Author Topic: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission  (Read 211112 times)

Offline jbenton

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #400 on: 11/05/2022 10:25 pm »
Update from a few weeks ago (specifically, October 12th):

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2022/nasa-s-mars-mission-shields-up-for-tests

From the article:

Quote
Micrometeorites are a potential hazard for any space mission, including NASA’s Mars Sample Return. The tiny rocks can travel up to 50 miles per second. At these speeds, "even dust could cause damage to a spacecraft," said Bruno Sarli, NASA engineer at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland.

Sarli leads a team designing shields to protect NASA's Mars Earth Entry System from micrometeorites and space debris. Recently, he traveled to a NASA lab, designed to safely recreate dangerous impacts, to test the team’s shields and computer models.

Set far away from residents and surrounded by dunes, the Remote Hypervelocity Test Laboratory at NASA’s White Sands Test Facility in Las Cruces, New Mexico, has supported every human spaceflight program from the Space Shuttle to Artemis. The lab also supports testing for the International Space Station, Commercial Crew, and Commercial Resupply programs.

The article goes on to explain how the hypervelocity 2-stage light gas gun works, among other details. It also contains this video about the test:


Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #401 on: 11/17/2022 05:56 pm »

Offline matthewkantar

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #402 on: 11/17/2022 06:42 pm »
When I first saw the toss and light approach to the Mars ascent vehicle, it looked crazy. Since then I have seen the same exact launch mode over and over in Javelin antitank rocket videos from the Ukraine war.

Lockheed Martin version of the old saying; to a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail?

Offline deadman1204

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #403 on: 11/17/2022 08:35 pm »
So I'm unclear aobut the plan. Is Persy gonna just deliver the samples now? Does that mean no helicopters then?

Offline Blackstar

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #404 on: 11/17/2022 09:18 pm »
When I first saw the toss and light approach to the Mars ascent vehicle, it looked crazy. Since then I have seen the same exact launch mode over and over in Javelin antitank rocket videos from the Ukraine war.


It is very common. U.S. Navy warships use a hot launch technique to fire surface to air missiles out of their silos on destroyers and cruisers. But look at the Royal Navy's warships and they pop the missiles out cold, then ignite in the air. There's a great YouTube video showing the launch of a bunch of these, and they just bounce up with a "Foop!" and then they ignite.

Offline ccdengr

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #405 on: 11/17/2022 09:24 pm »
The helicopters are still a backup AFAIK.  For whatever reason they didn't include them in this video.

Offline edzieba

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #406 on: 11/21/2022 05:18 pm »
When I first saw the toss and light approach to the Mars ascent vehicle, it looked crazy. Since then I have seen the same exact launch mode over and over in Javelin antitank rocket videos from the Ukraine war.


It is very common. U.S. Navy warships use a hot launch technique to fire surface to air missiles out of their silos on destroyers and cruisers. But look at the Royal Navy's warships and they pop the missiles out cold, then ignite in the air. There's a great YouTube video showing the launch of a bunch of these, and they just bounce up with a "Foop!" and then they ignite.
"Hot launch" (ignite in silo) vs. "Cold Launch" (ignite after ejection). Normally this is done with launch tubes with a gas generator and piston (or discardable seals around the vehicle itself) providing the impetus to shove the vehicle clear, and the idea is generally to ensure that in the event of a dud, the armed dud is already thrown clear of the launch platform rather than sitting in the silo armed and fully fuelled.
That's not the case for the Ascent Vehicle (if the MAV is a dud, the mission is a failure regardless of whether the lander survives), so my guess is a mass trade: a couple of pistons and gas generators to shove the MAV to the correct attitude and get it clear of any lander debris generated by ignition probably weigh less than an erection system and reinforced thrust duct, or erection system and enclosed launch tube.
Seems risky, with tight timing and a single point of failure - but so did the Skycrane, and JPL have a history of pulling off Mighty Things.

Offline matthewkantar

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #407 on: 11/21/2022 05:41 pm »
Knocking on wood, it will be very silly looking if goes awry.

Offline deadman1204

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #408 on: 11/21/2022 06:22 pm »
When I first saw the toss and light approach to the Mars ascent vehicle, it looked crazy. Since then I have seen the same exact launch mode over and over in Javelin antitank rocket videos from the Ukraine war.


