Balooney, there’s no need for a radical design for making an upper stage of a multistage rocket reusable.
Quote from: john smith 19 on 09/16/2022 07:03 amQuote from: Robert_the_Doll on 09/15/2022 03:30 amSingle-stage Earth-orbital Reusable Vehicle (SERV) and its Manned Upper-stage Reusable Payload (MURP) spaceplane was designed in 1969-1971 as one of the many proposed Space Shuttle designs.BTW SERV was an unsolicited entry to the STS competition (because y'know Chrysler, what do they know about building aircraft?) I don't think that is quite correct. The Marshall Space Flight Center (MSFC) issued Alternate Space Shuttle Concepts (ASSC) studies to Chrysler, Lockheed and Grumman/Boeing. The ASSC was initiated on 6 July 1970. Chrysler's space launch experience came building the Saturn I and Saturn IB first stages for MSFC who did the actual design. Chrysler developed SERV (Single Stage Earth Orbital Reusable Vehicle).See Dennis R. Jenkins excellent book "Space Shuttle: The History of Developing the National Space Transportation System; The Beginning Through STS-50" pages 85 to 87.
Quote from: Robert_the_Doll on 09/15/2022 03:30 amSingle-stage Earth-orbital Reusable Vehicle (SERV) and its Manned Upper-stage Reusable Payload (MURP) spaceplane was designed in 1969-1971 as one of the many proposed Space Shuttle designs.BTW SERV was an unsolicited entry to the STS competition (because y'know Chrysler, what do they know about building aircraft?)
Single-stage Earth-orbital Reusable Vehicle (SERV) and its Manned Upper-stage Reusable Payload (MURP) spaceplane was designed in 1969-1971 as one of the many proposed Space Shuttle designs.
Yup.Stoke is really putting these SSTO concepts to the test....And by putting it on top of a reusable first stage, they'll be basically guaranteed to have enough performance to reach orbit...
Quote from: Robotbeat on 09/15/2022 01:28 amYup.Stoke is really putting these SSTO concepts to the test....And by putting it on top of a reusable first stage, they'll be basically guaranteed to have enough performance to reach orbit... This is why I find theme one of the most interesting space launch teams at the moment. They are not yet another SpaceX clone.
Quote from: Elmar Moelzer on 09/16/2022 09:10 pmQuote from: Robotbeat on 09/15/2022 01:28 amYup.Stoke is really putting these SSTO concepts to the test....And by putting it on top of a reusable first stage, they'll be basically guaranteed to have enough performance to reach orbit... This is why I find theme one of the most interesting space launch teams at the moment. They are not yet another SpaceX clone....except for the first stage kinda.
But for a reusable first stage, are there really other good options but to do more or less do what SpaceX does? New Glenn has fins instead of grid fins for example but other than small things like that, I'm not sure what you could radically change and still have a good design.I'd like to hear about other ideas though if there are some good ones.
I think people get pretty enamored by aerospikes. There’s little advantage over just a high chamber pressure, and basically no real advantage for an upper stage. At the expense of low thrust to weight ratio. The reentry method playing well with the aero spike concept is clever, but I’m not sure it’s really so much better than a conventional approach.
People also get too enamored with hydrogen. Besides the handling difficulties, the dry mass of the tanks and the pumps just is much worse for hydrolox than other fuels, largely negating the Isp advantage (especially if you use it fuel rich on both first and second stages).
I worry a little that it suffers from the too-clever-by-half, novelty for novelty’s sake approach to RLVs, part of what killed X-33 so completely (and which likely would’ve kept it from even achieving F9’s cost per kg even if they had managed to get VentureStar to orbit). (And Starship isn’t completely immune to this, honestly… we’ll see if the chopsticks end up working well for them or not.)But making it two stages means they can do several things suboptimally and still achieve orbit.
