Author Topic: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?  (Read 50698 times)

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #300 on: 08/28/2023 03:50 pm »
An old Microsoft buddy of mine hosted a party at his house a week or so ago, and I got to chat at length with someone who's currently heavily involved with ChatGPT. I shared my idea for building an AI to stabilize a rotating space station, and he agreed with me. "Yeah, that'll almost certainly work."

The idea generalizes to other space applications, so it's worth restating here. The key assumption is that you have software that can model what a system (like a space station) will actually do. That lets you avoid creating the vast amounts of labeled training data that you need to make a large deep-network AI system work.

Then that doesn't seem like it would be an A.I. system as we know it today, like a Machine Learning (ML) recommendation engine or Large Language Model (LLM).

It sounds like you just want a computational engine that will run "what-if" scenarios, which I don't think is what we call "A.I.".

Quote
So imagine that you have a model for a rotating space station that you can run simulations on.

The aerospace industry builds complex software systems today that model complex flight systems, such as spacecraft and aircraft. How is what you are proposing any different?

Quote
This would include various sources of perturbation, such as people moving around, spacecraft docking, etc. It would also include some sort of stabilization method, e.g. cables that move weights around, pipes to move water (or mercury) around, rocket engines to apply thrust, etc.

Not for discussion here, but based on discussions on the rotating space station threads I don't think that the relatively small mass and energy of humans walking around a rotating space station will add up to anything that will require immediate adjustment. In fact I think most of the mass on a rotating space station will be fixed, and mainly the station structure, and the most weight changes will be when cargo is delivered or one or more "lifeboats" eject from the station.

Quote
To train the system, you start without using the equipment and just measure how long it takes the station to become unstable.

A.I. systems need training data to understand what good outcomes are and not-good outcomes are. I'm not sure they would be the best tool for solving this problem, and I think algorithm-based systems we use today for controlling a vast amount of complex systems would be a better tool.

For instance, would you use this approach for controlling an airliner?
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline JulesVerneATV

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #301 on: 08/31/2023 11:13 am »

Online CameronD

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #302 on: 09/03/2023 11:18 pm »
If you have a model that's good enough to train AI you have a model that's good enough to apply undergraduate engineering to.  We know how to solve this problem from first principles.

Speaking of that, it seems many out there who believe AI is the greatest thing since Elon Musk conveniently forget AI's core principle is still, like any other computer system since the dawn of the Information Age, very much "Garbage In, Garbage Out".   So much so, there's an entirely new set of job opportunities opening up out there for those undergraduates you mention:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jodiecook/2023/07/12/ai-prompt-engineers-earn-300k-salaries-heres-how-to-learn-the-skill-for-free/?sh=266e45a39d4a
 
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline grondilu

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #303 on: 09/10/2023 04:04 pm »
Speaking of that, it seems many out there who believe AI is the greatest thing since Elon Musk conveniently forget AI's core principle is still, like any other computer system since the dawn of the Information Age, very much "Garbage In, Garbage Out".   So much so, there's an entirely new set of job opportunities opening up out there for those undergraduates you mention:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jodiecook/2023/07/12/ai-prompt-engineers-earn-300k-salaries-heres-how-to-learn-the-skill-for-free/?sh=266e45a39d4a

Sorry for the low effort post, but this is ridiculous.

PS.  I wrote this because to me it's obvious such a job will not exist very long, as optimizing prompts themselves will soon be done by machines.  And sure enough, I stumbled upon a Deepmind paper that is basically about exactly that, if I understand correctly:

https://arxiv.org/abs/2309.03409
« Last Edit: 09/15/2023 06:27 pm by grondilu »

Offline InterestedEngineer

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #304 on: 09/11/2023 04:30 am »
By 2025, if you aren't using an AI assistant to code, you aren't going to be considered a productive coder anymore.

I already know a couple of shops where this is the case right now.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #305 on: 09/11/2023 05:07 am »
By 2025, if you aren't using an AI assistant to code, you aren't going to be considered a productive coder anymore.

I already know a couple of shops where this is the case right now.

Right, ChatGPT or whatever, are great tools for doing research, but they are more like enhanced search engines than dreaming up coding solutions on their own. Yet another tool coders use to produce code faster than what was possible way back when (i.e. when I learned Fortran and Cobol in college).

