How Will We Travel on Mars Itself?

[Stan-1967]

You really expect to transport dirty ice mixed with regolith? K. You have to melt it to realistically extract it, to purify it, or to use it eventually. Not sure why you think transport in solid state is an advantage as it makes nearly every step more complicated. Realistically, it ain’t gonna happen. To extract it will involve melting or even vaporizing it, so you might as well keep it liquid (with the heat of friction you’re generating anyway) so it can be used immediately.

Pipelines on Earth are FAR more efficient for transporting liquids than truck.

Oh goodness we are beating an O.T. dead horse!  I grant that moving water from Mars poles to the equator is a job for a pipeline.  But people will not be traveling in the pipeline, they will travel in whatever mode of equipment used to build the pipeline. 

Also, on Mars it would be much more energy efficient to sublimate the ice, and collect it on a cooled surface.  Think of scraping your windshield on a frosty morning.

Melting it will also ionize/dissolve all those nasty perchlorate & sulfate salts into the liquid.  Yuck!

[Robotbeat]

Perchlorates are a potential heat and oxygen source, tho!

[Lampyridae]

You really expect to transport dirty ice mixed with regolith? K. You have to melt it to realistically extract it, to purify it, or to use it eventually. Not sure why you think transport in solid state is an advantage as it makes nearly every step more complicated. Realistically, it ain’t gonna happen. To extract it will involve melting or even vaporizing it, so you might as well keep it liquid (with the heat of friction you’re generating anyway) so it can be used immediately.

Pipelines on Earth are FAR more efficient for transporting liquids than truck.

Oh goodness we are beating an O.T. dead horse!  I grant that moving water from Mars poles to the equator is a job for a pipeline.  But people will not be traveling in the pipeline, they will travel in whatever mode of equipment used to build the pipeline. 

Also, on Mars it would be much more energy efficient to sublimate the ice, and collect it on a cooled surface.  Think of scraping your windshield on a frosty morning.

Melting it will also ionize/dissolve all those nasty perchlorate & sulfate salts into the liquid.  Yuck!

Or with the low atmospheric pressure, you can also just pipe the water as low-pressure steam.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So you have a steampunk Mars colony. Ok, ok, I'll get out!

[Coastal Ron]

Pipelines on Earth are FAR more efficient for transporting liquids than truck.

Of course, just as trains are more efficient than trucks too. But you only build pipelines when you have a large supply of something liquid that is destined for specific point of large demand. That won't happen on Mars for decades, or likely much longer.

So in the beginning, and in the interim, roads will be the method to move everything.

[Robotbeat]

You really expect to transport dirty ice mixed with regolith? K. You have to melt it to realistically extract it, to purify it, or to use it eventually. Not sure why you think transport in solid state is an advantage as it makes nearly every step more complicated. Realistically, it ain’t gonna happen. To extract it will involve melting or even vaporizing it, so you might as well keep it liquid (with the heat of friction you’re generating anyway) so it can be used immediately.

Pipelines on Earth are FAR more efficient for transporting liquids than truck.

Oh goodness we are beating an O.T. dead horse!  I grant that moving water from Mars poles to the equator is a job for a pipeline.  But people will not be traveling in the pipeline, they will travel in whatever mode of equipment used to build the pipeline. 

Also, on Mars it would be much more energy efficient to sublimate the ice, and collect it on a cooled surface.  Think of scraping your windshield on a frosty morning.

Melting it will also ionize/dissolve all those nasty perchlorate & sulfate salts into the liquid.  Yuck!

Or with the low atmospheric pressure, you can also just pipe the water as low-pressure steam.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So you have a steampunk Mars colony. Ok, ok, I'll get out!

Indeed. I was actually thinking about that quite a lot. This might be the best way to transport water on Mars for the earliest missions. Attached is water transport study for NASA’s Machete lander concept basically looking at ISRU for Starship.

I was also looking for the Machete lander cryocooler pallet presentation but I couldn’t find it. Transporting stuff in gaseous form has a lot going for it.

[Robotbeat]

Moving stuff around on trucks has a lot of overhead loading and unloading. A pipe therefore works well over short distances, and for long distances, all-terrain trucks/rovers makes sense as it doesn’t require even a road.

For vapor, your pipe could be just like an aluminum HVAC duct like this, with the pressure only slightly elevated and otherwise operating near ambient Martian conditions.

[crandles57]

Why is the discussion about moving water?

OK if in many years you want ice/water from poles moved to near equator, then I can see the need but I hope it is so far ahead in time that it doesn't need to be designed now. For now find sources of ice near equator?

We want the water to react with CO2 from atmosphere. The atmosphere is available anywhere, so put the methane production plant right next to the water source. (The base next to this if possible.) So is the problem really more about transporting methane to the launch site? Or do we want to produce methane near the launch site so have to transport water there?