Quote from: Robotbeat on 09/14/2022 08:23 pmI think people get pretty enamored by aerospikes. There’s little advantage over just a high chamber pressure, and basically no real advantage for an upper stage. At the expense of low thrust to weight ratio. The reentry method playing well with the aero spike concept is clever, but I’m not sure it’s really so much better than a conventional approach.You seem to forget that while this is an upper stage engine, they also want to land propulsively using this engine on the stage's return to Earth. That means that the engine does have to fire both in a vacuum and at sea level (if only briefly), which means the traditional massive upper stage bell nozzle wasn't ever even an option. It was either an aerospike, a reversible extending nozzle, or something crazier like a TAN. With that in mind, and then adding in the aerospike's dual use as a heat shield, I think the aerospike was clearly the best option.Quote from: Robotbeat on 09/14/2022 08:23 pmPeople also get too enamored with hydrogen. Besides the handling difficulties, the dry mass of the tanks and the pumps just is much worse for hydrolox than other fuels, largely negating the Isp advantage (especially if you use it fuel rich on both first and second stages).I have no particular evidence for this, but I suspect that in this case they picked liquid hydrogen not for it's performance as a propellant, but for it's performance as a coolant.Quote from: Robotbeat on 09/14/2022 08:23 pmI worry a little that it suffers from the too-clever-by-half, novelty for novelty’s sake approach to RLVs, part of what killed X-33 so completely (and which likely would’ve kept it from even achieving F9’s cost per kg even if they had managed to get VentureStar to orbit). (And Starship isn’t completely immune to this, honestly… we’ll see if the chopsticks end up working well for them or not.)But making it two stages means they can do several things suboptimally and still achieve orbit.There are two reasons I don't worry about this design being too clever. The first is, well, look at their progress! If they had made a design that was more clever than needed, and that was slowing them down, I seriously doubt they would have gone from their first seed funding round to firing the complete (maybe?) upper stage engine assembly in a year and a half. Honestly at this rate, I expect starting on the first stage to be the thing which slows them up, and that's the part that's reasonably tried and tested.The other thing is, I can't actually come up with a way to make a reusable TSTO vehicle that is simpler than this. It's like Starship, but without the need for a carefully controlled reentry, or hundreds of tiles, or aerodynamic surfaces, or aerial maneuvers, etc. In trade for not having to deal with all that, all Stoke has to do is actively cool a heatshield.
Can't find any info on booster but it is using methane. To speed things up could buy the engines. NB Usra are developing a 200klbs engine but don't say who its for. For RLVs buying engines may make more sense especially if they are good for 10-20 flights. After which could be sent back to manufacturer for refurbishment.
Quote from: JEF_300 on 09/17/2022 06:28 pmQuote from: Robotbeat on 09/14/2022 08:23 pmI think people get pretty enamored by aerospikes. There’s little advantage over just a high chamber pressure, and basically no real advantage for an upper stage. At the expense of low thrust to weight ratio. The reentry method playing well with the aero spike concept is clever, but I’m not sure it’s really so much better than a conventional approach.You seem to forget that while this is an upper stage engine, they also want to land propulsively using this engine on the stage's return to Earth. That means that the engine does have to fire both in a vacuum and at sea level (if only briefly), which means the traditional massive upper stage bell nozzle wasn't ever even an option. It was either an aerospike, a reversible extending nozzle, or something crazier like a TAN. With that in mind, and then adding in the aerospike's dual use as a heat shield, I think the aerospike was clearly the best option.Quote from: Robotbeat on 09/14/2022 08:23 pmPeople also get too enamored with hydrogen. Besides the handling difficulties, the dry mass of the tanks and the pumps just is much worse for hydrolox than other fuels, largely negating the Isp advantage (especially if you use it fuel rich on both first and second stages).I have no particular evidence for this, but I suspect that in this case they picked liquid hydrogen not for it's performance as a propellant, but for it's performance as a coolant.Quote from: Robotbeat on 09/14/2022 08:23 pmI worry a little that it suffers from the too-clever-by-half, novelty for novelty’s sake approach to RLVs, part of what killed X-33 so completely (and which likely would’ve kept it from even achieving F9’s cost per kg even if they had managed to get VentureStar to orbit). (And Starship isn’t completely immune to this, honestly… we’ll see if the chopsticks end up working well for them or not.)But making it two stages means they can do several things suboptimally