Author Topic: SpaceX Chopsticks  (Read 16503 times)

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #20 on: 10/15/2022 03:50 pm »

As always, your one liners are wrong.

Already wrong, in this case, as yesterday they had Starship on the chopsticks with men on lifts poking around at the QD.

Wrong again on both points as usually.   "Pad clear" doesn't mean all personnel.   It means all non essential personnel. 
That is basic work knowledge.  It applies to spacecraft fueling, lifts of fueled spacecraft, lifts of large hardware, etc.  BDA clears are usually when going into launch vehicle people propellant loading and that clears all personnel.
Well the pad is cleared even for SpaceX employees as well when the chopsticks is lifting. No humans seen anywhere


What is proof of that?  Camera views are not sufficient to make that call.

Also, SpaceX could be demonstrating that personnel are not required during a chopstick lift and hence it is not a safety call or "pad clear".


« Last Edit: 10/15/2022 03:52 pm by Jim »

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #21 on: 10/15/2022 03:56 pm »

As always, your one liners are wrong.

Already wrong, in this case, as yesterday they had Starship on the chopsticks with men on lifts poking around at the QD.

Wrong again on both points as usually.   "Pad clear" doesn't mean all personnel.   It means all non essential personnel. 
That is basic work knowledge.  It applies to spacecraft fueling, lifts of fueled spacecraft, lifts of large hardware, etc.  BDA clears are usually when going into launch vehicle people propellant loading and that clears all personnel.
Well the pad is cleared even for SpaceX employees as well when the chopsticks is lifting. No humans seen anywhere


What is proof of that?  Camera views are not sufficient to make that call.

Also, SpaceX could be demonstrating that personnel are not required during a chopstick lift and hence it is not a safety call or "pad clear".
So then again, why would they literally allows non essential personnel for B4 & S20 first crane lifts, but not this one?
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Offline Nomadd

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #22 on: 10/15/2022 04:02 pm »
So then again, why would they literally allows non essential personnel for B4 & S20 first crane lifts, but not this one?
Crane lifts aren't experimental.
« Last Edit: 10/15/2022 04:02 pm by Nomadd »
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Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #23 on: 10/15/2022 06:04 pm »
So then again, why would they literally allows non essential personnel for B4 & S20 first crane lifts, but not this one?

What says they were non essential?
« Last Edit: 10/15/2022 06:05 pm by Jim »

Offline meekGee

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #24 on: 10/16/2022 10:03 pm »
Jim - just scroll back to your original post. You said "it will never happen", and you didn't say it in vacuum.  You said it in response to someone asking how long the current practice of "pad clear" will continue.

So no point in re-defining what "pad clear" means in the context of this conversation.

Also - this is such a tiny argument, it's not longer about the original question anyway...
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Offline Nomadd

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #25 on: 10/17/2022 01:17 am »
 When they lowered the ship today they let people drive by but didn't want them stopping. Policy seems to be changing some.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline Hog

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #26 on: 10/17/2022 09:02 pm »
When they lowered the ship today they let people drive by but didn't want them stopping. Policy seems to be changing some.
Nomadd, do you recall any venting prior to the destack?

Does anyone know if facility electricity is used for lifting ops?
Paul

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #27 on: 10/20/2022 07:31 pm »
Jim - just scroll back to your original post. You said "it will never happen", and you didn't say it in vacuum.  You said it in response to someone asking how long the current practice of "pad clear" will continue.

So no point in re-defining what "pad clear" means in the context of this conversation.

Also - this is such a tiny argument, it's not longer about the original question anyway...

where did I say:

"it will never happen"

I said "Anyways will be a requirement." and actually meant "Always will be a requirement"

There is no " re-defining".    Any clears (pad, facility, area, etc) apply to non essential personnel and not all personnel. 

Offline meekGee

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #28 on: 10/21/2022 04:44 pm »
Jim - just scroll back to your original post. You said "it will never happen", and you didn't say it in vacuum.  You said it in response to someone asking how long the current practice of "pad clear" will continue.

So no point in re-defining what "pad clear" means in the context of this conversation.

Also - this is such a tiny argument, it's not longer about the original question anyway...

where did I say:

"it will never happen"

I said "Anyways will be a requirement." and actually meant "Always will be a requirement"

There is no " re-defining".    Any clears (pad, facility, area, etc) apply to non essential personnel and not all personnel.

Yup.  I'm getting to be an old hand here, I can decipher your messages (when there's enough signal)

So yes, The OP was asking about how they were even blocking road traffic for lifts, and announcing a full "pad clear", and how long are they going to continue doing this.  That's a pretty clear question.  So saying "it will always be a requirement" was also pretty unambiguous at the time.  And also not correct, since they're already allowing road traffic, and IMO will continue to relax the requirements since that system can be made safer than a crane lift.

They're probably going to demonstrate that the machine can't do an "uncommanded motion" because of some separate safety mechanism and beyond that it'll always do the same lift between known end-points. 

Right now it's still a novelty, but give it a year and nobody would even notice, especially when there are multiple of them..  It'll be like an aircraft elevator platform on a carrier.  It goes up, it comes back down.
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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #29 on: 12/20/2022 03:02 am »
Retro:  when chopsticks were spikes 

(Martin 262 Convoy Fighter)



Offline BT52

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #30 on: 01/08/2023 10:18 pm »
Wow like fly swatter.  :o very nice

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #31 on: 01/09/2023 12:26 am »

Yup.  I'm getting to be an old hand here, I can decipher your messages (when there's enough signal)

So yes, The OP was asking about how they were even blocking road traffic for lifts, and announcing a full "pad clear", and how long are they going to continue doing this.  That's a pretty clear question.  So saying "it will always be a requirement" was also pretty unambiguous at the time.  And also not correct, since they're already allowing road traffic, and IMO will continue to relax the requirements since that system can be made safer than a crane lift.