Similar tools will likely be used by lawyers and other trades where enhanced search can make a difference.

For me, personally, I still don't see these types of features as making a difference for space applications. Not yet at least...
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline D_Dom

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #306 on: 09/11/2023 08:24 pm »
Interesting talk by Stephen Wolfram:



If you missed this take another look, far from advanced search engine function. This leader in scientific software applications is using AI to make a difference now.
« Last Edit: 09/11/2023 08:28 pm by D_Dom »
Space is not merely a matter of life or death, it is considerably more important than that!

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #307 on: 09/11/2023 09:02 pm »
Interesting talk by Stephen Wolfram:

{video removed}

If you missed this take another look, far from advanced search engine function. This leader in scientific software applications is using AI to make a difference now.

Sure, lots of A.I. advancements as we enter the 3rd wave of A.I.

But how does this specifically apply to space applications?
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline sanman

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #308 on: 11/10/2023 01:45 am »
Sure, lots of A.I. advancements as we enter the 3rd wave of A.I.

But how does this specifically apply to space applications?

Maybe Elon's Guide to the Galaxy will help us to figure out spaceflight problems faster

« Last Edit: 11/11/2023 04:16 am by sanman »

Offline sanman

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #309 on: 11/11/2023 01:13 am »
Also - "Where Are the Aliens?"


Offline sanman

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #310 on: 11/16/2023 04:19 am »
For Musk, it's all about "real world AI" which an go out into the environment and learn from it directly:


Offline sanman

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #311 on: 11/19/2023 08:37 pm »
Anyway, more on topic - I'd like to ask how AI can be used to design better rockets/spacecraft/ground-infrastructure/etc?

I thought I'd specifically ask about Reinforcement Learning, since that seems to be a hot topic these days: How can RL be used to design the best possible launch vehicle?

Imagine our rocket ("agent") is a shapeshifter, and so its "action" is to change its structure/design. The goal is for it to progressively alter itself into a better and better structure/design that maximizes its reward (most payload to LEO at lowest $/kg). Eventually the MDP should reach some idealized structure/design which best meets this goal. Physics simulation would be employed to evaluate the performance of each structure/design iteration in relation to the goal.

Would something like this work? Is anything like this already being used, even if under somewhat different terminology/nomenclature?

Whether designing a launch vehicle or a moonbase, the goal would be to provide the simplest, easiest, most convenient high-level input possible, and get the most useful results in return.
« Last Edit: 11/19/2023 08:53 pm by sanman »

Offline Solarsail

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #312 on: 11/19/2023 10:27 pm »
Anyway, more on topic - I'd like to ask how AI can be used to design better rockets/spacecraft/ground-infrastructure/etc?

I thought I'd specifically ask about Reinforcement Learning, since that seems to be a hot topic these days: How can RL be used to design the best possible launch vehicle?

Imagine our rocket ("agent") is a shapeshifter, and so its "action" is to change its structure/design. The goal is for it to progressively alter itself into a better and better structure/design that maximizes its reward (most payload to LEO at lowest $/kg). Eventually the MDP should reach some idealized structure/design which best meets this goal. Physics simulation would be employed to evaluate the performance of each structure/design iteration in relation to the goal.

Would something like this work? Is anything like this already being used, even if under somewhat different terminology/nomenclature?

Whether designing a launch vehicle or a moonbase, the goal would be to provide the simplest, easiest, most convenient high-level input possible, and get the most useful results in return.

This seems to describe an instance of a general engineering AI.  Sounds harder than getting an AI to plan a bridge, or an electric motor.  I'm not sure anybody's gotten either one of those to work yet.  And yet we have millennia worth of practice designing new bridges for each new gap we want to span.  Off the top of my head I'm not sure if you could reduce an electric motor to a set of scalar inputs and a fitness function.  And then that fitness function sounds nightmarishly difficult.  I imagine you would have to encode a large fraction of the field of industrial engineering into a computer program in order to calculate manufacturing costs.  How would you even encode the amount of manufacturing variation a part will exhibit as a function of the length of a metal pipe?  Even if you can get one program to fiddle with scalar values for the length, diameter and thickness of a pipe piece...  how do you generalize the fluid behaviours inside that pipe to any possible combination?  And then the results of that determine whether the other parts connected to it work at all.  Really, it determines what things are even well plausible to have there.

