Author Topic: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission  (Read 213596 times)

Offline jimvela

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #420 on: 12/14/2022 05:34 pm »
Anyone know why its using wheels for feet?

That image looks like a very rough prototype- with a microcontroller dev board of some kind up on top and various additions to add the wheels and associated components.  It doesn't look like there's rotors fitted and probably not even motors on the rotor shafts .

It's purpose may be just to test the wheeled mobility parts of the changes and little else.

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #421 on: 12/14/2022 05:39 pm »
Wheels mean it can make very fine adjustments in position as it approaches the sample tube. 

Offline edzieba

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #422 on: 12/14/2022 08:00 pm »
It also means that it can use the wheels to traverse over terrain that is wheel-traversable more efficiently than flying (i.e. more distance travelled for that Sol's battery charge).

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #423 on: 12/17/2022 04:24 am »
You can see how the helicopter boiler plate is able to drive up to and position itself over the sample tube using skid steering in this video.

https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/27176/sample-recovery-helicopter-model-gets-a-test/
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline sdsds

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #424 on: 12/26/2022 01:34 am »
 Somewhat light-heartedly, when do we get to start suggesting names for the various vehicles used in this mission architecture?

And where can I go to start collecting up-votes for "Tenacity?"

 ;D
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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #425 on: 01/06/2023 07:34 am »
Sample Retrieval Lander (SRL)
Quote
Overview
NASA's Sample Retrieval Lander would touch down on Mars and remain in place to receive a diverse collection of scientifically curated samples of Martian rock already collected and cached by NASA's Perseverance rover.

The lander would be the first ever to bring along a rocket — NASA's Mars Ascent Vehicle — and two helicopters, to help achieve the goal of bringing the samples safely to Earth for study. The Mars Ascent Vehicle would launch off the Red Planet, carrying samples into Mars orbit to meet the Earth Return Orbiter provided by the European Space Agency (ESA). The orbiter would then take the samples the rest of the way to our planet. The two NASA Sample Recovery Helicopters, modified versions of the Ingenuity Mars Helicopter that Perseverance brought to Mars, would serve as backups for Perseverance's task of bringing sample tubes to the lander.

In addition, the lander would carry ESA's Sample Transfer Arm to load the sample tubes for return to Earth.

Role in Mars Sample Return Campaign
The Sample Retrieval Lander would play an important role in the safe return of Mars rock and atmosphere samples to Earth, delivering crucial spacecraft and hardware to Mars: the rocket that would launch samples from Mars, the two helicopters, and a robotic arm to transfer the samples into the rocket. Once the samples are on Earth, scientists around the world would examine them using sophisticated instruments too large and complex to send to Mars. The samples would remain available for future generations to study with increasingly advanced technologies. Scientists believe the samples could shed light on whether life has ever existed on Mars.

Quick Facts

This cutout concept illustration of the Mars Sample Retrieval Lander shows five flat multi-sided solar panels, two of its tripod-style legs, a white sample transfer arm mechanism protruding from the left side, and three fueling tanks, plus part of a fourth tank.

Project Name                                       Sample Retrieval Lander
Main Job                                               Receive samples collected by Perseverance rover and prepare them for
                                                            return to Earth
Launch Date                                       Planned launch in 2028
Mars Arrival                                       2030
Sample Return to Earth                       Samples would arrive on Earth in 2033
Landing Site                                       Near the Perseverance rover's landing site in Jezero Crater

Tech Specs
Length                                               About the size of an average two-car garage; tentatively planned to be
                                                            25.4 feet wide (~7.7 meters) and 6.9 feet high (2.1 meters) with solar
                                                            panels deployed
Mass                                                     3,375 kilograms
Weight                                               ~7,440 pounds on Earth (3,375 kilograms)
                                                            ~2,790 pounds on Mars (1,266 kilograms)
Deck Height                                       82.7 inches (210 centimeters)
Robotic Arm Length                               78.7 inches (2 meters) outstretched
Power Source                                       Five solar panels, ~7.2 feet (2.19 meters) in diameter, and a secondary battery to power the lander on the surface of Mars.

