Author Topic: Cidco Rd. Manufacturing Site in Cocoa, Florida  (Read 230247 times)

Offline Thorny

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #60 on: 05/17/2019 06:28 pm »
You could go along the Canaveral barge canal but it's hard to see where you'd load it onto the barge in the Indian River.

There is a dock for barges at the Florida Power & Light plant in Port St. John a few miles north, but getting there probably isn't any easier than going over to the Port.

Offline Cheapchips

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #61 on: 05/17/2019 07:44 pm »
if you look at the top map, that is the wrong way to enter the freeway unless you close the westbound lane while transporting the Starship.  We drive on the right side of the road in the US.  Westbound it on the north side, east bound on the south side.

Yep, that's deliberate to avoid the underpass.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #62 on: 05/17/2019 08:03 pm »
 Let's see how the competition's going so far....Moving from construction site to launch pad. Boca Chica requires a 3/8" wrench to take a few road signs down and two cases of beer to bribe a half dozen fishermen.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline enbandi

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #63 on: 05/17/2019 08:13 pm »
Now a competition, involving locals cheering for their home team :). But I am afraid that Cocoa has a bit bigger neibourhood to recruit supporters from....

Offline Spindog

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #64 on: 05/17/2019 08:20 pm »
I'm sure the Cocoa vs Boca competition will need it's own thread soon! But, to kick things off, does anyone else think the welds they can see at Cocoa look a good bit nicer than those Boca? From what little we can see in the photos I would say so.

Offline punder

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #65 on: 05/17/2019 08:28 pm »
My hunch is that it is a flying water tower.

It is a flying water tower--just with the water broken down into its constituent elements, with some carbon thrown in!   ;D

Offline punder

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #66 on: 05/17/2019 08:33 pm »
I was reading this and decided to drive by as It's on my way home from work and saw this pulling in the gate!

Wait a minute... was this photo taken inside an O'Neill cylinder??

Offline WindyCity

Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #67 on: 05/17/2019 10:18 pm »
Regarding the discussion of how to transport sections of the Starship from the Cocoa facility to the Cape launch site (or to a final assembly building nearby), I don't recall reading any posts that raised the possibility of using a heavy-lift helicopter for the job. Were it feasible, it would of course eliminate having to navigate highway obstructions or waterways. I am assuming that the vehicle would not be constructed enitrely away from the launch site. SpaceX would have to build a factory near the pad. I am also assuming that the rocket could be assembled horizontally.

A cursory online search kicked out the specs for the currently in-use Sikorsky S-64 Skycrane. Its empty weight is 19,234 lb (8,724 kg). Its maximum take-off weight is 42,000 lb (19,050 kg). That leaves 22, 766 lb (10, 326 kg) to be taken up by pilots, fuel, rigging, and cargo. I don't know what the average weight of the Starship sections would be, but I am guessing that the lift capacity of the Sikorsky S-64 Skycrane could handle them.
« Last Edit: 05/17/2019 10:46 pm by WindyCity »

Offline spacenut

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #68 on: 05/18/2019 04:01 am »
What does Starship weigh?  A Skycrane may be able to lift a Starship, maybe a SuperHeavy also, if they are both empty.  Maybe without engines.  Put the engines on at the pad. 

Offline Cheapchips

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #69 on: 05/18/2019 06:10 am »
You could go along the Canaveral barge canal but it's hard to see where you'd load it onto the barge in the Indian River.

There is a dock for barges at the Florida Power & Light plant in Port St. John a few miles north, but getting there probably isn't any easier than going over to the Port.

There a foot bridge that's I don't think they could get under, even if they transported horizontally.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/wL1XQWfEm2adrngm8

If you can get past that, then you're far enough north you might as well just carry on past the dock to the NASA causeway.  I think it's an unobstructed route from there to 39a.

Offline alienmike

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #70 on: 05/18/2019 06:38 am »
I see no significant obstacles on Grissom Pkwy; just some traffic signals. It goes through some neighborhoods, but it goes straight up to the Nasa Causeway (405).

Offline philw1776

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #71 on: 05/18/2019 06:19 pm »
What does Starship weigh?  A Skycrane may be able to lift a Starship, maybe a SuperHeavy also, if they are both empty.  Maybe without engines.  Put the engines on at the pad.