It is very common. U.S. Navy warships use a hot launch technique to fire surface to air missiles out of their silos on destroyers and cruisers. But look at the Royal Navy's warships and they pop the missiles out cold, then ignite in the air. There's a great YouTube video showing the launch of a bunch of these, and they just bounce up with a "Foop!" and then they ignite.
"Hot launch" (ignite in silo) vs. "Cold Launch" (ignite after ejection). Normally this is done with launch tubes with a gas generator and piston (or discardable seals around the vehicle itself) providing the impetus to shove the vehicle clear, and the idea is generally to ensure that in the event of a dud, the armed dud is already thrown clear of the launch platform rather than sitting in the silo armed and fully fuelled.
That's not the case for the Ascent Vehicle (if the MAV is a dud, the mission is a failure regardless of whether the lander survives), so my guess is a mass trade: a couple of pistons and gas generators to shove the MAV to the correct attitude and get it clear of any lander debris generated by ignition probably weigh less than an erection system and reinforced thrust duct, or erection system and enclosed launch tube.
Seems risky, with tight timing and a single point of failure - but so did the Skycrane, and JPL have a history of pulling off Mighty Things.
I thought I read awhile ago that they were looking at just using springs or something. Stored kinetic energy that is really simple.

Offline tolis

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #409 on: 11/21/2022 08:03 pm »
When I first saw the toss and light approach to the Mars ascent vehicle, it looked crazy. Since then I have seen the same exact launch mode over and over in Javelin antitank rocket videos from the Ukraine war.


It is very common. U.S. Navy warships use a hot launch technique to fire surface to air missiles out of their silos on destroyers and cruisers. But look at the Royal Navy's warships and they pop the missiles out cold, then ignite in the air. There's a great YouTube video showing the launch of a bunch of these, and they just bounce up with a "Foop!" and then they ignite.

Cold launch also used in some MANPADS models, I think. They come in all shapes and sizes.


Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #410 on: 11/22/2022 06:44 pm »
https://twitter.com/nasa/status/1595071698826510337

Quote
We're working with @ESA to plan one of the most ambitious feats ever attempted in space—bringing a Mars sample to Earth. The Mars Sample Return campaign could help answer a question rovers alone cannot: Was there life on Mars?

Here's how we plan to do it: https://mars.nasa.gov/msr/

Offline whitelancer64

Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #411 on: 11/22/2022 07:16 pm »
When I first saw the toss and light approach to the Mars ascent vehicle, it looked crazy. Since then I have seen the same exact launch mode over and over in Javelin antitank rocket videos from the Ukraine war.

Lockheed Martin version of the old saying; to a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail?

It eliminates the need for any kind of mechanism (and associated weight, engineering time, fabrication, testing, etc) to raise up the rocket from horizontal with a launch tower or anything similar.

"The best part is no part" - Elon Musk.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline whitelancer64

Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #412 on: 11/22/2022 07:23 pm »
So I'm unclear aobut the plan. Is Persy gonna just deliver the samples now? Does that mean no helicopters then?

My understanding is that Percy - if it is still operational by the time this lands - will bring over whatever samples it has on board. The helicopter(s) will go to the sample cache(s) and bring those back. If Percy, for whatever reason, cannot make it to the landing / launch site, then it will drop its remaining samples for a helicopter to pick up.

After the samples have been launched back to Earth, I would presume the helicopter(s) would remain with Percy to do aerial surveys / scouting for it.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline deadman1204

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #413 on: 11/22/2022 08:14 pm »
When I first saw the toss and light approach to the Mars ascent vehicle, it looked crazy. Since then I have seen the same exact launch mode over and over in Javelin antitank rocket videos from the Ukraine war.

Lockheed Martin version of the old saying; to a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail?

It eliminates the need for any kind of mechanism (and associated weight, engineering time, fabrication, testing, etc) to raise up the rocket from horizontal with a launch tower or anything similar.

"The best part is no part" - Elon Musk.
The idea behind this design isn't to simplify things. MSR design is primarily about minimizing risk.  The lander might not be stable when it lands, however its stuck wherever and however it lands. A leg could be on the edge of a big rock for example. If the rocket is attached to the lander when it lights, that force could push the lander to slide around, tilt it, even roll it in a worst case scenario - and any of these might cause serious problems for the rocket.