                                                                        5 Things to Know
1)Biggest Lander Ever Sent to Mars
The payload mass of the lander is double that of the Perseverance rover (1,241 pounds, or 563 kilograms). The lander's hefty cargo would include a rocket, sample transfer arm, and two helicopters. Each landing leg would be roughly the size of a human adult, with the whole lander standing about as tall as a professional basketball player.

2) Enabling First Launch from Another Planet
The Sample Retrieval Lander would be the first-ever spacecraft to carry a rocket to another planet and launch it from there. The lander would launch the Mars Ascent Vehicle by "tossing" it upward as high as 14.8 feet (4.5 meters) above the lander — or 21.3 feet (6.5 meters) above the Martian surface. Once aloft, the rocket would ignite and fly off to release the container of sample tubes into a stable orbit around Mars for rendezvous with ESA's Earth Return Orbiter.

3) First Mars Vehicle to Carry Two Helicopters
These aerial explorers would be based on the Ingenuity Helicopter carried to the Red Planet by the Perseverance rover. They would have wheels added for agility and a small arm to grab one sample tube at a time, in case the helicopters are needed to help retrieve Mars samples left by Perseverance.

4) Ultra-Precision Landing
The lander needs to be close to the Perseverance rover to facilitate the transfer of Mars samples. It must land within 66 yards (60 meters) of its target site — much closer than previous Mars rovers and landers. The lander would take advantage of an enhanced version of NASA's successful Terrain Relative Navigation that helped land Perseverance safely. The new Enhanced Lander Vision System would, among other improvements, add a second camera, an altimeter, and better capabilities to use propulsion for precision landing.

5) Interactions with Multiple Vehicles
The lander would interact with the Perseverance rover, the Sample Recovery Helicopters (as needed), and the Mars Ascent Vehicle in order to prepare the sample tubes for launch into orbit around Mars. The task requires many highly accurate robotic arm movements, to be performed by ESA's Sample Transfer Arm.

More at: https://mars.nasa.gov/msr/spacecraft/sample-retrieval-lander/
« Last Edit: 01/06/2023 07:56 am by Chinakpradhan »

Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #426 on: 01/06/2023 07:38 am »
Mars Ascent Vehicle (MAV)
Quote
Overview
The Mars Ascent Vehicle (MAV) is a lightweight rocket that would transport the sample return container, or Orbiting Sample (OS), into orbit as part of NASA and European Space Agency’s (ESA) Mars Sample Return Program. It would be the first rocket ever to launch off the surface of another planet, and would transport the sample tubes containing Martian rock and soil samples into orbit around Mars. The rocket and orbiting sample container would travel to Mars on board the Sample Retrieval Lander, and would remain on board until they’ve been loaded with samples and prepped for launch. Once into orbit, ESA’s Earth Return Orbiter (ERO) would capture and store them in a secure containment capsule for safe delivery to Earth.

Role in Mars Sample Return Campaign
By ensuring the transportation of the container filled with samples of Martian rock and soil into Mars’ orbit, the rocket would play a vital role in returning the most well-documented set of samples ever collected from another planet to Earth.

Quick Facts

This illustration is a cut out concept showing NASA's Mars Ascent Vehicle (MAV) in powered flight.
Project Name                                     Mars Ascent Vehicle
Main Job                                             To transport the samples into Mars orbit
Launch to Mars                                     Planned launch in 2028 (on board NASA's Sample Retrieval Lander)
Mars Arrival                                     2030
Landing Site                                     Near the Perseverance rover's landing site in Jezero Crater
Launch from Mars                               Early 2030s

Tech Specs
Height                           10 feet (3 meters) tall
Mass                            ~450 kilograms
Weight                           ~992 pounds on Earth (~450 kilograms)
                                        ~372 pounds on Mars (~169 kilograms)
Diameter                           1.6 feet (0.5 meters) wide
Speed                           2.5 miles per second (about 4 kilometers per second), the MAV would reach its desired
                                        orbit about 10 minutes after launch
Fuel                                   Two-stage, solid propellant rocket

                                                                       5 Things to Know
1) First Rocket Launch From Another Planet
The Mars Ascent Vehicle would be the first rocket ever launched from the surface of another planet. With the Orbiting Sample container onboard, this milestone proves even more significant, as it brings us one step closer to obtaining the precious samples that the Perseverance rover has spent so much time collecting!