Which is easier to transport ice/water or methane?

Further, is the transportation needs more about whether ice/water or methane is easier to transport or more about equipment to install from landing site to the ice source located base?

[Robotbeat]

Equator is easier to get to and launch from (for the same reason as on Earth), it has the least temperature extremes and the best solar resource (smallest seasonal effect, which is maybe the most important part).

There’s not a lot of ice there. But even if you land near ice, it still needs to get from the ice mining location to the ISRU site and then loaded into the vehicle. Some transport is needed.

[spacenut]

While we have moved to moving water.  Not hard in a pipeline with solar panels along it's path to keep it warm.  Then, you can have expansion joints every so often in case of freezing.  Gee wiz.  That is very easy to do.  No need for tanker trucks.  An ice extraction station, warm up to melt, start pumping in pipeline, especially during the day when the pipeline can be warm enough to push water.  Then you can have battery operated heaters at night.  Some type of heat tape wrapped around the pipe.  Industrial sized not like 3/4" pipe at your house. 

Again, I like the idea of a truck train.  Say a modified Tesla tractor trailer truck pulling a train of cars connected together by flex joints to house a work crew exploring, prospecting, etc.  Portable solar panels for charging during the day and travel at night or so on.  Or, travel one day, charge the next. 

[Coastal Ron]

...
Again, I like the idea of a truck train.  Say a modified Tesla tractor trailer truck pulling a train of cars connected together...

Think BIGGER!!

Mars has 1/3rd the gravity of Earth, so build BIGGER vehicles! Bigger wheels too, and they can be like wagon wheels, with the suspension isolating the road from the payload. And if the road is scraped (no need for paving), then there won't be much road vibration anyways with large sized wheels.

[spacenut]

It will all depend on how big a vehicle can be carried in a Starship or use multiple Starships and couple each section together after they are all off loaded. 

[Coastal Ron]

It will all depend on how big a vehicle can be carried in a Starship or use multiple Starships and couple each section together after they are all off loaded.

The components can be shipped to Mars and assembled on site.

EVERY other form of transportation will have the same challenge - how does it get to Mars? Right?

At least with trucks you only need the moving asset, you don't need any infrastructure, and the whole thing can be run on electricity generated on Mars, without the need for consuming gasses.

[DanClemmensen]

It will all depend on how big a vehicle can be carried in a Starship or use multiple Starships and couple each section together after they are all off loaded.

The components can be shipped to Mars and assembled on site.

EVERY other form of transportation will have the same challenge - how does it get to Mars? Right?

At least with trucks you only need the moving asset, you don't need any infrastructure, and the whole thing can be run on electricity generated on Mars, without the need for consuming gasses.

You can build the structural parts and probably the wheels from stainless steel salvaged from the Ship. You will still need payload mass for the battery, solar panels, motors, electronics, and some precision mechanical parts.

[spacenut]

This is why Musk says 1,000's of Starship flights to Mars will be needed to eventually build a self-sustaining colony.  Mars will cease to become a colony when it is truely self-sustaining. 

[Robotbeat]

This is why Musk says 1,000's of Starship flights to Mars will be needed to eventually build a self-sustaining colony.  Mars will cease to become a colony when it is truely self-sustaining.

Well, technically “colony” refers to political status. No country on Earth is fully autarkic (except maybe a few uncontacted tribes). So some trade does not preclude political self-governance.

[Twark_Main]

You really expect to transport dirty ice mixed with regolith? K. You have to melt it to realistically extract it, to purify it, or to use it eventually. Not sure why you think transport in solid state is an advantage as it makes nearly every step more complicated. Realistically, it ain’t gonna happen. To extract it will involve melting or even vaporizing it, so you might as well keep it liquid (with the heat of friction you’re generating anyway) so it can be used immediately.

Pipelines on Earth are FAR more efficient for transporting liquids than truck.

Oh goodness we are beating an O.T. dead horse!  I grant that moving water from Mars poles to the equator is a job for a pipeline.  But people will not be traveling in the pipeline, they will travel in whatever mode of equipment used to build the pipeline. 

Also, on Mars it would be much more energy efficient to sublimate the ice, and collect it on a cooled surface.  Think of scraping your windshield on a frosty morning.

Melting it will also ionize/dissolve all those nasty perchlorate & sulfate salts into the liquid.  Yuck!

This is my general concept.

    1. Cover the surface with a thin membrane, burying the perimeter.

    2. Pull a vacuum (these two steps are already proven with vacuum surcharging on Earth).

    3. The ice underneath sublimates at the lower pressure.

    4. Re-deposit the (now clean) ice in a collection vessel.

    5. Recycle the heat of deposition back under the membrane, so it's used to sublimate more ice. Lots of heat in that phase change!

