Poll

Should there be more limits on who can post UPDATES in SpaceX

Yes
162 (50.9%)
No
156 (49.1%)

Total Members Voted: 318


Author Topic: Poll: Should there be more limits on who can post UPDATES in SpaceX threads?  (Read 33990 times)

Offline SirBlah

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As someone who has been lurking this forum for quite a few years now (I don't really have anything interesting to say, so that probably won't change) I do feel like part of the issue comes down to just how crowded this specific sub-section has become over the few years.

There's a ton of threads with extremely similar sounding titles to the point where even I have difficulty keeping track of which thread I'm looking at, everything simply moves too quickly with threads constantly jumping up and down the stack every time you refresh the page. I was going to suggest building some kind of colour coded tagging system to make it easy to see the topic of each thread at a glance (I still think that would be useful) but really a easier solution might be to just use the thread sticky/pinning feature more effectively -

What I mean by that is if the most recent Updates & Discussion threads were pinned to the top of the sub forum then they would be fixed into place on the page, becoming fixed points of reference which users would see as distinct from the regular threads that make up this forum - you could have something like:

1: Starship SN11 Test Launch Campaign - UPDATES
2: SpaceX Boca Chica - Production Updates - MASTER Thread (4)
3: SpaceX Starship : Texas Prototype(s) Thread 20 : Discussion
etc

But I'd also make sure that the threads follow the same naming convections as well. I'd also put UPDATES or DISCUSSION in all caps either at the start or end of each thread title, along with the thread no. in a fixed position, for example. So:

1: "SpaceX Boca Chica - Production Updates - MASTER Thread (4)"
2: "SpaceX Starship : Texas Prototype(s) Thread 20 : Discussion"

becomes:

1: "SpaceX Boca Chica : Production Master Thread 4 : UPDATES"
2: "SpaceX Starship : Texas Prototype(s) Thread 20 : DISCUSSION"

or maybe just:

1: "Starship Production Thread 4 : UPDATES"
2: "Starship Prototype Thread 20 : DISCUSSION"

Or something of that sort. Any new "official" threads for other topics (Superheavy?) could then follow a similar convention.
Regardless I do think a large amount of the offtopic posting comes from just how busy this subforum is and how much threads jump around as a result, you shouldn't really have to dig for the correct thread when the thread in question is supposed to be the official discussion page for example. Currently I don't think the pins aren't really being used particularly well - I mean half the pinned threads right now are locked due to being years out of date.

And yeah, as a lurker seeing threads constantly delve into off topic arguments has become very disheartening. Unfortunately as this forum continues to become more and more popular this doesn't seem like something that's going to change any time soon - I can't imagine the traffic when SpaceX eventually get to the point of full production orbital flights. The mods have done a great job keeping the forum relatively under control given the circumstances, but at some point I think some large scale rejuggling of the SpaceX section may need necessary to stop the whole thing spiralling out of the control. Perhaps the Starship sub-section has become so busy it needs to be split into multiple subforums, dare I suggest?

Anyway, back to lurking.  :)

Offline JCopernicus

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You need less backseat moderators.

Offline Alberto-Girardi

Id say no, but with some exceptions. It should by default NOT be restricted, but perhaps with some way to turn on restriction temporarily if mods see its a big problem.

I have accidentally posted in the updates before but I quickly move it over to discussion.

Agree, in caseof trolling should be restricted.
Ad gloriam humanitatis - For the Glory of Humanity
I want to become an Aerospace Engineer!

Offline gnn_spb

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No.
I wonder who and on what basis will restrict access? :)

1. At the first 5 posts of a new user, in the updated thread, show the text with a detailed explanation of why there is no need to write emotions and comments there. As an element of training for beginners.
2. As many have already said, you need to highlight the updated thread in color, in the header or something else. As protection against accidental posting in the wrong place.

Edit: added No.
« Last Edit: 03/30/2021 07:44 pm by gnn_spb »

Offline MichaelBlackbourn

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Personally I think using sticky topics for historical threads of note is a poor use.  The main threads that are currently active should be pinned to the top.  That would probably help stuff getting mixed up in the shuffle. 