2) Not Your Traditional Rocket Launch
In order to launch the rocket into the air, the lander will throw the MAV several meters above itself. The front would be tossed a bit harder than the back, causing the rocket to point upward, toward the Martian sky. The rocket's solid propellant first stage would then ignite in midair and the rocket would take off!

3) What's Better Than One Burn? Two!
This rocket would employ a two-stage burn to reach Mars orbit — the first stage is thrust vector controlled with a nominal burn time of about 75 seconds. The MAV would then coast and separate from the first stage (dropping with it all active control). The second stage is spin stabilized with a nominal burn time of about 20 seconds and is used to inject into Mars orbit, where it would then deploy the Orbiting Sample container. Both the second stage of the MAV and the OS would remain in Mars orbit. The first stage would crash back to Mars.

4) A Straight Shot Into Space
The rocket's second stage burn would use a method called spin stabilization to keep the rocket straight on its journey — the physics are similar to the act of throwing a football in a spiral motion to keep it flying straight. It allows the rocket to be lighter, so it wouldn't have to carry active control all the way to orbit. However, it means it must be carefully balanced. Experiment: securely tape a weight (like a rock) to one side of a football and try to throw it. How does it fly?

5) An Igloo Fit For A Rocket
Until it's time for the Perseverance rover to transfer the Orbiting Sample container to the rocket, the MAV would be contained in a protective temperature-controlled enclosure inside the lander, like an igloo. This igloo is intended to keep the MAV's equipment protected and warm in the harsh Martian conditions. Even though the mission is timed to take place during the Red Planet’s springtime, temperatures will likely dip below minus 90 degrees F (about minus 68 degrees C) each night.

More at: https://mars.nasa.gov/msr/spacecraft/mars-ascent-vehicle/
« Last Edit: 01/06/2023 07:54 am by Chinakpradhan »

Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #427 on: 01/06/2023 07:44 am »
2 Sample Recovery Helicopters
Quote
Overview
The Sample Recovery Helicopters are modeled after the successful Ingenuity Mars Helicopter, carried to the Red Planet by NASA's Perseverance rover. These specialized rotorcraft would be a secondary method of sample retrieval for the NASA/ESA Mars Sample Return Campaign. Currently, the Perseverance rover, which has already been collecting a diverse set of scientifically curated samples for potential safe return to Earth, is planned as the primary method of delivering samples to the Sample Retrieval Lander. The Sample Recovery Helicopters would expand on Ingenuity's design, adding wheels and gripping capabilities to pick up cached sample tubes left on the surface by Perseverance and transport them to the Sample Retrieval Lander.

Role in Mars Sample Return Campaign
By serving as another method of retrieving cached samples on Mars, the Sample Recovery Helicopters would help ensure the best chance of successfully returning a scientifically compelling selection of Mars rock and soil samples to Earth.

Quick Facts

Sample Recovery Helicopter
Project Name                    Sample Recovery Helicopters
Main Job                            Provide a secondary means of retrieving sample tubes from Mars for transport to Earth
Launch Date                    Planned launch in 2028 (on board NASA's Sample Retrieval Lander)
Mars Arrival                    2030
Sample Return to Earth    Samples would arrive on Earth in 2033
Landing Site                    Near the Perseverance rover's landing site in Jezero Crater

Tech Specs
Size                           About the size of Ingenuity Mars Helicopter, which has a rotor span of ~4 feet (~1.2 meters)
Mass                           ~2.3 kilograms
Weight                   ~5 pounds on Earth (~2.26 kilograms)
                                ~1.9 pounds on Mars (~8.6 kilograms)
Height                   ~20.47 inches (~52 centimeters)
Power                   Solar panels that charge internal lithium-ion batteries
Groundspeed           ~11 mph (~5 meters per second)
Flight Range           ~2,300 feet (700 meters)
Flight Altitude           ~66 feet (20 meters)
Flight Environment   Mars’ thin atmosphere, less than 1% the density of Earth's atmosphere
Mobility                   Four wheels about 0.8 inches (2 centimeters) wide, with an outer diameter of about 3.94
                                inches (10 centimeters)

                                                                         5 Things to Know
1) Standing Ready to Assist Perseverance
The Sample Recovery Helicopters are not planned to be the primary method of retrieving samples on Mars. Current plans call for the Perseverance rover to carry sample tubes directly to the Sample Retrieval Lander. However, should the rover become unable to deliver its onboard samples, the helicopters would be prepared to collect alternate sample tubes previously left on the surface by Perseverance.

