Author Topic: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane(s)  (Read 28686 times)

Offline Asteroza

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SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane(s)
« on: 09/03/2021 12:04 am »
I may be pushing my luck here, but it appears SpaceX may be on its way to owning their own Frankencrane.


https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=54355.msg2284892#msg2284892

https://twitter.com/max9907826460/status/1433001281753337856

Quote
@TeslaratiTeam

Hey, I just saw this on the German Autobahn (A2 near Magdeburg) this morning. It's coming from Austria and might be heading to Hamburg or Rotterdam port.

Looks like a part of a future transport vehicle for getting Starship to the launch pad.

Any other ideas ?


Which NSF photo sleuths appear to have matched to a Liebherr LR 11000 series crane, suggesting it might be a replacement for Frankencrane.


So probably auf wiedersehen to Frankencrane then since it was a rental ("Liebherr, you just got here!")


Do we have a pet name for this new crane yet?
« Last Edit: 07/15/2022 05:07 am by Asteroza »

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From "The Rhetoric of Interstellar Flight", by Paul Gilster, March 10, 2011: We’ll build a future in space one dogged step at a time, and when asked how long humanity will struggle before reaching the stars, we’ll respond, “As long as it takes.”

Offline Nevyn72

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I may be pushing my luck here, but it appears SpaceX may be on its way to owning their own Frankencrane.

I think you'll find that Elon has already confirmed it.  ;)

Quote
Our new crane!

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1433121450446127106

Offline raivo45

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #3 on: 09/03/2021 06:51 am »
Which NSF photo sleuths appear to have matched to a Liebherr LR 11000 series crane, suggesting it might be a replacement for Frankencrane.

Frankencrane is LR 11350. So, this is a replacement for the yellow LR 11000 that's currently being used to lift the GSE tanks/cryo shells and ships/boosters on/off the suborbital pad.

Offline cdebuhr

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #4 on: 09/03/2021 06:02 pm »
Which NSF photo sleuths appear to have matched to a Liebherr LR 11000 series crane, suggesting it might be a replacement for Frankencrane.

Frankencrane is LR 11350. So, this is a replacement for the yellow LR 11000 that's currently being used to lift the GSE tanks/cryo shells and ships/boosters on/off the suborbital pad.
While I haven't reviewed the relative specs exhaustively (and lack the expertise to do so anyway ... not a crane expert!), superficially these seem to be quite similar units, differing somewhat in load capacity but generally supporting similar boom/jib combinations.  I expect the LR11000 is all the crane they anticipate needing.  Does anybody know (and I mean know, not just have a hunch) if the LR11350 was even strictly needed for this job?  ISTM that a company like Fagioli has a finite number of cranes in their inventory, and they'll send the one they've got that can do the job.  Perhaps a similarly configured LR11000 would have been capable of doing everything that's been done so far with the LR11350, but thats not what Fagioli had available at the time.  I'm not saying I believe this to be true ... I actually have no idea.  But can anyone definitively refute this notion?

Offline Hobbes-22

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #5 on: 09/03/2021 06:43 pm »
You'd need to know the load moment (weight * distance to the centerline of the crane) of every load that's been lifted so far to determine that.

Offline geekesq

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #6 on: 09/03/2021 06:58 pm »
So, this is a replacement for the yellow LR 11000 ...
It's not necessarily a replacement for anything.  With the expansion of the facilities we're seeing at Starbase and the high launch cadence SpaceX may be pursuing, they may have decided they needed YAB: yet another BFC (Big "Freaking" Crane).

Maybe we should nickname it "YABbie."

Offline cdebuhr

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #7 on: 09/03/2021 07:06 pm »
You'd need to know the load moment (weight * distance to the centerline of the crane) of every load that's been lifted so far to determine that.
Fair enough, but we can probably safely ignore all the lighter stuff (e.g., construction stairs, bundles of pipe, etc.).  We could probably also get a pretty good idea of load moment by just looking at how much counterweight their using for a given lift.  Getting B4 onto the launch mount seems easily in-bounds for an LR11000, as does stacking S20.  the big lifts so far (unless I'm missing something big - not at all impossible), seem to be the tower segments and the launch table (which was done as a tandem lift).  If anybody with a better feel for the load charts and a reasonable estimate of masses involved want to have a stab at assessing the suitability of an LR11000 for these jobs, I'd be mildly curious to see the verdict.  And yes, I know the load moment is also important, but I'm sure the pixel counters around here can guess how far from crane centre these lifts were done at.

