A bit off-topic, but maybe this is a good time to form commercial deep-space communications companies providing services similar to NASA's DSN. Something will be needed for the many upcoming CLPS missions, and perhaps commercial heliocentric, Mars and asteroid missions some day.
A large, high power relay satellite between Earth and Mars would make that even easier. Then both sides can use smaller dishes to send / receive signals to the relay satellite, and it both relays and boosts the signal both ways. But there's no commercial use case for any of that yet.
Quote from: whitelancer64 on 12/01/2023 10:05 pm A large, high power relay satellite between Earth and Mars would make that even easier. Then both sides can use smaller dishes to send / receive signals to the relay satellite, and it both relays and boosts the signal both ways. But there's no commercial use case for any of that yet. That makes no sense. How is that going to work?
Quote from: Jim on 12/02/2023 12:58 amQuote from: whitelancer64 on 12/01/2023 10:05 pm A large, high power relay satellite between Earth and Mars would make that even easier. Then both sides can use smaller dishes to send / receive signals to the relay satellite, and it both relays and boosts the signal both ways. But there's no commercial use case for any of that yet. That makes no sense. How is that going to work?It made for some great science fiction in the 1940's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_EquilateralEven then, they transmitted direct between LEO and LMO when Mars was closer to Earth than the double hop.
Quote from: Jim on 12/02/2023 12:58 amQuote from: whitelancer64 on 12/01/2023 10:05 pm A large, high power relay satellite between Earth and Mars would make that even easier. Then both sides can use smaller dishes to send / receive signals to the relay satellite, and it both relays and boosts the signal both ways. But there's no commercial use case for any of that yet. That makes no sense. How is that going to work?It's a question of orbital mechanics. Where is your relay going to orbit?You put the big / high power dishes on the relay satellite instead of on the surface of either the Earth or Mars. Then you can have small, lightweight / low power radio antennas on Mars that send a weak signal to the relay satellite. The relay satellite cranks up the signal and blasts it through its big antenna to Earth. The Earth also doesn't need a huge satellite dish to receive this more powerful signal, it can use a modestly sized one. Same process works in reverse to send signals to Mars.
Quote from: Jim on 12/02/2023 12:58 amQuote from: whitelancer64 on 12/01/2023 10:05 pm A large, high power relay satellite between Earth and Mars would make that even easier. Then both sides can use smaller dishes to send / receive signals to the relay satellite, and it both relays and boosts the signal both ways. But there's no commercial use case for any of that yet. That makes no sense. How is that going to work?You put the big / high power dishes on the relay satellite instead of on the surface of either the Earth or Mars. Then you can have small, lightweight / low power radio antennas on Mars that send a weak signal to the relay satellite. The relay satellite cranks up the signal and blasts it through its big antenna to Earth. The Earth also doesn't need a huge satellite dish to receive this more powerful signal, it can use a modestly sized one. Same process works in reverse to send signals to Mars.
Quote from: whitelancer64 on 12/04/2023 05:06 pmQuote from: Jim on 12/02/2023 12:58 amQuote from: whitelancer64 on 12/01/2023 10:05 pm A large, high power relay satellite between Earth and Mars would make that even easier. Then both sides can use smaller dishes to send / receive signals to the relay satellite, and it both relays and boosts the signal both ways. But there's no commercial use case for any of that yet. That makes no sense. How is that going to work?You put the big / high power dishes on the relay satellite instead of on the surface of either the Earth or Mars. Then you can have small, lightweight / low power radio antennas on Mars that send a weak signal to the relay satellite. The relay satellite cranks up the signal and blasts it through its big antenna to Earth. The Earth also doesn't need a huge satellite dish to receive this more powerful signal, it can use a modestly sized one. Same process works in reverse to send signals to Mars. Anything orbiting between Mars and Earth is going to be moving faster than Mars and slower than Earth, therefore the geometry of the three will change as they all make their respective ways around the Sun. This will negate any advantage of having a relay between Mars and Earth..