2) Fly, Drive, Grab, and Go!
The Sample Recovery Helicopters would be newly equipped with wheels to traverse along the ground in short distances, and grabber arms to secure tubes during flight.

3) Careful Navigation
The Sample Recovery Helicopters would take off and land at predetermined sites, or helipads, that have been found suitable and safe, and would use in-flight, map-based navigation to reach the known locations of sample tubes left on the surface.

4) Collecting a Sample in Four Days
Each helicopter would follow a four-day procedure to recover sample tubes. Day 1: fly to an area near the sample tube. Day 2: drive close to the tube and pick it up. Day 3: fly back to an area near the Sample Retrieval Lander. Day 4: drive close to the lander and drop the tube in the workspace of the lander's Sample Transfer Arm.

5) A Longer Journey on Mars
Scientists are currently investigating other potential science or exploration uses for the helicopters following the completion of the Mars Sample Return effort.

More at: https://mars.nasa.gov/msr/spacecraft/sample-recovery-helicopters/
« Last Edit: 01/06/2023 07:53 am by Chinakpradhan »

Offline litton4

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #428 on: 01/31/2023 08:59 am »
With Percy now having dropped the last of it's first sample cache, what are the chances that the tubes will get covered by dust and hidden in the event that they are needed some years from now....?
Dave Condliffe

Offline Blackstar

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #429 on: 01/31/2023 11:39 am »
With Percy now having dropped the last of it's first sample cache, what are the chances that the tubes will get covered by dust and hidden in the event that they are needed some years from now....?

Very low. They have calculated this. Note that rover tracks for earlier rovers are still visible from space.

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #430 on: 01/31/2023 08:52 pm »
If you look at the images of the dropped tubes you can see they fall on a surface made of small rock fragments, gravel and rock chips, not fine dust or sand.  This is an area where fine material is being stripped away, leaving a lag deposit of fragments too big to blow away.  If dust was being deposited quickly enough to bury a (c.) 1 cm diameter tube in 10 years the whole of Jezero crater would be filled with dust already.  So nothing o fear.

Don't forget, though, that this cache will almost certainly not be collected by the sample return mission.  It's a backup.  The sample return mission is more likely to get the next set, which will be the second copies of all this stuff plus a whole lot more.

Offline deadman1204

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #431 on: 02/01/2023 02:01 pm »
If you look at the images of the dropped tubes you can see they fall on a surface made of small rock fragments, gravel and rock chips, not fine dust or sand.  This is an area where fine material is being stripped away, leaving a lag deposit of fragments too big to blow away.  If dust was being deposited quickly enough to bury a (c.) 1 cm diameter tube in 10 years the whole of Jezero crater would be filled with dust already.  So nothing o fear.

Don't forget, though, that this cache will almost certainly not be collected by the sample return mission.  It's a backup.  The sample return mission is more likely to get the next set, which will be the second copies of all this stuff plus a whole lot more.
I kinda hope that they'll send the helicopters to pick some of them up as bonus samples.

Offline vjkane

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #432 on: 02/01/2023 02:54 pm »
If you look at the images of the dropped tubes you can see they fall on a surface made of small rock fragments, gravel and rock chips, not fine dust or sand.  This is an area where fine material is being stripped away, leaving a lag deposit of fragments too big to blow away.  If dust was being deposited quickly enough to bury a (c.) 1 cm diameter tube in 10 years the whole of Jezero crater would be filled with dust already.  So nothing o fear.

Don't forget, though, that this cache will almost certainly not be collected by the sample return mission.  It's a backup.  The sample return mission is more likely to get the next set, which will be the second copies of all this stuff plus a whole lot more.
If Percy travels as far as hoped into the Midway area, the cache on the crater floor will be dozens of kilometers away and beyond the reach of the helicopters.
I kinda hope that they'll send the helicopters to pick some of them up as bonus samples.

