Poll

Of the private lots remaining in the Starship Assembly Area, which will be the last – or within the last group – to sell to SpaceX?

173660
3 (7.1%)
173661
1 (2.4%)
173662
0 (0%)
173667
1 (2.4%)
173666
2 (4.8%)
173658
7 (16.7%)
173652
2 (4.8%)
173648
4 (9.5%)
173713
3 (7.1%)
173714
2 (4.8%)
173719
4 (9.5%)
173720
3 (7.1%)
173722
3 (7.1%)
173727
1 (2.4%)
173728
0 (0%)
173730
6 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 42

Voting closed: 06/29/2020 07:31 pm


Author Topic: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition  (Read 840064 times)

Offline Semmel

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #40 on: 09/25/2019 06:23 am »
And, by the way, the company still refuses any communications with the residents. For three years now, they've refused to talk to anybody about anything. Since the meeting where they promised to be the best neighbors in the world and keep everyone constantly updated and work to solve any issues that arose.

This really gripes with me somehow. SpaceX to me is such a shining symbol for a techie future, but they behave as big-bad-coorp towards locals. Why this dystopia tint on an otherwise utopian company? I dont get it. Its such a small thing to get right, there is no reason for it. I dont want to sound loom and groom, in the grand scheme of things, this is just a small hiccup (sorry Nomadd), but its an avoidable one at no cost to SpaceX with only benefits if done right. Maybe a question to Elon Musk when he is there is all it takes to remedy that situation.

Online woods170

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #41 on: 09/25/2019 06:44 am »
So sorry to hear about that, Nomadd. It breaks my heart that this is how SpaceX treats its neighbors. It wouldn’t cost them much to show far more respect.  :-\

It's not "SpaceX" making the offer. It'll be suits hired by them to buy up land from people who likely knew this was coming years ago. They will start with the low offer and see who bites. SpaceX will have given a dollar amount they want to spend on the entire area and these suits will be trying to get everyone out for the lowest amount to make money themselves, not SpaceX.

Nomadd's offer will be null and void as it would have been under NDA, but when Facebook Maria leaked the actual letter to Business Insider that's when things will have gone south as we saw with Elon reneging on meeting/inviting locals to the event at the weekend.

But spare us all the 'SpaceX treating neighbors badly'. It's business and it'll be for the community there to hold their ground and wait for better offers.

Full disclosure, I work in real estate. This isn't anything special,, this is standard.

Although I don't agree with how the real estate industry operates I can confirm that the picture painted by Paul is accurate. I have family working in the real estate business and what they tell me is a carbon copy of what Paul mentioned here.

Online woods170

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #42 on: 09/25/2019 07:01 am »
Maybe my property is worth more to me (a lot more, apparently) than it is to the business suits in Houston -- I'm ok with that.  But forcing me to sell?  That scares the piss out of me.

SpaceX is not forcing the locals to sell their homes. Have you bothered to read the letter the Boca Chica residents received? It was leaked to BusinessInsider.

The content of the letter is plain and simple: SpaceX offers a buyout. That's it.
Nowhere in the contents of the letter is any reference to a forced sale. None.

Offline Syrinx

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #43 on: 09/25/2019 07:25 am »
I don't know how to respond without sounding like a jerk.

I am a Boca Chica resident.  To be fair, I haven't read the leak or anything at all on Business Insider.

Offline CapitalistOppressor

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #44 on: 09/25/2019 12:54 pm »
I guess posting actual numbers is considered impolite or bad or something, but the biggest middle finger I've ever gotten in my life seems like it should go on record for entertainment value.
 SpaceX has decided that my 3 bedroom, 2 bath brick house that has all new plumbing and electrical, every square inch restored, new double pane coastal rated tempered glass windows, new 230 foot cedar, hurricane code fence and a hundred other improvements totaling around 40 grand in the last four years, has a market value of $46,900, as far as I can tell, based on tax records and one fuzzy aerial photo.
 Combined with the two week deadline, the real point of these offers is getting pretty obvious.

 My apology to my neighbors for thinking they were getting a little dramatic. I didn't see the offer until tonight.

If the local entity that originally worked with SpaceX was already granted condemnation powers when they were formed (as described in the OP) then I would speculate that the offer you received is probably a part of the process that was already agreed would be used when they first set this up years ago.