Offline capoman

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Possibly the only limitation I can see is  minimum number of posts such as 100 posts or something similar. Many of the people making the mistake are new to the forums and don't fully understand the rules as many other forums do not have these types of posting rules. Veteran posters do occasionally make this mistake also (including myself), but usually remove it as soon as they realize the mistake. It's easy to make this mistake due to the number of threads many of us have open due to the limited scope of threads. But I think a certain amount of experience in the forum is the best way to handle this.

Edit: if a new user does have a useful update, they could always post in the discussion area for a veteran or mod to repost in updates.
« Last Edit: 03/30/2021 08:17 pm by capoman »

Offline _MECO

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As someone who has been lurking this forum for quite a few years now (I don't really have anything interesting to say, so that probably won't change) I do feel like part of the issue comes down to just how crowded this specific sub-section has become over the few years.

There's a ton of threads with extremely similar sounding titles to the point where even I have difficulty keeping track of which thread I'm looking at, everything simply moves too quickly with threads constantly jumping up and down the stack every time you refresh the page. I was going to suggest building some kind of colour coded tagging system to make it easy to see the topic of each thread at a glance (I still think that would be useful) but really a easier solution might be to just use the thread sticky/pinning feature more effectively -

What I mean by that is if the most recent Updates & Discussion threads were pinned to the top of the sub forum then they would be fixed into place on the page, becoming fixed points of reference which users would see as distinct from the regular threads that make up this forum - you could have something like:

1: Starship SN11 Test Launch Campaign - UPDATES
2: SpaceX Boca Chica - Production Updates - MASTER Thread (4)
3: SpaceX Starship : Texas Prototype(s) Thread 20 : Discussion
etc

But I'd also make sure that the threads follow the same naming convections as well. I'd also put UPDATES or DISCUSSION in all caps either at the start or end of each thread title, along with the thread no. in a fixed position, for example. So:

1: "SpaceX Boca Chica - Production Updates - MASTER Thread (4)"
2: "SpaceX Starship : Texas Prototype(s) Thread 20 : Discussion"

becomes:

1: "SpaceX Boca Chica : Production Master Thread 4 : UPDATES"
2: "SpaceX Starship : Texas Prototype(s) Thread 20 : DISCUSSION"

or maybe just:

1: "Starship Production Thread 4 : UPDATES"
2: "Starship Prototype Thread 20 : DISCUSSION"

Or something of that sort. Any new "official" threads for other topics (Superheavy?) could then follow a similar convention.
Regardless I do think a large amount of the offtopic posting comes from just how busy this subforum is and how much threads jump around as a result, you shouldn't really have to dig for the correct thread when the thread in question is supposed to be the official discussion page for example. Currently I don't think the pins aren't really being used particularly well - I mean half the pinned threads right now are locked due to being years out of date.

And yeah, as a lurker seeing threads constantly delve into off topic arguments has become very disheartening. Unfortunately as this forum continues to become more and more popular this doesn't seem like something that's going to change any time soon - I can't imagine the traffic when SpaceX eventually get to the point of full production orbital flights. The mods have done a great job keeping the forum relatively under control given the circumstances, but at some point I think some large scale rejuggling of the SpaceX section may need necessary to stop the whole thing spiralling out of the control. Perhaps the Starship sub-section has become so busy it needs to be split into multiple subforums, dare I suggest?

Anyway, back to lurking.  :)
Can you blame us? It's a popular board. Starship is the first cool rocket since the Saturn V. Of course we need all these similar threads so that discussion doesn't get too crowded. It's like channels on Discord or something. Too many people talking about the same topic all at once to have it all in a dedicated thread. I think the "stay rigidly on topic!" people need to see that, too. Sure there can be huge derailments, but still.

And I agree with you on the old stickied threads. We certainly don't need those around any more.
« Last Edit: 03/30/2021 08:19 pm by _MECO »

Offline abaddon

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I voted "no", but if there is a technological solution to help as others have suggested (e.g. a warning before posting) I think that would be a great idea to try.

For those who say there isn't a problem or the problem is "backseat mods" - I can only vehemently disagree.  There's a real issue here and sticking your head in the sand isn't going to fix anything.  I just don't like the suggested solution and feel it would be worse than the existing problem.

