardless of truth.

What you describe here is more of a sickness that is unacknowledged, in fact seen by some falsely as a virtue. The measure of it in the number of adherents is a metric on the health, on the virtue of us as a society.

Offline xray-delta-niner

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #137 on: 07/27/2008 07:30 am »
NobodyofConsequence speaks as one of GreatConsequence with a concise, articulate, accurate analysis of our present sorry state. Your interpretation of our collective psyche's anti-intellectual state of denial is as clear and wise as our cultural moorings are muddy and decrepit.

When profound ignorance becomes a popular virtue, soundbite lies become archival facts, and trite platitudes become great inspiration, where is our hope as a civilization? It is not with our institutions mired in the status quo.

Space exploration could be a path out of this quagmire, but it may take more than a few very brave and very brilliant minds to blaze the trail. 

Offline m330533

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #138 on: 07/27/2008 11:10 am »
I was thinking a lot about even leaving a comment on this subject or not, but after reading some of the comments already left here, besides after having watched the (in my personal opinion) really stunning fantastic Disc.Ch. documentary 'WhenWeLeftEarth' and in addition having seen a subject-related german TV-issue of 'Have we really been on the moon' (maybe someone's seen it, too, aired shortly on N24), here what I have in my mind...

As long as there and is anything positive happening (or already happened), there always will be an opposite of people being against it at all or even being against any success at all (regardless which subject).
Besides there will always be some ... people stating: 'It wont be true or the truth unless I have seen it with my own eyes or unless been a part of it or discovered it myself'.
I know, that Iam going to 'lean myself of the window' (as its really nothing to do with this very great forum at all, so please forgive me) but it reminds me everytime in the same way, as youll always and still ( ! ) find some people stating in the same way, that the Hollocaust was a total lie and hasnt exist ... because 'they havent seen it with their own eyes' (like stated here a few words earlier).

Its, for me, impossible to follow whats in their mind and why.

Its a shame and really disappointing, but we wont ever change them and that situation ever.

Offline on-orbit

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #139 on: 07/27/2008 12:36 pm »
Human nature, do NOT let it get to you.There is always a segment of society that believes strange things because they *want* to believe them, and of course plenty of people happy to exploit that. Simply provide the facts and oppose the nonsense in a calm way. It can get old, but view it as a chance to educate about science and skeptical thinking.

I agree,

Some believe the Apollo fake stories for the same reason many believe that 9/11 was plotted and executed by the CIA or the Israeli Mossad - depending on who you ask.

Some people  - but not only the young, pimpled kids - will go to any lengths to make reality fit their sick "theories" and beliefs. This pathetic bunch easily falls pray to any propaganda and disinformation which fit their distorted views.

Two good books to read in this light are:

"INTELLECTUAL MORONS"
How Ideology Makes Smart People Fall for Stupid Ideas
by Daniel J. Flynn
ISBN-13: 978-1-4000-5356-8
ISBN-10: 1-4000-5356-0

and (ironically) a NYT best-seller:

"BIAS"
A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News
by Bernard Goldberg
ISBN-0-06-052084-1

It is frightening to see that the current mainstream media (Reuters, CNN, BBC, NY Times, The Independent, The Guardian etc.) and some less-obvious organizations manipulate reality to the point that you cannot rely on any of them for a "clean", reporting-only content. I am yet to see or read a piece of news or report from the above-mentioned media which was not tainted to a significant degree by bias, activism, malicious innuendo, pompous drama, facts distortion, out-of-context quotes and/or double-talk. Whenever I see news on these and other channels I ask myself 'Who do these reports serve?' and I always reach the same conclusion - NOT ME!

In the past, media was considered the "guarding dogs of democracy and freedom". These days media is just that - dogs.

Sorry for the clouds.
« Last Edit: 07/27/2008 02:34 pm by on-orbit »

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