and still achieve orbit.There are two reasons I don't worry about this design being too clever. The first is, well, look at their progress! If they had made a design that was more clever than needed, and that was slowing them down, I seriously doubt they would have gone from their first seed funding round to firing the complete (maybe?) upper stage engine assembly in a year and a half. Honestly at this rate, I expect starting on the first stage to be the thing which slows them up, and that's the part that's reasonably tried and tested.The other thing is, I can't actually come up with a way to make a reusable TSTO vehicle that is simpler than this. It's like Starship, but without the need for a carefully controlled reentry, or hundreds of tiles, or aerodynamic surfaces, or aerial maneuvers, etc. In trade for not having to deal with all that, all Stoke has to do is actively cool a heatshield.You could do all that without really weird, heavy rocket engines.Using hydrogen for cooling isn't ever as effective as just using water. Water has like 4 times the mass-specific heat of vaporization of hydrogen, not to mention like 20-40 times the volume-specific heat of vaporization, and this advantage isn't fully undone by the low boiling temperature of hydrogen. Plus, water doesn't burn like hydrogen does. And is cheaper and doesn't have the extreme temperature changes of hydrogen.Water-cooled active shield would be superior in /nearly/ every way.
Quote from: Robotbeat on 09/18/2022 01:45 amQuote from: JEF_300 on 09/17/2022 06:28 pmQuote from: Robotbeat on 09/14/2022 08:23 pmI think people get pretty enamored by aerospikes. There’s little advantage over just a high chamber pressure, and basically no real advantage for an upper stage. At the expense of low thrust to weight ratio. The reentry method playing well with the aero spike concept is clever, but I’m not sure it’s really so much better than a conventional approach.You seem to forget that while this is an upper stage engine, they also want to land propulsively using this engine on the stage's return to Earth. That means that the engine does have to fire both in a vacuum and at sea level (if only briefly), which means the traditional massive upper stage bell nozzle wasn't ever even an option. It was either an aerospike, a reversible extending nozzle, or something crazier like a TAN. With that in mind, and then adding in the aerospike's dual use as a heat shield, I think the aerospike was clearly the best option.Quote from: Robotbeat on 09/14/2022 08:23 pmPeople also get too enamored with hydrogen. Besides the handling difficulties, the dry mass of the tanks and the pumps just is much worse for hydrolox than other fuels, largely negating the Isp advantage (especially if you use it fuel rich on both first and second stages).I have no particular evidence for this, but I suspect that in this case they picked liquid hydrogen not for it's performance as a propellant, but for it's performance as a coolant.Quote from: Robotbeat on 09/14/2022 08:23 pmI worry a little that it suffers from the too-clever-by-half, novelty for novelty’s sake approach to RLVs, part of what killed X-33 so completely (and which likely would’ve kept it from even achieving F9’s cost per kg even if they had managed to get VentureStar to orbit). (And Starship isn’t completely immune to this, honestly… we’ll see if the chopsticks end up working well for them or not.)But making it two stages means they can do several things suboptimally and still achieve orbit.There are two reasons I don't worry about this design being too clever. The first is, well, look at their progress! If they had made a design that was more clever than needed, and that was slowing them down, I seriously doubt they would have gone from their first seed funding round to firing the complete (maybe?) upper stage engine assembly in a year and a half. Honestly at this rate, I expect starting on the first stage to be the thing which slows them up, and that's the part that's reasonably tried and tested.The other thing is, I can't actually come up with a way to make a reusable TSTO vehicle that is simpler than this. It's like Starship, but without the need for a carefully controlled reentry, or hundreds of tiles, or aerodynamic surfaces, or aerial maneuvers, etc. In trade for not having to deal with all that, all Stoke has to do is actively cool a heatshield.You could do all that without really weird, heavy rocket engines.Using hydrogen for cooling isn't ever as effective as just using water. Water has like 4 times the mass-specific heat of vaporization of hydrogen, not to mention like 20-40 times the volume-specific heat of vaporization, and this advantage isn't fully undone by the low boiling temperature of hydrogen. Plus, water doesn't burn like hydrogen does. And is cheaper and doesn't have the extreme temperature changes of hydrogen.Water-cooled active shield would be superior in /nearly/ every way.But water is just dead mass, hydrogen gets used later for propellant: dual purpose.Unless you run the math and it actually works out that water (or something else) is actually more mass efficient even if it's dead mass.
