Poll

Of the private lots remaining in the Starship Assembly Area, which will be the last – or within the last group – to sell to SpaceX?

173660
3 (7.1%)
173661
1 (2.4%)
173662
0 (0%)
173667
1 (2.4%)
173666
2 (4.8%)
173658
7 (16.7%)
173652
2 (4.8%)
173648
4 (9.5%)
173713
3 (7.1%)
173714
2 (4.8%)
173719
4 (9.5%)
173720
3 (7.1%)
173722
3 (7.1%)
173727
1 (2.4%)
173728
0 (0%)
173730
6 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 42

Voting closed: 06/29/2020 07:31 pm


Author Topic: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition  (Read 839819 times)

Online pb2000

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #20 on: 09/24/2019 05:12 pm »
I suspect the quiet location will not be so quiet much longer, for those who choose to stay next to an operational rocket launch facility operating at a high launch cadence.

So the peace and tranquility argument might lose some of its validity soon.
I think a few seconds of loud noise every week isn't going to be too painful.
The real question is, where will they land (Both SH Booster and Starship)? The sonic boom on those will rattle your fillings for sure if they RTLS.
Launches attended: Worldview-4 (Atlas V 401), Iridium NEXT Flight 1 (Falcon 9 FT), PAZ+Starlink (Falcon 9 FT), Arabsat-6A (Falcon Heavy)
Pilgrimaged to: Boca Chica (09/19 & 01/22)

Offline AC in NC

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« Last Edit: 09/24/2019 05:52 pm by AC in NC »

Offline CapitalistOppressor

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #22 on: 09/24/2019 06:11 pm »
Good, I was just looking for the thread where this is being discussed.

Basically, I’d just like to strongly recommend that our local Boca Chica residents consult with a lawyer about the offer they received from SpaceX.

I know there was plenty of discussion over the years that they might be protected against a move to invoke eminent domain, but I am skeptical that that is actually the case.

First, there are exemptions in Texas law which might apply in this case and should be thoroughly explored with an attorney.

But second, there are clearly no such restrictions on the Federal government. Furthermore, we already know from media reports that ”SpaceX, along with other local property owners in the area, recently received notices from the Department of Homeland Security about its intent to survey their land.”

https://www.texasstandard.org/stories/how-spacex-could-get-in-the-way-of-the-proposed-southern-border-wall/

Please note that these notices apparently (if memory serves) went out at exactly the same time we noticed that SpaceX had started construction on a water tower in mid December 2018.

The news stories emphasized its possible impact on SpaceX, but I’d just like to point out that it seems far more likely that the intent would be to properly secure the launch site of a company building a rocket with huge national security implications at the border where the current administration also wants to build a wall.

Using eminent domain to clear the decks and accomplish both objectives is basically a no brainer.

Offline CapitalistOppressor

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #23 on: 09/24/2019 06:53 pm »
Further point. In terms of a Texas based condemnation proceeding (which I rather suspect SpaceX will also likely be able to avail itself as both a transportation project and energy transporter, ie they literally plan on using the spaceport to ship natural gas to space) -

”should the final award from either the special commissioners or the trial court be less than or equal to the condemnor’s offer to the landowner before the proceedings, the land- owner must pay, in addition to attorneys’ and appraisers’ fees, all court costs.”

By offering triple appraised value SpaceX would be assured of satisfying this provision even if there are expected differences in appraisals.

https://assets.recenter.tamu.edu/documents/articles/394.pdf

Edit to add missing quotes.
« Last Edit: 09/24/2019 06:55 pm by CapitalistOppressor »

Online Mandella

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #24 on: 09/24/2019 07:22 pm »
Good, I was just looking for the thread where this is being discussed.

Basically, I’d just like to strongly recommend that our local Boca Chica residents consult with a lawyer about the offer they received from SpaceX.

I know there was plenty of discussion over the years that they might be protected against a move to invoke eminent domain, but I am skeptical that that is actually the case.