Offline theebag

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Possibly the only limitation I can see is  minimum number of posts such as 100 posts or something similar. Many of the people making the mistake are new to the forums and don't fully understand the rules as many other forums do not have these types of posting rules. Veteran posters do occasionally make this mistake also (including myself), but usually remove it as soon as they realize the mistake. It's easy to make this mistake due to the number of threads many of us have open due to the limited scope of threads. But I think a certain amount of experience in the forum is the best way to handle this.

Edit: if a new user does have a useful update, they could always post in the discussion area for a veteran or mod to repost in updates.

Not sure if a post limit is the way to go. Highly knowledgeable users or actual industry users who don't post often will be left out. In my experience new users will start posting rubish or barely passable posts to reach 100 posts as soon as possible.
« Last Edit: 03/30/2021 08:24 pm by theebag »
Floating around the globe.

Offline abaddon

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No - Absolutely not

If we're going to start gate-keeping here, why not just drop the pretence and make the site read-only except to L2 members and verified aerospace professionals?
No need to be melodramatic; the update threads contain only a fraction of the posts (kinda the point) and discussion threads are open to all, new threads can be created, etc.

I don't want to lock down the update threads either, but commentary like this is inflammatory and unhelpful.

Offline gtae07

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This forum does have the most strict and "precise" (and numerous) rules I have ever seen for a forum.  It's like a condo HOA on steroids.  :)
Indeed... I don't think I've ever seen a forum as relentlessly anal-retentive about "this type of post here, that type of post there, and keep everything strictly on-topic" as this one.  It's part of why I lurked for ten years before making a post.  And to a point I kind of get it--as a nerd and engineer myself, I find myself sometimes trying to make things over-complicated and I'm drawn to systems with lots of complexity--but I think we all need to remember this is a discussion forum, not a design review meeting or flight readiness review.  Discussions among humans tends to wander about, and I often find a lot of value and interesting discussions in "off topic" digressions as long as they're actual discussion and not just bickering. 

If we want to try and keep things "on topic", perhaps there needs to be a little more tolerance for a variety of topics in a given section instead of trying to keep everything that's not "strictly business" in one thread.  Maybe let some of these unwritten "forbidden topics" to have their own threads, and direct people there, if you don't want them clogging up the "special" threads?

Quote
However, when you factor in the plethora of rules in combination of what is likely MANY new members that join specifically out of SpaceX interest...you are going to need more moderation than usual in the SpaceX forums.
Nobody reads the rules.  Not saying it as a complaint; it's a statement of fact.  They're like EULAs, or your car's manual, or the warning labels on household chemicals.  No matter how much you wish they would, they won't.  People are going to come in and post in whatever thread they see something interesting, because that's how forums work.  No need to bite heads off.
It's also quite easy to lose track of what thread you're posting in, especially on a small screen. 

I do like SirBlah's suggestion - simplify discussion vs. update thread titles, and make the update threads stickies. 

Offline woods170

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Voted YES.
The number of concern-trolling m*rons is becoming absolutely horrendous in launch updates threads.No matter how often you tell them NOT to post their idiotic arm-chair 'analyses' in the updates thread, they still do.

It's annoying, it's tiring and worst of all it degrades the quality of this forum.
So, for potentially 'exciting' update threads, such as the launch of Starship prototypes, I would very much like to see a limitation on who can post. Preferably a limitation to NSF staff only.

Offline RonM

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Id say no, but with some exceptions. It should by default NOT be restricted, but perhaps with some way to turn on restriction temporarily if mods see its a big problem.

I have accidentally posted in the updates before but I quickly move it over to discussion.

A warning that you're about to post in an update thread would help. That should stop most people from posting in the wrong thread (it would help me).

Offline AJW

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Before draconian measures that will require moderators to manage who can and can't post updates, see if this board technology allows modifications to the posting page to add a second button.  Another simple step would be to add text around the 'post' button reminding users to double check that they aren't posting a discussion in an update thread by accident.  Is it a band-aid?  Sure, but better a band-aid than a tourniquet. 
We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives.

Offline MySDCUserID

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Voted YES.
The number of concern-trolling m*rons is becoming absolutely horrendous in launch updates threads.No matter how often you tell them NOT to post their idiotic arm-chair 'analyses' in the updates thread, they still do.