Likewise, the comment about providing high-level inputs to a program reminds me of Prolog and the 1980s attempt at "fifth-generation programming languages".  Programming by specifying constraints on a problem space.  Nobody's fared very well with that yet.

Offline Twark_Main

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #313 on: 11/19/2023 11:26 pm »
This seems to describe an instance of a general engineering AI.  Sounds harder than getting an AI to plan a bridge, or an electric motor.  I'm not sure anybody's gotten either one of those to work yet.  And yet we have millennia worth of practice designing new bridges for each new gap we want to span.  Off the top of my head I'm not sure if you could reduce an electric motor to a set of scalar inputs and a fitness function.  And then that fitness function sounds nightmarishly difficult.  I imagine you would have to encode a large fraction of the field of industrial engineering into a computer program in order to calculate manufacturing costs.  How would you even encode the amount of manufacturing variation a part will exhibit as a function of the length of a metal pipe?  Even if you can get one program to fiddle with scalar values for the length, diameter and thickness of a pipe piece...  how do you generalize the fluid behaviours inside that pipe to any possible combination?  And then the results of that determine whether the other parts connected to it work at all.  Really, it determines what things are even well plausible to have there.

That was the old way. Software 1.0.

Laboriously tell the computer (in excruciating detail) exactly what you want it to do. "Are the algorithms in the room with us right now?"

In Software 2.0 there's only examples and training compute. Add to a bubbling cauldron and stir.

"AAAAAAHH! It burns!!!!!" ~~ Henry Kissinger

Offline sanman

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #314 on: 11/21/2023 02:13 am »
Reinforcement Learning is Iterative, and so should be naturally compatible with the Iterative Design approach:


Offline sanman

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #315 on: 11/25/2023 02:01 am »
What is Q*  (Q-star) ?

https://www.reuters.com/technology/sam-altmans-ouster-openai-was-precipitated-by-letter-board-about-ai-breakthrough-2023-11-22/

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/23/openai-was-working-on-advanced-model-so-powerful-it-alarmed-staff

Q* can allegedly solve math problems it has never seen before. So it apparently then has some new ability that brings it closer to AGI?

Could it then solve physics problems it has never seen before? Engineering problems too?

EDIT: It seems to do math & physics better than everything else:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2305.20050.pdf

« Last Edit: 11/25/2023 05:01 am by sanman »

Offline sanman

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #316 on: 11/25/2023 05:32 am »

Offline sanman

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #317 on: 11/25/2023 05:10 pm »
This seems to describe an instance of a general engineering AI.  Sounds harder than getting an AI to plan a bridge, or an electric motor.  I'm not sure anybody's gotten either one of those to work yet.  And yet we have millennia worth of practice designing new bridges for each new gap we want to span.  Off the top of my head I'm not sure if you could reduce an electric motor to a set of scalar inputs and a fitness function.  And then that fitness function sounds nightmarishly difficult.  I imagine you would have to encode a large fraction of the field of industrial engineering into a computer program in order to calculate manufacturing costs.  How would you even encode the amount of manufacturing variation a part will exhibit as a function of the length of a metal pipe?  Even if you can get one program to fiddle with scalar values for the length, diameter and thickness of a pipe piece...  how do you generalize the fluid behaviours inside that pipe to any possible combination?  And then the results of that determine whether the other parts connected to it work at all.  Really, it determines what things are even well plausible to have there.

Likewise, the comment about providing high-level inputs to a program reminds me of Prolog and the 1980s attempt at "fifth-generation programming languages".  Programming by specifying constraints on a problem space.  Nobody's fared very well with that yet.


But why can't we have a General Engineering AI? We already have a General Software Engineering AI:



If you can do it with programming, then how much more difficult is it to extend this approach beyond just software engineering to architectural engineering, electronics engineering, automotive engineering, aerospace engineering, etc?