By offering triple what their assessor estimated they make it very difficult for you to litigate this because it’s nearly certain that their offer is higher than what you could win in court, which would also leave you on the hook for attorney fees and court costs for the whole proceeding (though as I stated you really should talk to an attorney about this).

Your best bet might be to use your platform to promote a sympathetic narrative in the media, but I think some of your neighbors who are hoping for million dollar paydays should be more realistic about what can be achieved.

Offline Wargrim

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #45 on: 09/25/2019 01:08 pm »
Moved from the eminent domain thread:

And, by the way, the company still refuses any communications with the residents. For three years now, they've refused to talk to anybody about anything. Since the meeting where they promised to be the best neighbors in the world and keep everyone constantly updated and work to solve any issues that arose.

This is a dead giveaway they simply do not care. The very basic of being a good neighbour is to simply talk. It is not like Elon would have to visit and talk to all residents, he is super busy of course, but SpaceX has thousands of employees. It is a complete non-issue to have one employee whose part-time job it is to handle communication with Boca Chica residents.

Being a good neighbour never was on their radar. Once they figured out that the village would be within the larger potential danger zones, they started to think more seriously about buyout, but still unwilling to commit to reasonable numbers.

I am ok with SpaceX being super price concious internally and towards supplies/contractors. Applying the same maximum haggle mentality towards people who have lived there long before SpaceX moved in is NOT ok.

Note that for the upcoming presentation, they had all the chance in the world to invite every Boca Chica resident, no matter if supporter, sceptic or vocal opponent. Instead, what Elon said was that he would invite supporters - and if those were residents, that was more a coincidence. Definitely not a sign of good neighbourhood, it is more a typical PR event. Which, again, would be totally ok if not for the fact that they never met with or talked to residents, as Nomadd has pointed out.

SpaceX and Tesla have the same communication problem - if you are on Elon's Twitter contact list and an issue reaches him and he cares, things happen fast. But if not, you face the same faceless uncaring bureocratic mechanisms as in any big company or agency. "If only the Tzar knew!" Very unhealthy for both companies in the long run.

I admire what SpaceX is achieving, but this episode is not being handled well. I hope that they will not sink to the lows of really going for the eminent domain option or such.

It boils down to this:
You can not build the future of mankind by collaterally trampling down on people's lives who never had a say in if they want to deal with you.

Offline Wargrim

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #46 on: 09/25/2019 01:18 pm »
And, by the way, the company still refuses any communications with the residents. For three years now, they've refused to talk to anybody about anything. Since the meeting where they promised to be the best neighbors in the world and keep everyone constantly updated and work to solve any issues that arose.

This is a dead giveaway they simply do not care. The very basic of being a good neighbour is to simply talk. It is not like Elon would have to visit and talk to all residents, he is super busy of course, but SpaceX has thousands of employees. It is a complete non-issue to have one employee whose part-time job it is to handle communication with Boca Chica residents.

What do you expect them to say? I see no scenario that them being chatty would end well for them, especially with media and lawyers involved. You mentioned Tesla's communication issue, I assume you're (partially) referring to the customers/fans who already bought Model 3 demanding payback after Tesla cut prices. Yes they made enough noise to get Elon involved and "solved" the problem, but the cost is Tesla had to pay real money when they're starved for cash. The same is likely true for SpaceX here, they're running this project on a very tight budget, my guess is the build site's annual budget is about $30M, if they gave each 10 home owner $1M that's 30% of their annual budget gone.

What i expect them to say: What they are going to do. They might often not know because of their agile nature, but when they know, they could inform residents. Instead, Residents learn about things either from the general media or county officials.
More importantly, i expect them to listen to resident's concerns, and if possible, give assurances against unfounded concerns.

The negotiations about buyouts are a different aspect. But if you had built up some trust first, it sure would be easyer.

( And i am not referring to any specific SpaceX / Tesla communication issue, but to a more general pattern. Just for clarification. )

There would have been no reason to get media and lawyers involved in any good neighbourly talk format.

SpaceX is no longer starved for cash. Certainly not so starved to pay one halftime dude for some communication job regarding Boca Chica village. You can bet tremendous effort goes into communication with Brownsville officials.

As for buyout prices, i am sure there is some upwards room for SpaceX before an ocean launch option becomes cheaper. Does not require a diamond crusted Tesla, but sure should enable a propper compensation for those who consider moving.