It's annoying, it's tiring and worst of all it degrades the quality of this forum.
So, for potentially 'exciting' update threads, such as the launch of Starship prototypes, I would very much like to see a limitation on who can post. Preferably a limitation to NSF staff only.


This is unnecessarily harsh.    I'd imagine the bulk of the missplaced posts in the UPDATES thread are purely by accident.  You're in the thread, you see something new that might be worth commenting on, so you hit that reply button.  It's intuitive to hit that reply button.  You know what's not intuitive?   ...Documenting (either by copy/paste or whatever) what the relevant post was that you want to reply to, then switching to a totally different thread that very likely have an unrelated discussion on-going already, then insert your reference and your comment.   The proactive and non-elitist user-friendly way to fix this is:
1). Warn users when they hit that button that it's for updates only
2). Set up a script as part of that warning that automatically starts a new reply in the discussion thread for the user.  Warning asks if you're sure you want to post in the UPDATES thread.  If user clicks "[My Post Isn't an Update] the script takes them to discussion thread and starts a new comment... possibly with the reference to the UPDATES post already populated.
« Last Edit: 03/30/2021 08:56 pm by MySDCUserID »

Offline Nevyn72

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Another vote for a warning pop-up before posting here, I think most are accidental or truly don't appreciate the error...

Offline JimOnMars

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Yes.

1 - It's nice to have a few threads that are restricted.  Since moderators can (and do) move posts out, why not just set the thread up that way to begin with?  There is no value in posting something to a thread only to have it removed minutes later.  In the meantime, everyone's notifications are spammed for a post that no longer exists.  What is the value in that?

2 - There are thousands of other threads where people can post unrestricted.  I feel like the 'no' responders are acting pretty entitled when they demand unrestricted access to a site that already gives them posting privileges to 99.9% of it. If they really have new info (like found debris or an image different than the dozens already there) they should be able to send it to a mod. No, you don't need to post right this second.  What happens if your post is delayed?  Does the world stop spinning?  What happens if you have to post in the discussion thread?  Does the world stop spinning?

Offline seanpg71

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Voted YES.
The number of concern-trolling m*rons is becoming absolutely horrendous in launch updates threads.No matter how often you tell them NOT to post their idiotic arm-chair 'analyses' in the updates thread, they still do.

It's annoying, it's tiring and worst of all it degrades the quality of this forum.
So, for potentially 'exciting' update threads, such as the launch of Starship prototypes, I would very much like to see a limitation on who can post. Preferably a limitation to NSF staff only.


That's not just an Updates vs Discussion thread issue.  I'd rather those get kicked out of the discussion thread too.  I want to see what SpaceX is actually doing in Texas right now and to a lesser degree some discussion of how and why those things are happening.  I don't care about what people think they should be doing differently or uninformed speculation about what they are doing with each strange unidentified dohicky.

If I could wave a wand an make it happen we'd combine the various production and facilities and launch campaign threads so there aren't a billion places to look, but there'd be
A) A tightly controlled thread with infrequent event and announcement type updates for when something big and new is actually changing or happening that people should subscribe to and would want an email for
B) A combined updates/discussion thread that has all the pictures and tweets and some minor informed discussion and interpretation about the specific contents therein so we don't have to keep cross-referencing threads to figure out what people are talking about in the discussion thread
C) A whining and speculation thread where people can argue about how SpaceX needs to redesign their legs and add more or fewer baffles and what that foundation might be for and why it's being set up wrong.

That sounds even harder to moderate though.  And would be a bit subjective.

Offline AC in NC

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If they really have new info (like found debris or an image different than the dozens already there) they should be able to send it to a mod. No, you don't need to post right this second.  What happens if your post is delayed?  Does the world stop spinning?  What happens if you have to post in the discussion thread?  Does the world stop spinning?

That's ridiculous.  Mods don't have nearly enough time to cover the quantity of updates SpaceX generates and posting it in discussion doesn't help anything.  IIRC, moving posts is actually a non-trivial PITA

Offline DigitalMan

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I vote yes, though, to provide clarity on what people are voting for, please define what an UPDATE is clearly.

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