We need to gather up all the CAD files, and train our AI models on them.
We'd preferably want CAD files with as many annotations as possible, to more intimately connect them to Large Language Models which can parse our high-level specifications.
Data is the new oil. Annotated CAD files could be the new RP-1.
« Last Edit: 11/25/2023 05:17 pm by sanman »

Offline sanman

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #318 on: 11/25/2023 05:48 pm »
That was the old way. Software 1.0.

Laboriously tell the computer (in excruciating detail) exactly what you want it to do. "Are the algorithms in the room with us right now?"

In Software 2.0 there's only examples and training compute. Add to a bubbling cauldron and stir.


If Process Supervision is a key enabler to solving math problems, then will it likewise be the key to solving physics problems and engineering problems?


https://openai.com/research/improving-mathematical-reasoning-with-process-supervision

Please note the problem-solving attempts for the math problems at the bottom of the page (Note that they are divided into 3 browsable categories: True Positives, True Negatives, False Positives). Notice the "Chain of Thought" that is comprised of its reasoning steps (shown in green). At the very least, it could be used as an automated tutor to show kids how to solve math problems.

Why couldn't a similar "Chain of Thought" approach be utilized for solving physics problems? Or engineering problems?

ChatGPT -->  MathGPT --> PhysicsGPT --> EngineeringGPT

We're currently entering Step 2 of that progression.
« Last Edit: 11/25/2023 08:03 pm by sanman »

Online Robotbeat

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Re: How Can AI Be Used for Space Applications?
« Reply #319 on: 11/25/2023 07:29 pm »
This seems to describe an instance of a general engineering AI.  Sounds harder than getting an AI to plan a bridge, or an electric motor.  I'm not sure anybody's gotten either one of those to work yet.  And yet we have millennia worth of practice designing new bridges for each new gap we want to span.  Off the top of my head I'm not sure if you could reduce an electric motor to a set of scalar inputs and a fitness function.  And then that fitness function sounds nightmarishly difficult.  I imagine you would have to encode a large fraction of the field of industrial engineering into a computer program in order to calculate manufacturing costs.  How would you even encode the amount of manufacturing variation a part will exhibit as a function of the length of a metal pipe?  Even if you can get one program to fiddle with scalar values for the length, diameter and thickness of a pipe piece...  how do you generalize the fluid behaviours inside that pipe to any possible combination?  And then the results of that determine whether the other parts connected to it work at all.  Really, it determines what things are even well plausible to have there.

Likewise, the comment about providing high-level inputs to a program reminds me of Prolog and the 1980s attempt at "fifth-generation programming languages".  Programming by specifying constraints on a problem space.  Nobody's fared very well with that yet.


But why can't we have a General Engineering AI? We already have a General Software Engineering AI:



If you can do it with programming, then how much more difficult is it to extend this approach beyond just software engineering to architectural engineering, electronics engineering, automotive engineering, aerospace engineering, etc?

We need to gather up all the CAD files, and train our AI models on them.
We'd preferably want CAD files with as many annotations as possible, to more intimately connect them to Large Language Models which can parse our high-level specifications.
Data is the new oil. Annotated CAD files could be the new RP-1.
There's still quite a long way for current generative AI to go.

https://x.com/lefticus/status/1727487575558865004?s=20




Best bet is to probably use the most powerful text-based AI (GPT-4 or whatever) to create code in script-based CAD. I've done a few experiments with OpenSCAD this way with GPT-3.


I tried it and got this:

Quote
Create OpenSCAD code for a basic toy car.

Quote
Sure, here is a simple OpenSCAD code for a basic toy car. This code will create a car with a body and four wheels.

```scad
// Car Body
translate([0, 0, 10])
cube([40, 20, 10]);

// Wheels
cylinder(h=5, r=10);
translate([35, 0, 0])
cylinder(h=5, r=10);
translate([0, 15, 0])
cylinder(h=5, r=10);
translate([35, 15, 0])
cylinder(h=5, r=10);
```

This is a very basic model. You can modify the dimensions and positions to create a more complex model. Remember to install and open OpenSCAD, then paste this code into the editor and press F5 to render the 3D model. Enjoy your 3D modeling! 😊
...valid code, and sort of get that it's supposed to be a car, but...
« Last Edit: 11/25/2023 07:37 pm by Robotbeat »
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