Online Eer

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #47 on: 09/25/2019 01:28 pm »
Moved from the eminent domain thread:

And, by the way, the company still refuses any communications with the residents. For three years now, they've refused to talk to anybody about anything. Since the meeting where they promised to be the best neighbors in the world and keep everyone constantly updated and work to solve any issues that arose.

<snip>

Note that for the upcoming presentation, they had all the chance in the world to invite every Boca Chica resident, no matter if supporter, sceptic or vocal opponent. Instead, what Elon said was that he would invite supporters - and if those were residents, that was more a coincidence. Definitely not a sign of good neighbourhood, it is more a typical PR event. Which, again, would be totally ok if not for the fact that they never met with or talked to residents, as Nomadd has pointed out.


There are more than ample opportunities for different meetings, and not every one needs to be a town hall forum (a reference to a custom here of a public "ask me anything" dialog between self-selected public representatives and noteworthy leaders).  Yes, there should be a public hearing if there is ample (e.g., more than one) resident wanting to air their grievances that way.  But no, the design update presentation on Saturday doesn't have to be where that takes place - and arguably a closed door forum makes more sense to me as a good faith way to address open concerns.

Quote

It boils down to this:
You can not build the future of mankind by collaterally trampling down on people's lives who never had a say in if they want to deal with you.

Not in any way meaning to endorse history in this regard, but just what in history suggests to you that SpaceX CAN'T "build the future of mankind by collaterally trampling down on people's lives who never had a say in if they want to deal with you"?  Do you have a successful counter example?

Breakout/expansion has, as best I recall, never begun with benign "consensus" of all concerned.  But maybe I'm ill informed.

In today's world can they do better?  I hope so.  Must they?  That, I fear, leads the discussion off topic into politics and just how optimistic or cynical you're feeling at the time.
From "The Rhetoric of Interstellar Flight", by Paul Gilster, March 10, 2011: We’ll build a future in space one dogged step at a time, and when asked how long humanity will struggle before reaching the stars, we’ll respond, “As long as it takes.”

Offline Wargrim

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #48 on: 09/25/2019 01:28 pm »
some of your neighbors who are hoping for million dollar paydays
Do you have a citation for that? I mean it is sure plausible that some would hope for that, but the only time i have read mentions of millions was in jokes or in expressing unwillingness to move even for large sums.

( There have been some resident statements in past forum threads and local media articles, but i wont search for all of them again. This link here is the latest article that i have read, i originally posted it in the last/recently locked updates thread:  https://www.valleymorningstar.com/2019/09/22/homeowners-reject-spacex-buyout-offer/ )
« Last Edit: 09/25/2019 01:56 pm by Wargrim »

Offline AC in NC

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #49 on: 09/25/2019 01:31 pm »
This is a dead giveaway they simply do not care. The very basic of being a good neighbour is to simply talk. It is not like Elon would have to visit and talk to all residents, he is super busy of course, but SpaceX has thousands of employees. It is a complete non-issue to have one employee whose part-time job it is to handle communication with Boca Chica residents.

I'm very much inclined to agree with this.  It's terribly disappointing if true.

However, there is one facet of legal/regulatory issues in the US that may be in play.   The US legal system seems to very much be set up where liability is avoided by sticking to well-known processes and treating everyone the same.

It seems stupid but it feels like lots of issues go to trials because lawyers advises clients to avoid apologizing because it implies guilt.

May or may not apply in some sense here but still, in my opinion, doesn't really excuse the posture w.r.t. the Village as I'm interpreting it.

Online jstrotha0975

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #50 on: 09/25/2019 01:43 pm »
An article from Business Insider claims that "SpaceX itself can't force anyone to leave, and the company has not said it'd try. But the Cameron County Spaceport Development Corporation, a nonprofit created in 2013 to support the company, has eminent-domain authority." https://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-boca-chica-texas-launch-site-spaceport-corporation-eminent-domain-2019-9

Offline philw1776

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #51 on: 09/25/2019 02:13 pm »
SpaceX has decided that my 3 bedroom, 2 bath brick house that has all new plumbing and electrical, every square inch restored, new double pane coastal rated tempered glass windows, new 230 foot cedar, hurricane code fence and a hundred other improvements totaling around 40 grand in the last four years, has a market value of $46,900, as far as I can tell, based on tax records and one fuzzy aerial photo.