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #8 on: 09/03/2021 07:52 pm »
Another question to ask about the new Crain is where it is intended to be used … Starbase, Florida, etc.

Or will it be started to be used at Stabase, relieving the leased BFCs as the lift capacity of the launch tower comes on line, the moved? Or will clones of it be required for each launch site to support local manufacturing and delivery to operations based around the tower lift system?

No knowledge here, but thinking about building the machines that build the machines.
From "The Rhetoric of Interstellar Flight", by Paul Gilster, March 10, 2011: We’ll build a future in space one dogged step at a time, and when asked how long humanity will struggle before reaching the stars, we’ll respond, “As long as it takes.”

Offline jstrotha0975

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #9 on: 09/03/2021 08:00 pm »
Could this crane be used to build the vertical integration tower at LC-39A or is it overkill?

Offline danneely

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #10 on: 09/03/2021 08:13 pm »
Could this crane be used to build the vertical integration tower at LC-39A or is it overkill?

I suspect if they could've used something smaller in BC they would have; and the 13500 in doubled boom configuration can lift a lot more than any 11000 variant.  Doing it with the lesser model probably would've required lifting in much smaller segments at a time.

Offline RotoSequence

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #11 on: 09/03/2021 08:15 pm »
Could this crane be used to build the vertical integration tower at LC-39A or is it overkill?

I suspect if they could've used something smaller in BC they would have; and the 13500 in doubled boom configuration can lift a lot more than any 11000 variant.  Doing it with the lesser model probably would've required lifting in much smaller segments at a time.

The biggest crane in Boca is an 11350, not a 13000, but I digress. The only reason SpaceX has to buy a Liebherr LR11000 of their own (and we don't even know if they're planning to buy just one) is if they have enough prospective need for heavy lift that they save time and money by owning and operating it themselves.

Offline VaBlue

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #12 on: 09/03/2021 08:18 pm »
Could this crane be used to build the vertical integration tower at LC-39A or is it overkill?

It certainly could be, but I suspect it will be used to relieve one of the existing rentals.  Maybe it will do both?  It doesn't make sense financially to purchase a brand new (multi-million $$$) crane for a few months of work, so I doubt it's just for building a tower at 39A.

Offline AstroDave

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #13 on: 09/03/2021 09:04 pm »
Does anybody know (and I mean know, not just have a hunch) if the LR11350 was even strictly needed for this job? .... Perhaps a similarly configured LR11000 would have been capable of doing everything that's been done so far with the LR11350, but thats not what Fagioli had available at the time.  I'm not saying I believe this to be true ... I actually have no idea.  But can anyone definitively refute this notion?

  This is an interesting question and boils down to whether the 11350 has lifted anything that the 11000 couldn't. A good starting point is to look at the current (tallest) configuration of the 11350 and compare that with a similar config of the 11000 (if possible).

  In the vernacular of Liebherr the current config of the 11350 would be PDW/B2. Unfortunately, the load charts for the 11000 don't have a listing for the B2 counter weight (CW) to reference. This doesn't mean that this type of CW can't be used, only that the general load charts available on their website don't list it. Therefore, let us look at the BW style counter weight, which is the wheeled carriage CW.
  This would put the 11350 in the PDW/BW config and the 11000 in the PDW3/BW config. To my eye the 11350 is set up with a 102m Power Boom, 42m Derrick Mast, and 48m Luffing Jib (boom). The load charts for the 11000 have an exact listing for that same set-up, and looking at a load distance of 28m from center give these results:

LR 11350 - 341 tons
LR 11000 - 226 tons

  Therefore, the smaller crane can deal with about 2/3 of what the larger one can in the "tall" configuration, and any lift that was greater than 226 tons would necessitate the use of the larger crane. Back in May, I made an estimate of the tower section weights and came up with 270 tons on the high end. The sections are probably lighter than my estimate, but this is close enough to maxing out the 11000 that I would say the 11350 was necessary for the job.
  The last sections lifted to the tower were not "full" sections, and therefore much lighter. One could make the argument that the 11000 could have the boom config shortened to deal with the seven full tower sections, and then lengthened to deal with the last two lighter section lifts. This argument assumes that the "full" size tower sections are less than 240 tons.