Quote from: chopsticks on 09/18/2022 03:47 amQuote from: Robotbeat on 09/18/2022 01:45 amQuote from: JEF_300 on 09/17/2022 06:28 pmQuote from: Robotbeat on 09/14/2022 08:23 pmI think people get pretty enamored by aerospikes. There’s little advantage over just a high chamber pressure, and basically no real advantage for an upper stage. At the expense of low thrust to weight ratio. The reentry method playing well with the aero spike concept is clever, but I’m not sure it’s really so much better than a conventional approach.You seem to forget that while this is an upper stage engine, they also want to land propulsively using this engine on the stage's return to Earth. That means that the engine does have to fire both in a vacuum and at sea level (if only briefly), which means the traditional massive upper stage bell nozzle wasn't ever even an option. It was either an aerospike, a reversible extending nozzle, or something crazier like a TAN. With that in mind, and then adding in the aerospike's dual use as a heat shield, I think the aerospike was clearly the best option.Quote from: Robotbeat on 09/14/2022 08:23 pmPeople also get too enamored with hydrogen. Besides the handling difficulties, the dry mass of the tanks and the pumps just is much worse for hydrolox than other fuels, largely negating the Isp advantage (especially if you use it fuel rich on both first and second stages).I have no particular evidence for this, but I suspect that in this case they picked liquid hydrogen not for it's performance as a propellant, but for it's performance as a coolant.Quote from: Robotbeat on 09/14/2022 08:23 pmI worry a little that it suffers from the too-clever-by-half, novelty for novelty’s sake approach to RLVs, part of what killed X-33 so completely (and which likely would’ve kept it from even achieving F9’s cost per kg even if they had managed to get VentureStar to orbit). (And Starship isn’t completely immune to this, honestly… we’ll see if the chopsticks end up working well for them or not.)But making it two stages means they can do several things suboptimally and still achieve orbit.There are two reasons I don't worry about this design being too clever. The first is, well, look at their progress! If they had made a design that was more clever than needed, and that was slowing them down, I seriously doubt they would have gone from their first seed funding round to firing the complete (maybe?) upper stage engine assembly in a year and a half. Honestly at this rate, I expect starting on the first stage to be the thing which slows them up, and that's the part that's reasonably tried and tested.The other thing is, I can't actually come up with a way to make a reusable TSTO vehicle that is simpler than this. It's like Starship, but without the need for a carefully controlled reentry, or hundreds of tiles, or aerodynamic surfaces, or aerial maneuvers, etc. In trade for not having to deal with all that, all Stoke has to do is actively cool a heatshield.You could do all that without really weird, heavy rocket engines.Using hydrogen for cooling isn't ever as effective as just using water. Water has like 4 times the mass-specific heat of vaporization of hydrogen, not to mention like 20-40 times the volume-specific heat of vaporization, and this advantage isn't fully undone by the low boiling temperature of hydrogen. Plus, water doesn't burn like hydrogen does. And is cheaper and doesn't have the extreme temperature changes of hydrogen.Water-cooled active shield would be superior in /nearly/ every way.But water is just dead mass, hydrogen gets used later for propellant: dual purpose.Unless you run the math and it actually works out that water (or something else) is actually more mass efficient even if it's dead mass.Hydrogen that absorbs heat boils off and is lost, just like the water. You can't use it as propellant later on because it'll be gone.