They're probably going to demonstrate that the machine can't do an "uncommanded motion" because of some separate safety mechanism and beyond that it'll always do the same lift between known end-points. 

Right now it's still a novelty, but give it a year and nobody would even notice, especially when there are multiple of them..  It'll be like an aircraft elevator platform on a carrier.  It goes up, it comes back down.

Not true at all.  Suspended loads have rules regardless of lifting mechanism.

An aircraft elevator platform on a carrier is not at all a relevant analogy. 
a.  It is a military device.
b.  they don't operate near the public.
c.  there is nothing suspended.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #32 on: 01/09/2023 12:52 am »

Yup.  I'm getting to be an old hand here, I can decipher your messages (when there's enough signal)

So yes, The OP was asking about how they were even blocking road traffic for lifts, and announcing a full "pad clear", and how long are they going to continue doing this.  That's a pretty clear question.  So saying "it will always be a requirement" was also pretty unambiguous at the time.  And also not correct, since they're already allowing road traffic, and IMO will continue to relax the requirements since that system can be made safer than a crane lift.

They're probably going to demonstrate that the machine can't do an "uncommanded motion" because of some separate safety mechanism and beyond that it'll always do the same lift between known end-points. 

Right now it's still a novelty, but give it a year and nobody would even notice, especially when there are multiple of them..  It'll be like an aircraft elevator platform on a carrier.  It goes up, it comes back down.

Not true at all.  Suspended loads have rules regardless of lifting mechanism.

An aircraft elevator platform on a carrier is not at all a relevant analogy. 
a.  It is a military device.
b.  they don't operate near the public.
c.  there is nothing suspended.
The only exception is large theatres for which the aircraft elevator platform traces its roots from.

Offline William497

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #33 on: 09/05/2023 05:29 pm »
Do we know if we have seen the chopsticks move at their full operational speed?
Looking at the speed they move at for booster and ship stacking it doesn't look very fast.
I'm thinking of the booster catching sequence, presumably in the final few seconds they will need to move pretty quick to adjust for booster predicted trajectory.
If there is a video of SpaceX testing this at full speed, I would like to see it.

Offline DanClemmensen

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #34 on: 09/05/2023 05:44 pm »
Do we know if we have seen the chopsticks move at their full operational speed?
Looking at the speed they move at for booster and ship stacking it doesn't look very fast.
I'm thinking of the booster catching sequence, presumably in the final few seconds they will need to move pretty quick to adjust for booster predicted trajectory.
If there is a video of SpaceX testing this at full speed, I would like to see it.
I think it is very unlikely that the chopsticks will move at all, except to close a little. I think most adjustment will be done by the returning SH or SS.

Offline Tangilinear Interjar

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #35 on: 09/05/2023 06:03 pm »
Do we know if we have seen the chopsticks move at their full operational speed?
Looking at the speed they move at for booster and ship stacking it doesn't look very fast.
I'm thinking of the booster catching sequence, presumably in the final few seconds they will need to move pretty quick to adjust for booster predicted trajectory.
If there is a video of SpaceX testing this at full speed, I would like to see it.
I think it is very unlikely that the chopsticks will move at all, except to close a little. I think most adjustment will be done by the returning SH or SS.

The rails that the booster lift pins rest on are hydraulically controlled and will probably act much like a shock absorber.  However I don't think that we have seen them operate yet. I believe there's still some missing actuators and plumbing.

Offline William497

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #36 on: 09/05/2023 06:27 pm »
Do we know if we have seen the chopsticks move at their full operational speed?
Looking at the speed they move at for booster and ship stacking it doesn't look very fast.
I'm thinking of the booster catching sequence, presumably in the final few seconds they will need to move pretty quick to adjust for booster predicted trajectory.
If there is a video of SpaceX testing this at full speed, I would like to see it.
I think it is very unlikely that the chopsticks will move at all, except to close a little. I think most adjustment will be done by the returning SH or SS.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I had assumed the chopsticks would be wide open as the booster returns and would start to close as the booster is still descending through the chopsticks, as well as pivoting both arms to adjust for lateral movement of the booster.
But still, the arms would still need to close a lot faster than I have seen them move on stacking ops, or the booster would have to hover for 10-15seconds.. not ideal.

Offline DanClemmensen

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Re: SpaceX Chopsticks
« Reply #37 on: 09/05/2023 06:36 pm »
Do we know if we have seen the chopsticks move at their full operational speed?
Looking at the speed they move at for booster and ship stacking it doesn't look very fast.
I'm thinking of the booster catching sequence, presumably in the final few seconds they will need to move pretty quick to adjust for booster predicted trajectory.
If there is a video of SpaceX testing this at full speed, I would like to see it.
I think it is very unlikely that the chopsticks will move at all, except to close a little. I think most adjustment will be done by the returning SH or SS.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I had assumed the chopsticks would be wide open as the booster returns and would start to close as the booster is still descending through the chopsticks, as well as pivoting both arms to adjust for lateral movement of the booster.
But still, the arms would still need to close a lot faster than I have seen them move on stacking ops, or the booster would have to hover for 10-15seconds.. not ideal.
Yep, the system as a whole has basically 12 degrees of freedom. (X, Y, Z, pitch, roll, yaw, and velocities in all six of these). The question is: which of these is being managed by Chopsticks movement and which by object (SH or SS) movement. My guess is that it's mostly the object, but this is just a guess.

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