First, there are exemptions in Texas law which might apply in this case and should be thoroughly explored with an attorney.

But second, there are clearly no such restrictions on the Federal government. Furthermore, we already know from media reports that ”SpaceX, along with other local property owners in the area, recently received notices from the Department of Homeland Security about its intent to survey their land.”

https://www.texasstandard.org/stories/how-spacex-could-get-in-the-way-of-the-proposed-southern-border-wall/

Please note that these notices apparently (if memory serves) went out at exactly the same time we noticed that SpaceX had started construction on a water tower in mid December 2018.

The news stories emphasized its possible impact on SpaceX, but I’d just like to point out that it seems far more likely that the intent would be to properly secure the launch site of a company building a rocket with huge national security implications at the border where the current administration also wants to build a wall.

Using eminent domain to clear the decks and accomplish both objectives is basically a no brainer.

Have you had the chance to read the Eminent Domain thread?

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=49084.0

From that, as I understand it (and am certainly open to correction) the Cameron County Space Development Corporation was established in 2013 with clear permission to use Eminent Domain if necessary for future space related activities in Cameron County.

As such, the permissible use of Eminent Domain has been sitting on the table in plain sight for six years.

Offline CapitalistOppressor

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #25 on: 09/24/2019 08:57 pm »
Good, I was just looking for the thread where this is being discussed.

Basically, I’d just like to strongly recommend that our local Boca Chica residents consult with a lawyer about the offer they received from SpaceX.

I know there was plenty of discussion over the years that they might be protected against a move to invoke eminent domain, but I am skeptical that that is actually the case.

First, there are exemptions in Texas law which might apply in this case and should be thoroughly explored with an attorney.

But second, there are clearly no such restrictions on the Federal government. Furthermore, we already know from media reports that ”SpaceX, along with other local property owners in the area, recently received notices from the Department of Homeland Security about its intent to survey their land.”

https://www.texasstandard.org/stories/how-spacex-could-get-in-the-way-of-the-proposed-southern-border-wall/

Please note that these notices apparently (if memory serves) went out at exactly the same time we noticed that SpaceX had started construction on a water tower in mid December 2018.

The news stories emphasized its possible impact on SpaceX, but I’d just like to point out that it seems far more likely that the intent would be to properly secure the launch site of a company building a rocket with huge national security implications at the border where the current administration also wants to build a wall.

Using eminent domain to clear the decks and accomplish both objectives is basically a no brainer.

Have you had the chance to read the Eminent Domain thread?

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=49084.0

From that, as I understand it (and am certainly open to correction) the Cameron County Space Development Corporation was established in 2013 with clear permission to use Eminent Domain if necessary for future space related activities in Cameron County.

As such, the permissible use of Eminent Domain has been sitting on the table in plain sight for six years.

I have not. I used to skim the Texas thread a few times a month, but haven’t really paid attention to the discussion since the water tower got built and much of that discussion moved to the BFR section.

My recollection of the state of the conversation from back in 2014 was that residents were protected by the Texas constitution, and my current concern was with today’s news reports that residents had rejected SpaceX’s offer and were hoping for million dollar plus payouts.

My feeling since the December reports of the Homeland security surveys in the area was that it was possibly a stalking horse for an eminent domain procedure against residents by the Federal government. It also seemed clear from a superficial reading of Texas procedures that action by local or state government wasn’t off the table.

Given what I see as inevitable condemnation proceedings (at whatever level of government), and the limited leverage by property owners in the area I felt it essential to convey the importance of immediately consulting with a good lawyer on the matter.


Online gongora

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #26 on: 09/24/2019 09:34 pm »
I really doubt the DHS/Border Wall stuff has anything to do with eminent domain possibilities for clearing out people near the launch site.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #27 on: 09/24/2019 10:00 pm »
I really doubt the DHS/Border Wall stuff has anything to do with eminent domain possibilities for clearing out people near the launch site.
It is a benefit and a nuisance to SpaceX because it also includes part of their property as defined in the original environmental documents and the walls planned keep out zone and patrol paths. Federal government is actively using the courts and BLM rulings to declare wall right of way and making the land under and parallel to the wall federal property.