Quote from: Robotbeat on 09/18/2022 04:19 amQuote from: chopsticks on 09/18/2022 03:47 amQuote from: Robotbeat on 09/18/2022 01:45 amQuote from: JEF_300 on 09/17/2022 06:28 pmQuote from: Robotbeat on 09/14/2022 08:23 pmI think people get pretty enamored by aerospikes. There’s little advantage over just a high chamber pressure, and basically no real advantage for an upper stage. At the expense of low thrust to weight ratio. The reentry method playing well with the aero spike concept is clever, but I’m not sure it’s really so much better than a conventional approach.You seem to forget that while this is an upper stage engine, they also want to land propulsively using this engine on the stage's return to Earth. That means that the engine does have to fire both in a vacuum and at sea level (if only briefly), which means the traditional massive upper stage bell nozzle wasn't ever even an option. It was either an aerospike, a reversible extending nozzle, or something crazier like a TAN. With that in mind, and then adding in the aerospike's dual use as a heat shield, I think the aerospike was clearly the best option.Quote from: Robotbeat on 09/14/2022 08:23 pmPeople also get too enamored with hydrogen. Besides the handling difficulties, the dry mass of the tanks and the pumps just is much worse for hydrolox than other fuels, largely negating the Isp advantage (especially if you use it fuel rich on both first and second stages).I have no particular evidence for this, but I suspect that in this case they picked liquid hydrogen not for it's performance as a propellant, but for it's performance as a coolant.Quote from: Robotbeat on 09/14/2022 08:23 pmI worry a little that it suffers from the too-clever-by-half, novelty for novelty’s sake approach to RLVs, part of what killed X-33 so completely (and which likely would’ve kept it from even achieving F9’s cost per kg even if they had managed to get VentureStar to orbit). (And Starship isn’t completely immune to this, honestly… we’ll see if the chopsticks end up working well for them or not.)But making it two stages means they can do several things suboptimally and still achieve orbit.There are two reasons I don't worry about this design being too clever. The first is, well, look at their progress! If they had made a design that was more clever than needed, and that was slowing them down, I seriously doubt they would have gone from their first seed funding round to firing the complete (maybe?) upper stage engine assembly in a year and a half. Honestly at this rate, I expect starting on the first stage to be the thing which slows them up, and that's the part that's reasonably tried and tested.The other thing is, I can't actually come up with a way to make a reusable TSTO vehicle that is simpler than this. It's like Starship, but without the need for a carefully controlled reentry, or hundreds of tiles, or aerodynamic surfaces, or aerial maneuvers, etc. In trade for not having to deal with all that, all Stoke has to do is actively cool a heatshield.You could do all that without really weird, heavy rocket engines.Using hydrogen for cooling isn't ever as effective as just using water. Water has like 4 times the mass-specific heat of vaporization of hydrogen, not to mention like 20-40 times the volume-specific heat of vaporization, and this advantage isn't fully undone by the low boiling temperature of hydrogen. Plus, water doesn't burn like hydrogen does. And is cheaper and doesn't have the extreme temperature changes of hydrogen.Water-cooled active shield would be superior in /nearly/ every way.But water is just dead mass, hydrogen gets used later for propellant: dual purpose.Unless you run the math and it actually works out that water (or something else) is actually more mass efficient even if it's dead mass.Hydrogen that absorbs heat boils off and is lost, just like the water. You can't use it as propellant later on because it'll be gone.Are you referring to transpiration cooling? I was thinking of a closed loop system with cooling channels (like regenerative cooling in an engine bell) where the hydrogen would recondensed/cooled, or perhaps stored as a supercritical fluid. Whichever would be best I guess. But maybe this isn't a viable solution.I suppose if it isn't, transpiration cooling with water might be a good alternative to ablative heat shield (better for reusability of course), but would sort of act the same way.
You could do all that without really weird, heavy rocket engines.
Using hydrogen for cooling isn't ever as effective as just using water. Water has like 4 times the mass-specific heat of vaporization of hydrogen, not to mention like 20-40 times the volume-specific heat of vaporization, and this advantage isn't fully undone by the low boiling temperature of hydrogen. Plus, water doesn't burn like hydrogen does. And is cheaper and doesn't have the extreme temperature changes of hydrogen.Water-cooled active shield would be superior in /nearly/ every way.