We only have the old stated goal of stage 2 massing maybe 85 metric tonnes, but likely less.
Bottom line, SS dry masses many tens of tonnes, well over 50.
SH masses guestimate between 100 to 200 tonnes, around 150 give or take.
WAY too heavy for helicopters in the context of this discussion, even with the engines removed.
« Last Edit: 05/18/2019 06:19 pm by philw1776 »
FULL SEND!!!!

Offline speedevil

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #72 on: 05/18/2019 06:43 pm »
What does Starship weigh?  A Skycrane may be able to lift a Starship, maybe a SuperHeavy also, if they are both empty.  Maybe without engines.  Put the engines on at the pad.

We only have the old stated goal of stage 2 massing maybe 85 metric tonnes, but likely less.
Bottom line, SS dry masses many tens of tonnes, well over 50.
SH masses guestimate between 100 to 200 tonnes, around 150 give or take.
WAY too heavy for helicopters in the context of this discussion, even with the engines removed.

We also have the fairly relevant mass of the 'Starkicker' - https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1111798912141017089 - 40 tons empty, 1200 tons full, 3 engines. (From the end of March).
And then yesterdays comment that SS can do SSTO, but not with fins or legs, and that raptor performance has not gone up.

It does not seem unreasonable to assume Starkicker is basically SS without some engines, and with the nose truncated.

A 40m 9m cylinder of 3/16" SS (from welder tests) has a surface area of around 1200m^2. This is 40 tons.

So, 60 tons for the full nose, plus 10 for engines and 'stuff' not strictly required in starkicker might be a reasonable guesstimate for mass of the SS bare hull.

Then we have little to work with other than the differences between this and no legs make it unable to SSTO.

I don't think it's very likely to assume Starkicker would be made of much thinner stuff - it's still got to handle launches, so it seems a reasonable datapoint.

Offline Jcc

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #73 on: 05/18/2019 08:11 pm »
What does Starship weigh?  A Skycrane may be able to lift a Starship, maybe a SuperHeavy also, if they are both empty.  Maybe without engines.  Put the engines on at the pad.

We only have the old stated goal of stage 2 massing maybe 85 metric tonnes, but likely less.
Bottom line, SS dry masses many tens of tonnes, well over 50.
SH masses guestimate between 100 to 200 tonnes, around 150 give or take.
WAY too heavy for helicopters in the context of this discussion, even with the engines removed.

Maybe they can build section in Cocoa that are small enough to transport by helicopter, then assemble them at LC39A, or someplace where they can transport it to 39A. They canít do all the work there, because they would need to stop for launch ops, but maybe the stacking can be done between launches.

Offline Zpoxy

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #74 on: 05/18/2019 08:24 pm »
What does Starship weigh?  A Skycrane may be able to lift a Starship, maybe a SuperHeavy also, if they are both empty.  Maybe without engines.  Put the engines on at the pad.

We only have the old stated goal of stage 2 massing maybe 85 metric tonnes, but likely less.
Bottom line, SS dry masses many tens of tonnes, well over 50.
SH masses guestimate between 100 to 200 tonnes, around 150 give or take.
WAY too heavy for helicopters in the context of this discussion, even with the engines removed.

Maybe they can build section in Cocoa that are small enough to transport by helicopter, then assemble them at LC39A, or someplace where they can transport it to 39A. They canít do all the work there, because they would need to stop for launch ops, but maybe the stacking can be done between launches.
You're guys are making a problem where there isn't one. Beyel Brothers crane and transporter yard is just east of this site. Beyel Brothers is in the business of moving big, bulky objects. They moved Atlantis to her final display building at the KSC visitors center. SpaceX has this figured out ahead of time. They're not going to lease a fabricators shop, start building Starship and then go "whoops, how do we get it out of here". I know this is NSF, and speculation is half the fun here but it's not rocket science, LOL....
« Last Edit: 05/18/2019 08:25 pm by Zpoxy »

Offline gongora

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #75 on: 05/18/2019 08:25 pm »
Maybe they can build section in Cocoa that are small enough to transport by helicopter, then assemble them at LC39A, or someplace where they can transport it to 39A. They canít do all the work there, because they would need to stop for launch ops, but maybe the stacking can be done between launches.