Quote from: whitelancer64 on 12/04/2023 05:06 pmQuote from: Jim on 12/02/2023 12:58 amQuote from: whitelancer64 on 12/01/2023 10:05 pm A large, high power relay satellite between Earth and Mars would make that even easier. Then both sides can use smaller dishes to send / receive signals to the relay satellite, and it both relays and boosts the signal both ways. But there's no commercial use case for any of that yet. That makes no sense. How is that going to work?You put the big / high power dishes on the relay satellite instead of on the surface of either the Earth or Mars. Then you can have small, lightweight / low power radio antennas on Mars that send a weak signal to the relay satellite. The relay satellite cranks up the signal and blasts it through its big antenna to Earth. The Earth also doesn't need a huge satellite dish to receive this more powerful signal, it can use a modestly sized one. Same process works in reverse to send signals to Mars. Again, no sense. It doesn't help on Mars. The relay will spend a lot of time further way than direct earth - mars. And it can't be controlled where it needs to be. The better solution is like now, Mars orbital relays. Having big antennas on earth is not an issue. Power and cooling is easy to get.
Quote from: darkenfast on 12/04/2023 05:23 pmQuote from: whitelancer64 on 12/04/2023 05:06 pmQuote from: Jim on 12/02/2023 12:58 amQuote from: whitelancer64 on 12/01/2023 10:05 pm A large, high power relay satellite between Earth and Mars would make that even easier. Then both sides can use smaller dishes to send / receive signals to the relay satellite, and it both relays and boosts the signal both ways. But there's no commercial use case for any of that yet. That makes no sense. How is that going to work?You put the big / high power dishes on the relay satellite instead of on the surface of either the Earth or Mars. Then you can have small, lightweight / low power radio antennas on Mars that send a weak signal to the relay satellite. The relay satellite cranks up the signal and blasts it through its big antenna to Earth. The Earth also doesn't need a huge satellite dish to receive this more powerful signal, it can use a modestly sized one. Same process works in reverse to send signals to Mars. Anything orbiting between Mars and Earth is going to be moving faster than Mars and slower than Earth, therefore the geometry of the three will change as they all make their respective ways around the Sun. This will negate any advantage of having a relay between Mars and Earth..Oh. The relay satellite should be at Sun-Mars L4 or L5. I thought that was obvious, that way Mars radio dishes always stay low mass, low power.
Having big antennas on Earth is a problem. They are not viable to operate commercially.
Put another set in Earth orbit.
Quote from: DanClemmensen on 12/04/2023 06:10 pm Put another set in Earth orbit. No, that makes no sense either.
Quote from: whitelancer64 on 12/04/2023 06:10 pmHaving big antennas on Earth is a problem. They are not viable to operate commercially. Huh? and a large relay satellite at Sun-Mars L4 or L5 would be?
Pursuant to Section 5.61(a)(1) of the Federal Communications Commission’s (“FCC” or “Commission”) Rules, the Ronald G. Eaglin Space Science Center (“SSC”) at Morehead State University (“MSU”), provides this narrative statement to justify its request for Special Temporary Authorization (“STA”) to transmit a 250 kHz emission Earth-to-space centered at 2035.594 MHz to support the Intuitive Machines 1 (“IM-1”) mission to place and test the Nova-C lunar lander on the south pole of the Moon.
Quote from: Jim on 12/04/2023 06:36 pmQuote from: whitelancer64 on 12/04/2023 06:10 pmHaving big antennas on Earth is a problem. They are not viable to operate commercially. Huh? and a large relay satellite at Sun-Mars L4 or L5 would be? Might be, if there's enough radio traffic to relay. Say, from a large surface base or two on Mars.
Quote from: Jim on 12/04/2023 06:37 pmQuote from: DanClemmensen on 12/04/2023 06:10 pm Put another set in Earth orbit. No, that makes no sense either. It depends on how well a laser link from Mars can operate through the earth's atmosphere.
Quote from: DanClemmensen on 12/04/2023 06:44 pmQuote from: Jim on 12/04/2023 06:37 pmQuote from: DanClemmensen on 12/04/2023 06:10 pm Put another set in Earth orbit. No, that makes no sense either. It depends on how well a laser link from Mars can operate through the earth's atmosphere.Psyche is 1/2 the minimum distance to Mars and its laser link has been working.
Here is one dish for Lunar support:1661-EX-ST-2023QuotePursuant to Section 5.61(a)(1) of the Federal Communications Commission’s (“FCC” or “Commission”) Rules, the Ronald G. Eaglin Space Science Center (“SSC”) at Morehead State University (“MSU”), provides this narrative statement to justify its request for Special Temporary Authorization (“STA”) to transmit a 250 kHz emission Earth-to-space centered at 2035.594 MHz to support the Intuitive Machines 1 (“IM-1”) mission to place and test the Nova-C lunar lander on the south pole of the Moon.
Oh. The relay satellite should be at Sun-Mars L4 or L5. I thought that was obvious, that way Mars radio dishes always stay low mass, low power.