I guess that goes to show how inaccurate Zillow can be, since they showed the lowest priced property to be in the low $70K range.

Whatever the outcome, I hope it's a positive one for you and your neighbors.

Zillow is awful.  I have a few hundred K villa in FL identical to my neighbors' except mine (a) has a far superior water view and (2) is the only one totally gutted & redone $$$ since the old 1991 neighbors.  For that, Zillow has me valued at $10K less than all the neighbors.

Again these Boca properties are unique in the most important aspect, Location.  You can't go buy say a ~$300K condo on SPI that isn't in a crowded area, and certainly not one adjacent to miles of beach with no structures.  Unique.  That's why non-SpaceX fans bought there.
FULL SEND!!!!

Offline rsdavis9

Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #52 on: 09/25/2019 02:15 pm »
I know this will isn't very sympathetic but...

I have followed many of musk's businesses and he is not known for being nice to competitors, fellow partners, employees, etc.
Half of me doesn't like what he does.
The other half sees that he is getting things done at all costs very rapidly.

So in this controversy. I am half for spacex and getting the job done quickly at all costs. And half sympathetic for peoples rights getting trampled.

I would assume since this is a forum about space that many of you are divided as well.

I am of course a spacenut at all costs. To quote Spock: "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one".

And living in NH I have no skin in the game of "all costs".

EDIT: your "god emperor of mars" is an as*ole
« Last Edit: 09/25/2019 02:30 pm by rsdavis9 »
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Offline capoman

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #53 on: 09/25/2019 02:22 pm »
This is a dead giveaway they simply do not care. The very basic of being a good neighbour is to simply talk. It is not like Elon would have to visit and talk to all residents, he is super busy of course, but SpaceX has thousands of employees. It is a complete non-issue to have one employee whose part-time job it is to handle communication with Boca Chica residents.

I'm very much inclined to agree with this.  It's terribly disappointing if true.

However, there is one facet of legal/regulatory issues in the US that may be in play.   The US legal system seems to very much be set up where liability is avoided by sticking to well-known processes and treating everyone the same.

It seems stupid but it feels like lots of issues go to trials because lawyers advises clients to avoid apologizing because it implies guilt.

May or may not apply in some sense here but still, in my opinion, doesn't really excuse the posture w.r.t. the Village as I'm interpreting it.

This is likely the issue. If they gave one holdout $1M, then the rest who got less would be in court looking for their $1M and tie SpaceX up in courts. So SpaceX has made a pretty reasonable offer of 3X value to everyone, which is much better than eminent domain price. If it does go to eminent domain for holdouts, they likely wouldn't have a case against SpaceX at that point, as they made a very generous alternative offer.

About communications? I'm sure they are very careful on that, as they are using third parties for this. If they had a local rep with the community and that person says the wrong thing, then that could end up in court and cost SpaceX a lot of money. This is the result of the ridiculous litigation that goes on in the US for almost anything. I think they doing the only prudent thing they can do under US law.
« Last Edit: 09/25/2019 02:24 pm by capoman »

Offline su27k

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #54 on: 09/25/2019 02:53 pm »
What i expect them to say: What they are going to do. They might often not know because of their agile nature, but when they know, they could inform residents. Instead, Residents learn about things either from the general media or county officials.
More importantly, i expect them to listen to resident's concerns, and if possible, give assurances against unfounded concerns.

Some people get fatigue when Elon changes Starship every year, how would residents, local government and media react when SpaceX changes their plan for this place every year? Falcon Heavy got cancelled 3 times, I'm sure more than once they considered just leave this place as it is, how do you communicate this without pissing off the state and county who went out of their way to get SpaceX here?

As for concerns, I think a lot of that is correct, living close to a launch site is not a good idea, I'm not sure how one can explain these away with a straight face.

Quote
SpaceX is no longer starved for cash. Certainly not so starved to pay one halftime dude for some communication job regarding Boca Chica village. You can bet tremendous effort goes into communication with Brownsville officials.

Remember they fired 10% of their work force just 9 months ago, and they're working on not one, but two big projects that seem monumental even to NASA, I wouldn't say they're starved, but certainly they need to be very careful with their spending.

Online edzieba

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #55 on: 09/25/2019 04:18 pm »
And, by the way, the company still refuses any communications with the residents. For three years now, they've refused to talk to anybody about anything. Since the meeting where they promised to be the best neighbors in the world and keep everyone constantly updated and work to solve any issues that arose.