Tossing the rocket up before lighting removes this problem of the lander not being stable enough to launch a rocket.
« Last Edit: 11/22/2022 08:14 pm by deadman1204 »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #414 on: 11/22/2022 08:41 pm »
When I first saw the toss and light approach to the Mars ascent vehicle, it looked crazy. Since then I have seen the same exact launch mode over and over in Javelin antitank rocket videos from the Ukraine war.

Lockheed Martin version of the old saying; to a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail?

It eliminates the need for any kind of mechanism (and associated weight, engineering time, fabrication, testing, etc) to raise up the rocket from horizontal with a launch tower or anything similar.

"The best part is no part" - Elon Musk.
The idea behind this design isn't to simplify things. MSR design is primarily about minimizing risk.  The lander might not be stable when it lands, however its stuck wherever and however it lands. A leg could be on the edge of a big rock for example. If the rocket is attached to the lander when it lights, that force could push the lander to slide around, tilt it, even roll it in a worst case scenario - and any of these might cause serious problems for the rocket.

Tossing the rocket up before lighting removes this problem of the lander not being stable enough to launch a rocket.
Youre both right. Simplifying is a good heuristic for how to reduce risk and cost simultaneously.
« Last Edit: 11/22/2022 08:42 pm by Robotbeat »
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Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #415 on: 12/03/2022 06:59 am »
https://twitter.com/nasaastrobio/status/1598775729520451584

Quote
We’re planning one of our biggest feats ever – bringing Mars samples to Earth – and you can play a part.
 
@NASA is looking for your feedback on Mars Sample Return in a series of in-person meetings. Find details and updated meeting locations here:

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-invites-public-comment-on-plans-for-mars-sample-return-campaign

Quote
Nov 22, 2022
RELEASE 22-121

NASA Invites Public Comment on Plans for Mars Sample Return Campaign

Editor’s Note: This release was updated Nov. 30, to note that the location of the public meeting in Wendover, Utah, on Tuesday, Dec. 6, has changed. The time of the meeting remains the same.

Editor's Note: This release was updated on Nov. 23, to further clarify the virtual meetings link will not be active until about 15 minutes before the meetings.

NASA is seeking public comments on a draft environmental impact statement for the agency’s Mars Sample Return (MSR) campaign. Comments are due by Monday, Dec. 19.

Comments can be submitted online, through the mail, or through participation in a series of virtual and in-person meetings. Advanced registration for meeting options, including in-person meetings in Utah, is not required.

Two virtual meetings to discuss the Draft Programmatic Environmental Impact Statement for the campaign will take place on Wednesday, Nov. 30. The first begins at 1 p.m. MST, followed by a second opportunity at 6 p.m. MST. The WebEx link will be activated about 15 minutes before the events begin and will display “room cannot be found” until it is activated. Once live, it will include an option for real-time automated closed captioning. To access audio-only dial 510-210-8882, and use meeting number 901-525-785. Participate online at either time by joining the following link:

Mars Sample Return WebEx

The in-person meetings will be held at 6 p.m. MST on Tuesday, Dec. 6, at the Brinkman Service Club, 352 South Airport Way, Wendover, Utah, and on Wednesday, Dec. 7, at the Clark Planetarium, 110 S 400 W, Salt Lake City, Utah.

All public meetings will include a 15-minute presentation on the purpose of the meetings, the MSR campaign project schedule, opportunities for public involvement, a summary of the proposed action and alternatives, discussion of potential environmental impacts from the proposed action, and an overview of the programmatic approach to National Environmental Policy Act compliance in general, and NASA’s proposed action specifically. The in-person meetings also will include a 45-minute open house before the official public comment portion of the meeting.

Subject matter experts will be available on-site during the open house to answer questions from the public, and to discuss informational posters and distribute related materials about the draft statement and the proposed Mars Sample Return campaign. These materials are also available online.