Offline Kiwi53

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #14 on: 09/03/2021 11:19 pm »
They're going to need a rather large crane to build the new Wide High Bay, too, so I wouldn't be expecting any reduction in the big crane population at Starbase any time soon.

Offline alugobi

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #15 on: 09/04/2021 12:56 am »
I'm skeptical that all the parts will even be shipped and received at BC before they need to start using a crane on the new building.

Online r1279

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #16 on: 09/04/2021 08:36 pm »
There's still the 2nd Boca Chica launch tower, mount, 2nd tank farm, and possibly launch site liquification and gas refining.  Perhaps owning frees them from the scheduling unknowns/increases flexibility without ongoing costs.

Then possibly outfitting the 2 sea launch platforms with tower, mount, and tanks and other infrastructure [propellant generation, generators] (if the shipyard cranes aren't suitable or not available)

Not sure if it would be here for wide bay but other potential buildings include the 70m high payload processing facility and yet another [rumoured] large manufacturing building [height might not be needed, but reach might be useful; or simply more cranes on hand]

And the Florida launch site and any additional Starship maintenance buildings there... anyhow, the point being there could possibly be a couple of years of work here where this crane could be useful.
« Last Edit: 09/05/2021 01:19 am by r1279 »

Offline edzieba

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #17 on: 09/05/2021 11:50 am »
Does anybody know (and I mean know, not just have a hunch) if the LR11350 was even strictly needed for this job? .... Perhaps a similarly configured LR11000 would have been capable of doing everything that's been done so far with the LR11350, but thats not what Fagioli had available at the time.  I'm not saying I believe this to be true ... I actually have no idea.  But can anyone definitively refute this notion?

  This is an interesting question and boils down to whether the 11350 has lifted anything that the 11000 couldn't. A good starting point is to look at the current (tallest) configuration of the 11350 and compare that with a similar config of the 11000 (if possible).

  In the vernacular of Liebherr the current config of the 11350 would be PDW/B2. Unfortunately, the load charts for the 11000 don't have a listing for the B2 counter weight (CW) to reference. This doesn't mean that this type of CW can't be used, only that the general load charts available on their website don't list it. Therefore, let us look at the BW style counter weight, which is the wheeled carriage CW.
  This would put the 11350 in the PDW/BW config and the 11000 in the PDW3/BW config. To my eye the 11350 is set up with a 102m Power Boom, 42m Derrick Mast, and 48m Luffing Jib (boom). The load charts for the 11000 have an exact listing for that same set-up, and looking at a load distance of 28m from center give these results:

LR 11350 - 341 tons
LR 11000 - 226 tons

  Therefore, the smaller crane can deal with about 2/3 of what the larger one can in the "tall" configuration, and any lift that was greater than 226 tons would necessitate the use of the larger crane. Back in May, I made an estimate of the tower section weights and came up with 270 tons on the high end. The sections are probably lighter than my estimate, but this is close enough to maxing out the 11000 that I would say the 11350 was necessary for the job.
  The last sections lifted to the tower were not "full" sections, and therefore much lighter. One could make the argument that the 11000 could have the boom config shortened to deal with the seven full tower sections, and then lengthened to deal with the last two lighter section lifts. This argument assumes that the "full" size tower sections are less than 240 tons.
For future towers at Boca Chica: potentially they could be refined to be lighter and the catch capability omitted, or even the height reduced. Only one catcher can serve multiple launches as long at boosters are not launching simultaneously, and the catch arms could lower a booster onto a waiting SPMT as well as they could onto the nearest launch mount. That allows for a tower that only needs to support the stabiliser and QD arm (and possibly payload/crew access arm). SpaceX hale already demonstrated that stacking with a roller crane is perfectly viable, with loads well within the capacity of the LR11350 used (it was just what was next to the pad at the time, with the LR11000 busy with GSE work). Tim Dodd's video at Starbase already had them mentioning that the launch table was enormously overbuilt and the next one would be significantly slimmed down, so the same may be true for the tower.

Offline Asteroza

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #18 on: 11/01/2021 03:11 am »
Have nicknames for the LR11000 converged yet?

 I've seen twitter mentions of Cranium as a semilogical progression from Frankencrane...

Offline RotoSequence

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Re: SpaceX Liebherr LR 11000 series crane
« Reply #19 on: 11/01/2021 03:44 am »
Have nicknames for the LR11000 converged yet?

 I've seen twitter mentions of Cranium as a semilogical progression from Frankencrane...

I like Onyx (or OnyX), myself.

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