This is a dead giveaway they simply do not care. The very basic of being a good neighbour is to simply talk. It is not like Elon would have to visit and talk to all residents, he is super busy of course, but SpaceX has thousands of employees. It is a complete non-issue to have one employee whose part-time job it is to handle communication with Boca Chica residents.

What do you expect them to say? I see no scenario that them being chatty would end well for them, especially with media and lawyers involved. You mentioned Tesla's communication issue, I assume you're (partially) referring to the customers/fans who already bought Model 3 demanding payback after Tesla cut prices. Yes they made enough noise to get Elon involved and "solved" the problem, but the cost is Tesla had to pay real money when they're starved for cash. The same is likely true for SpaceX here, they're running this project on a very tight budget, my guess is the build site's annual budget is about $30M, if they gave each 10 home owner $1M that's 30% of their annual budget gone.

What i expect them to say: What they are going to do. They might often not know because of their agile nature, but when they know, they could inform residents. Instead, Residents learn about things either from the general media or county officials.
More importantly, i expect them to listen to resident's concerns, and if possible, give assurances against unfounded concerns.
To be possibly more charitable than deserved (as directly contacting all residents constitutes an hour or so slipping notes under doors): SpaceX may consider informing residents via local officials as informing residents through 'proper channels', i.e. that SpaceX will talk to the county, and assume the county will pass relevant information onto residents. And thus a game of pass-the-buck telephone is set up where everyone things everyone else is talking to everyone else, while nobody is actually the wiser.

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #56 on: 09/25/2019 04:30 pm »
As for concerns, I think a lot of that is correct, living close to a launch site is not a good idea, I'm not sure how one can explain these away with a straight face.

Living close to a launch site is a great idea.

I think we have to distinguish between ownership and residency.  SpaceX is probably perfectly happy to have the Boca Chica residents continue to live there.

Edit:  Well, the letter does seem to contemplate that the residents will eventually move out.  This whole topic defies definitive statements...
« Last Edit: 09/25/2019 04:45 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline marsbase

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #57 on: 09/25/2019 05:27 pm »
And, by the way, the company still refuses any communications with the residents. For three years now, they've refused to talk to anybody about anything. Since the meeting where they promised to be the best neighbors in the world and keep everyone constantly updated and work to solve any issues that arose.

This is a dead giveaway they simply do not care. The very basic of being a good neighbour is to simply talk.....

I am ok with SpaceX being super price concious internally and towards supplies/contractors. Applying the same maximum haggle mentality towards people who have lived there long before SpaceX moved in is NOT ok.

...Definitely not a sign of good neighbourhood, it is more a typical PR event. Which, again, would be totally ok if not for the fact that they never met with or talked to residents, as Nomadd has pointed out.
Nomadd is the person you are using as your source of information for this post.  AIUI, he is not one of the "people who have lived there long before SpaceX moved in" that you are most concerned with .  I agree with you that long time residents of BC who have no motive except to live their lives in a quiet beach community should be given maximum consideration.

    Nomadd has thoughtfully shared the SpaceX appraisal value of his property as being $46,900. This means the 3X offer from SpaceX was $140,700. I appreciate his sharing this.  Real numbers are important, as he has said.  Nomadd has also shared a value of approx. $40k for improvements since he bought his property in BC.  But to evaluate the "fairness" of the SpaceX offer we would also have to know the original purchase price of the property.  And the value for tax purposes would also be helpful to know.  We don't have either of those numbers.  So as it stands, there is no way to know if the SpaceX offer for Nomadd's property seems fair. 
« Last Edit: 09/25/2019 05:37 pm by marsbase »

Online envy887

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #58 on: 09/25/2019 05:33 pm »
Combined with the two week deadline, the real point of these offers is getting pretty obvious.

For those of us who might be missing the obvious, can you elucidate?

Offline Nomadd

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #59 on: 09/25/2019 05:40 pm »
Combined with the two week deadline, the real point of these offers is getting pretty obvious.

For those of us who might be missing the obvious, can you elucidate?
I did.
"It's purpose is pretty obviously to get what they claim is a "more than fair" offer on record."

 Since I put the shutters up when I travel, they probably assumed mine was just another long abandoned junker.
« Last Edit: 09/25/2019 07:51 pm by Nomadd »
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

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