NASA and ESA (European Space Agency) are planning to use robotic Mars orbiter and lander missions launched in 2027 and 2028 to retrieve samples of rocks and atmosphere being gathered by NASA’s Perseverance rover and return them to Earth. The samples of Mars material, securely isolated inside a robust Earth Entry System using a layered “container within a container” approach, could be brought to Earth in the early 2030s, landing notionally at the Utah Test and Training Range operated by the U.S. Air Force. The Earth Entry System would then be transported to a specialized MSR sample receiving facility.

NASA will consider all comments received during the PEIS public comment period in the subsequent development of the MSR Final Environmental Impact Statement.

In addition to receiving comments during the public meetings, comments may be sent to NASA in the following ways:

Federal e-Rulemaking Portal: Follow the online instructions for submitting comments and include Docket No. NASA-2022-0002. Please note that NASA will post all comments online without changes, including any personal information provided.

By mail to Steve Slaten, NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory, 4800 Oak Grove Drive, M/S: 180-801, Pasadena, CA 91109–8099

Additional information on the agency’s National Environmental Policy Act process and the proposed campaign is available online.

-end-

Image caption:

Quote
This illustration shows the concept of NASA’s Mars Sample Return mission to ferry to Earth samples collected from the Martian surface by NASA's Mars Perseverance rover.
Credits: NASA
« Last Edit: 12/03/2022 07:01 am by FutureSpaceTourist »

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #416 on: 12/03/2022 07:02 am »

Offline Conexion Espacial

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #417 on: 12/14/2022 12:22 pm »

Sample Recovery Helicopter Model Gets a Test
A model Sample Recovery Helicopter drives and positions itself over a sample tube during a test in the Mars Yard at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Southern California. Two Sample Recovery Helicopters are slated to fly to Mars as part of the Mars Sample Return campaign. NASA is developing the Sample Recovery Helicopters to serve as backups to the agency's Perseverance rover in transporting sample tubes to the Sample Retrieval Lander. These helicopters are follow-ons to NASA's Ingenuity Mars Helicopter, which arrived at the Red Planet in the belly of Perseverance in February 2021. The Sample Recovery Helicopters have wheels instead of feet, as well as a small manipulator arm with a two-fingered gripper capable of carrying precious sample tubes. Testing of the Sample Recovery Helicopters is ongoing. The testbed was made by AeroVironment Inc.
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Offline deadman1204

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #418 on: 12/14/2022 02:28 pm »

Sample Recovery Helicopter Model Gets a Test
A model Sample Recovery Helicopter drives and positions itself over a sample tube during a test in the Mars Yard at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Southern California. Two Sample Recovery Helicopters are slated to fly to Mars as part of the Mars Sample Return campaign. NASA is developing the Sample Recovery Helicopters to serve as backups to the agency's Perseverance rover in transporting sample tubes to the Sample Retrieval Lander. These helicopters are follow-ons to NASA's Ingenuity Mars Helicopter, which arrived at the Red Planet in the belly of Perseverance in February 2021. The Sample Recovery Helicopters have wheels instead of feet, as well as a small manipulator arm with a two-fingered gripper capable of carrying precious sample tubes. Testing of the Sample Recovery Helicopters is ongoing. The testbed was made by AeroVironment Inc.
Anyone know why its using wheels for feet?

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #419 on: 12/14/2022 05:07 pm »

Sample Recovery Helicopter Model Gets a Test
A model Sample Recovery Helicopter drives and positions itself over a sample tube during a test in the Mars Yard at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Southern California. Two Sample Recovery Helicopters are slated to fly to Mars as part of the Mars Sample Return campaign. NASA is developing the Sample Recovery Helicopters to serve as backups to the agency's Perseverance rover in transporting sample tubes to the Sample Retrieval Lander. These helicopters are follow-ons to NASA's Ingenuity Mars Helicopter, which arrived at the Red Planet in the belly of Perseverance in February 2021. The Sample Recovery Helicopters have wheels instead of feet, as well as a small manipulator arm with a two-fingered gripper capable of carrying precious sample tubes. Testing of the Sample Recovery Helicopters is ongoing. The testbed was made by AeroVironment Inc.
Anyone know why its using wheels for feet?
Guessing some of the wheels might be motorized for limited mobility with the helo drone on the ground to position the drone to retrieve sample tube.
« Last Edit: 12/14/2022 05:08 pm by Zed_Noir »

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