A lot of the work comes after the sections are stacked.  I don't really see a lot of upside to making those hoop sections in a different location from the rest of assembly.
« Last Edit: 05/18/2019 08:26 pm by gongora »

Offline WindyCity

Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #76 on: 05/18/2019 08:30 pm »
\
Maybe they can build section in Cocoa that are small enough to transport by helicopter, then assemble them at LC39A, or someplace where they can transport it to 39A. They canít do all the work there, because they would need to stop for launch ops, but maybe the stacking can be done between launches.
That was my thought, too. The notion that SpaceX would be able to transport a fully constructed Starship from Cocoa to the Cape launch site strikes me as dubious. To say the least, the logistics of such an operation would be daunting. Woudn't it be more feasible to build sections and components of the vehicle in units capable of being moved readily by land and water or by heavy-lift helicopters, then assembled near the pad?

Offline WindyCity

Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #77 on: 05/18/2019 08:41 pm »
You're guys are making a problem where there isn't one. Beyel Brothers crane and transporter yard is just east of this site. Beyel Brothers is in the business of moving big, bulky objects. They moved Atlantis to her final display building at the KSC visitors center. SpaceX has this figured out ahead of time. They're not going to lease a fabricators shop, start building Starship and then go "whoops, how do we get it out of here". I know this is NSF, and speculation is half the fun here but it's not rocket science, LOL....
I agree that SpaceX no doubt has this "figured out" already. Has Beyel Brothers moved an object as large and heavy as a fully constructed StarShip across urban roads, highways, and waterways? Also, moving Atlantis was a logistical nightmare, involving significant temporary dismantling of light poles, signage, and overhead wiring. The move disrupted traffic and commerce and was overall a pain in the neck. How often would residents and authorities in that area be willing to tolerate such activity? Wouldn't it be more sensible to complete the assembly of the rocket ship near its launch site?
« Last Edit: 05/18/2019 08:47 pm by WindyCity »

Offline Zpoxy

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Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #78 on: 05/18/2019 09:06 pm »
You're guys are making a problem where there isn't one. Beyel Brothers crane and transporter yard is just east of this site. Beyel Brothers is in the business of moving big, bulky objects. They moved Atlantis to her final display building at the KSC visitors center. SpaceX has this figured out ahead of time. They're not going to lease a fabricators shop, start building Starship and then go "whoops, how do we get it out of here". I know this is NSF, and speculation is half the fun here but it's not rocket science, LOL....
I agree that SpaceX no doubt has this "figured out" already. Has Beyel Brothers moved an object as large and heavy as a fully constructed StarShip across urban roads, highways, and waterways? Also, moving Atlantis was a logistical nightmare, involving significant temporary dismantling of light poles, signage, and overhead wiring. The move disrupted traffic and commerce and was overall a pain in the neck. How often would residents and authorities in that area be willing to tolerate such activity? Wouldn't it be more sensible to complete the assembly of the rocket ship near its launch site?
WindyCity, I guess I should modify my thoughts. Yes, I agree moving the fully assembled Starship is probably not the best idea. But you're making a mountain out of a molehill as far as moving the segments. There are plenty of vacant sites at KSC to do the assembly without impacting other operations. This is the Space Coast, we deal with these operations all the time. It's not that big a deal. Payloads are serviced in Titusville at Astrotech, and trucked to the space center. It's part of life here in Brevard county. Atlantis was moved over KSC roadways until it reached SR 405, again not that big a deal. There were no local residents impacted. Access to the visitors centers was not too badly interrupted. It was an event, not a disruption. Now if SpaceX was trying to do this in Chicago I agree, it would be a major pain in the neck for all concerned.

Offline WindyCity

Re: Starship Manufacturing in Cocoa, Florida
« Reply #79 on: 05/18/2019 11:03 pm »
Yes, I agree moving the fully assembled Starship is probably not the best idea. But you're making a mountain out of a molehill as far as moving the segments.
I guess I misunderstood you. I thought you were among the posters who think that assembling the rocket ship at KSC near the launch site was a bad idea. Apparently, what you were saying is that transporting pieces or segments of the vehicle by road or waterway from Cocoa to KSC would not involve serious disruption or logistical problems. That's a pack mule of a different color. In my imagination, I would think that a sky crane to transport Starship piecemeal, were that feasible, would eliminate a host of difficulties, even if routes over ground and water were relatively uncomplicated.
« Last Edit: 05/18/2019 11:06 pm by WindyCity »

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