While SpaceX may get eminent domained in regards to some of their land it is indeed separate one being state and one being federal  however the feds could get involved if it's to protect an interest or security claim.

Offline aboveallofit

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #28 on: 09/25/2019 12:39 am »
Wikipedia reports that Cameron County transferred 25 Boca Chica lots to the CCSPDC in May of 2015 for 'event parking.'  Do we know which lots those were?  And, from whom were those lots transferred...and did any money change hands?

Offline AC in NC

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #29 on: 09/25/2019 12:59 am »
Wikipedia reports that Cameron County transferred 25 Boca Chica lots to the CCSPDC in May of 2015 for 'event parking.'  Do we know which lots those were?  And, from whom were those lots transferred...and did any money change hands?

Here's the Cameron County GIS Interactive Map which captures real estate parcels and publicly available tax information amongst other things.  You can see some lots in the village that are already held by Dogleg Park, LLC which seems to be the entity holding SpaceX parcels.  It has the launch/landing parcel for instance.

http://www.cameroncad.org/gis/map

You could dig an find the Title Transfer recordings which might show if money changed hands.  I suspect CC had already acquired some parcels and transferred them as part of the deal or for nominal consideration
« Last Edit: 09/25/2019 01:00 am by AC in NC »

Offline RotoSequence

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #30 on: 09/25/2019 01:02 am »
Taking the properties by Eminent Domain only solves the issue of owners who will not sell under any circumstance.  It will do nothing to speed up the process.  If anything, it might slow things down.

Taking via eminent domain must include "fair / just compensation".  The property owner gets to argue if the offer is fair.  In my experience the way the taking agency usually gets around this is to have several assessments done (with at least one assessor picked by the owner) - then either offer the average or highest $.

In the case of Boca Chica – the tax assessor's “appraised” value does not include the real reason most of the residents chose the location in the first place.  Since Boca Chica is such a unique place – I would think the residents will have a very good argument not to use the normal appraisal processes.

IMO - just deciding what process would be fair could take years of court battles.

I'm under the distinct impression that Texas' tax assessors are somewhat infamous for inflating the value of property far beyond what it's really worth.

Offline AC in NC

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #31 on: 09/25/2019 01:35 am »
I'm under the distinct impression that Texas' tax assessors are somewhat infamous for inflating the value of property far beyond what it's really worth.

That's sort of totally undermined by the Market Value (even above assessed value) of Boca Chica Village on the Cameron County tax rolls.  See the link in OP+1.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #32 on: 09/25/2019 02:38 am »
 I guess posting actual numbers is considered impolite or bad or something, but the biggest middle finger I've ever gotten in my life seems like it should go on record for entertainment value.
 SpaceX has decided that my 3 bedroom, 2 bath brick house that has all new plumbing and electrical, every square inch restored, new double pane coastal rated tempered glass windows, new 230 foot cedar, hurricane code fence and a hundred other improvements totaling around 40 grand in the last four years, has a market value of $46,900, as far as I can tell, based on tax records and one fuzzy aerial photo.
 Combined with the two week deadline, the real point of these offers is getting pretty obvious.

 My apology to my neighbors for thinking they were getting a little dramatic. I didn't see the offer until tonight.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Online dglow

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #33 on: 09/25/2019 03:23 am »
So sorry to hear about that, Nomadd. It breaks my heart that this is how SpaceX treats its neighbors. It wouldn’t cost them much to show far more respect.  :-\

Online pb2000

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #34 on: 09/25/2019 03:38 am »
I think that sums up the problem in Boca Chica pretty succinctly. A lot of the residents have poured money into turning their houses into homes, but the open market doesn't assign any value to that, especially if it's in a neighbourhood that can't support it.