    6. Optionally you might expose ice by "gardening" with heavy equipment or blasting, make the membrane a solar collector (80% vs 25% efficient), or selectively insulate to reduce heat loss.


Fortunately this is very short range movement of water vapor (as mentioned above), so it does work, but I don't know if it makes sense as a method of bulk water transport much beyond that.  Compared to a conventional water pipe it has extremely low fluid density, which means extremely high pipe mass and pumping power for a given mass flow rate. 

[Coastal Ron]

It will all depend on how big a vehicle can be carried in a Starship or use multiple Starships and couple each section together after they are all off loaded.

The components can be shipped to Mars and assembled on site.

EVERY other form of transportation will have the same challenge - how does it get to Mars? Right?

At least with trucks you only need the moving asset, you don't need any infrastructure, and the whole thing can be run on electricity generated on Mars, without the need for consuming gasses.

You can build the structural parts and probably the wheels from stainless steel salvaged from the Ship. You will still need payload mass for the battery, solar panels, motors, electronics, and some precision mechanical parts.

Sure, given that you have shipped the large tools and fixtures needed to rip apart a ship in a controlled manner.

That won't happen too early in the life of a Mars colony though, since that will require probably thousands of man hours for the disassembly and then assembly of the land vehicles. Putting together stuff that has been built to go together can sometimes take quite a while, whereas building something out of something else will take a LOT of work - and did I mention all the tools and supplies that you would need?

First generation trucks, both short haul and long haul, will be shipped from Earth in pieces and assembly on Mars. You could probably ship a small fleet of them inside of the 400m³ cargo hold of a Starship. And remember with the 1/3rd gravity of Mars you can build them bigger while being lighter in weight. Plus active suspension and slow speeds will allow them to be mass efficient.

[DanClemmensen]

You can build the structural parts and probably the wheels from stainless steel salvaged from the Ship. You will still need payload mass for the battery, solar panels, motors, electronics, and some precision mechanical parts.

Sure, given that you have shipped the large tools and fixtures needed to rip apart a ship in a controlled manner.

That won't happen too early in the life of a Mars colony though, since that will require probably thousands of man hours for the disassembly and then assembly of the land vehicles.

You can cut up a Starship fairly quickly using an oxyacetylene torch. We see this all the time at Starbase. On Mars, a fiber laser cutter of the same power as that torch is a better choice. This is basically a hand tool and could be operated by and Optimus-class robot. You can weld Stainless steel using a fiber laser welder. This is also basically a hand tool. that can be operated by a robot. All the cuts and welds can be planned in advance and prracticed on Earth.

For dissasembly, Start at the top of the landed ship and work your way down, lowering the  pieces with a cable. No individual piece needs to be very large or heavy.

Fiber laser torches and welders consume electricity, not gas, and I think they will work well in the Martian atmosphere of 6 millibar of CO₂.

[Coastal Ron]

You can build the structural parts and probably the wheels from stainless steel salvaged from the Ship. You will still need payload mass for the battery, solar panels, motors, electronics, and some precision mechanical parts.

Sure, given that you have shipped the large tools and fixtures needed to rip apart a ship in a controlled manner.

That won't happen too early in the life of a Mars colony though, since that will require probably thousands of man hours for the disassembly and then assembly of the land vehicles.

You can cut up a Starship fairly quickly using an oxyacetylene torch. We see this all the time at Starbase.

Yes, and they have built up a huge amount of inventory of equipment for doing that. You'd need to take that to Mars first.

On Mars, a fiber laser cutter of the same power as that torch is a better choice. This is basically a hand tool and could be operated by and Optimus-class robot.

Fiber laser cutter & welder, yes, but no to humanoid robots. They are just not there yet.

For dissasembly, Start at the top of the landed ship and work your way down, lowering the  pieces with a cable. No individual piece needs to be very large or heavy.

- How do the humanoid robots charge up while they are up there?

- Are you assuming there will be a large crane?

- And you seem to be assuming that the material for the "truck" is coming from the curved section of the nose, which is half covered in tiles (which have to be removed first). I would think the middle section for the propellant tanks would have the material that would be needed for truck construction.

Fiber laser torches and welders consume electricity, not gas, and I think they will work well in the Martian atmosphere of 6 millibar of CO₂.

Electricity is much better than gas that isn't common with Starship propulsion, but where are you getting the power from? Power will be a scarce resource on Mars for a long time, and will probably be one of the moderators of how quickly colonization can increase.

This is also where colonists (or colony management & planning here on Earth) will have to decide is it better to ship a product to Mars rather than shipping to tools and ability for Martians to build their own from Starship scrap. Early on I don't think there will be enough human labor available for disassembly work, at least for surface transportation needs...

[Robotbeat]

Doesn’t take much energy to cut things into pieces, if you compare it to melting stuff down or synthesizing materials using electrolysis-produced hydrogen or CO.