Offline Kiwi53

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #433 on: 02/01/2023 10:52 pm »
I halfway expect that a Muskonaut (possibly even Elon) will drive up to this sample dump in a Tesla branded Cybertruck-derived Mars Rover, hop out, scoop the sample tubes into a sample carrying box, then drive off in a cloud of Mars dust towards Gwynne Shotwell Base, laughing like a drain. All on camera, of course.

And all a synod (or more) before the MSR lander is due to arrive on Mars.

Edit: Speeling misteaks
« Last Edit: 02/01/2023 10:53 pm by Kiwi53 »

Offline whitelancer64

Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #434 on: 02/01/2023 11:15 pm »
I halfway expect that a Muskonaut (possibly even Elon) will drive up to this sample dump in a Tesla branded Cybertruck-derived Mars Rover, hop out, scoop the sample tubes into a sample carrying box, then drive off in a cloud of Mars dust towards Gwynne Shotwell Base, laughing like a drain. All on camera, of course.

And all a synod (or more) before the MSR lander is due to arrive on Mars.

Edit: Speeling misteaks

Definitely not. Introducing the possibility of human contamination of these samples really defeats the purpose.

Plus, the places that SpaceX are looking at on Mars for landing sites (mostly near the Erebus Montes) are approximately 7,000 kilometers away from Jezero Crater.
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Offline vjkane

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #435 on: 02/02/2023 01:37 am »
Don't forget, though, that this cache will almost certainly not be collected by the sample return mission.  It's a backup.  The sample return mission is more likely to get the next set, which will be the second copies of all this stuff plus a whole lot more.
I kinda hope that they'll send the helicopters to pick some of them up as bonus samples.
Not sure what happened to my previous reply...

If Percy makes it to the Midway area, it will be dozens of kilometers away from this current cache. Much too far away for helicopter retrieval.

Offline redliox

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #436 on: 02/02/2023 02:06 am »
If Percy makes it to the Midway area, it will be dozens of kilometers away from this current cache. Much too far away for helicopter retrieval.

What will they prioritize, outside of flat landing spot, in terms of retrieving samples?  The cache or Percy's collection?
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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #437 on: 02/02/2023 03:09 am »
If Percy makes it to the Midway area, it will be dozens of kilometers away from this current cache. Much too far away for helicopter retrieval.

What will they prioritize, outside of flat landing spot, in terms of retrieving samples?  The cache or Percy's collection?
nasa jpl engineers said if percy is working all earlier samples at three forks abandoned. curiously on research, i found they will return just 30 samples. this possibly tells out of 4 witness tubes remaining aboard percy, only one will be returned. see the sample container capacity below:

so priority is percy's astrobiology mission.....
« Last Edit: 02/02/2023 03:11 am by Chinakpradhan »

Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #438 on: 02/02/2023 03:14 am »
still many questions left about msr.....
1)what is this long no. "10464848-X" (X is seen 4,5,6 Or 7) on every sample tube as seen in cachecam images??? (as one below)
2) Ingenuity was launched at the belly of rover, so will the srh be deployed from belly or sample transfer arm will have a mechanism to put them on ground like insight putting it's heat probe, or a ramp to roll down??
3)What is the optimum temperature to be maintained in the igloo eka container of mav and is it maintained by energy from solar panels or RHUs as in night use for Mars exploration rovers??
4)When can we expect the start of manufacturing of MSR elements??
5)Who is making the RCS thrusters for Mars Ascent vehicle it's Lockheed or Northrop Grumman??
6)What's the next sampling location and which of the two streams will Percy chose on its extended voyage after leaving 3 forks??
7)Will there be a high gain antenna on Sample Recovery Helicopters or Zigbee be the only communications link with orbiters via lander??
8 ) Ingenuity has flown with a fix mass all the time. But is there any effect of one original mass flight and next original mass-sample tube mass flight, in case of SRH??
I mean every ounce is a bit difficult to fly on Mars so thought of it??
9) How does anyone or the sample retrieval lander know as to the time is right for launch and vector release as earthly launches are full of aborts??
10) will nasa add a miniature robot, tethered like russian Prop-m rover on solar panels as this tech has developed now by israel to clean dusty solar panels for mission longetivity???
https://twitter.com/newscientist/status/1620100987795955712
(sorry for long post)
« Last Edit: 02/02/2023 03:24 am by Chinakpradhan »


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