Good luck to you and your neighbours Nomadd  :)
Launches attended: Worldview-4 (Atlas V 401), Iridium NEXT Flight 1 (Falcon 9 FT), PAZ+Starlink (Falcon 9 FT), Arabsat-6A (Falcon Heavy)
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Offline Paul Howard

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #35 on: 09/25/2019 03:56 am »
So sorry to hear about that, Nomadd. It breaks my heart that this is how SpaceX treats its neighbors. It wouldn’t cost them much to show far more respect.  :-\

It's not "SpaceX" making the offer. It'll be suits hired by them to buy up land from people who likely knew this was coming years ago. They will start with the low offer and see who bites. SpaceX will have given a dollar amount they want to spend on the entire area and these suits will be trying to get everyone out for the lowest amount to make money themselves, not SpaceX.

Nomadd's offer will be null and void as it would have been under NDA, but when Facebook Maria leaked the actual letter to Business Insider that's when things will have gone south as we saw with Elon reneging on meeting/inviting locals to the event at the weekend.

But spare us all the 'SpaceX treating neighbors badly'. It's business and it'll be for the community there to hold their ground and wait for better offers.

Full disclosure, I work in real estate. This isn't anything special,, this is standard.
« Last Edit: 09/25/2019 03:56 am by Paul Howard »

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #36 on: 09/25/2019 04:12 am »
SpaceX has decided that my 3 bedroom, 2 bath brick house that has all new plumbing and electrical, every square inch restored, new double pane coastal rated tempered glass windows, new 230 foot cedar, hurricane code fence and a hundred other improvements totaling around 40 grand in the last four years, has a market value of $46,900, as far as I can tell, based on tax records and one fuzzy aerial photo.

I guess that goes to show how inaccurate Zillow can be, since they showed the lowest priced property to be in the low $70K range.

Whatever the outcome, I hope it's a positive one for you and your neighbors.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline Nomadd

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #37 on: 09/25/2019 04:27 am »
So sorry to hear about that, Nomadd. It breaks my heart that this is how SpaceX treats its neighbors. It wouldn’t cost them much to show far more respect.  :-\

It's not "SpaceX" making the offer. It'll be suits hired by them to buy up land from people who likely knew this was coming years ago. They will start with the low offer and see who bites. SpaceX will have given a dollar amount they want to spend on the entire area and these suits will be trying to get everyone out for the lowest amount to make money themselves, not SpaceX.

Nomadd's offer will be null and void as it would have been under NDA, but when Facebook Maria leaked the actual letter to Business Insider that's when things will have gone south as we saw with Elon reneging on meeting/inviting locals to the event at the weekend.

But spare us all the 'SpaceX treating neighbors badly'. It's business and it'll be for the community there to hold their ground and wait for better offers.

Full disclosure, I work in real estate. This isn't anything special,, this is standard.
Stop pretending to know anything whatsoever about the situation.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Online dglow

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #38 on: 09/25/2019 04:31 am »
It's not "SpaceX" making the offer. It'll be suits hired by them to buy up land from people who likely knew this was coming years ago. They will start with the low offer and see who bites.
Does it matter? Whether direct employee, contractor, or agent, if one represents the company then their actions will reflect on said company, for good or ill.

Quote
But spare us all the 'SpaceX treating neighbors badly'. It's business and it'll be for the community there to hold their ground and wait for better offers.
If you feel it is pointless to hold those we admire to higher standards, then I feel for you.

Quote
Full disclosure, I work in real estate. This isn't anything special, this is standard.
Noted.

Offline Syrinx

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Re: SpaceX Boca Chica Property Acquisition
« Reply #39 on: 09/25/2019 04:31 am »
Maybe my property is worth more to me (a lot more, apparently) than it is to the business suits in Houston -- I'm ok with that.  But forcing me to sell?  That scares the piss out of me.

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