If I were in charge of sending crews to the Moon, Mars, or an asteroid, I’d want to include a trained mental health professional as part of the crew
This is why they will need windows, even if underground living is built on Mars. They also will need to get out in the open on little trips away from the base to explore, mine, etc. Plants in either underground greenhouses or above ground will help also.
There's an update on the story that triggered me to start this thread. The Russian scientist in Antarctica stabbed the other guy because he kept telling him the endings of books he was reading. ...
In future space missions, especially if people are expected to spend 3 years in a large tin can, the mission Commander will have to be more proactive in detecting and defusing this sort of behaviour. Life is going to be precarious enough on a long duration space mission, without factoring in random acts of violence due to psychological issues.
Send loners. You know, those people who are more at ease in the wilderness, than with other people. At least, that's what they called them before anything outside a tiny area deemed normal by self appointed personalty police was labeled autism spectrum disorder.
Any Mars settlement is almost certainly going to have a small ratio of females. This disproportion, itself, will be the source of tension and problems as the months tick by. In insular environments, venereal diseases also tend to be a problem.
Any Mars settlement is almost certainly going to have a small ratio of females. This disproportion, itself, will be the source of tension and problems as the months tick by.
About a thousand people have wintered over In Antarctica every year in the 70 since the IGY. There have been a handful of incidents, during that time (perhaps 4-5), including a suspicious death at the US south pole station. Compared to other risks it is not to be ignored but it is very small.
What do they do in Antarctica? Snow everywhere through the long cold winters? Seems like Mars will have a lot more work to do to keep people busy and occupied to avoid boredom.
Easy enough to put a big CDN on Mars caching most of the most popular internet content.For anything else, you just wait. Obviously real-time gaming or videoconferencing isn't possible (unless the other person is on Mars), but everything else is perfectly accessible, it's just on a small delay.If your Youtube show is published 22 minutes late, you're not gonna notice. It's not like you'd be sitting at your desk waiting: you'd just be pre-selecting content to download later (eg "when XYZ Youtube channel publishes a new video, download it and notify me when it's done").
While the isolation and confined space in places like Antarctica or a future Mars outpost can certainly impact one's mental health, I believe it's essential to consider other factors as well. It's not just the environment but also individual coping mechanisms, support systems, and overall mental well-being.
Ask the US Navy how they screen sailors for submarine duty. Boomers stay out at sea for months at a time without surfacing. Maybe someone on the forum was a submariner.
I suspect that for a long time the speed of light (optical or radio) bandwidth to Mars will be limited, and most data will be transferred on starships. Only a limited amount of new, first run content will be available on Mars, for most content the wait will be months or years. There may be serious disagreements whether to prioritize Bridgerton:Season 25, Die Hardest XV 3D, or Call of Duty:Bug Wars.
Boomers stay out at sea for months at a time without surfacing.
Quote from: Barley on 02/26/2022 09:09 pmI suspect that for a long time the speed of light (optical or radio) bandwidth to Mars will be limited, and most data will be transferred on starships. Only a limited amount of new, first run content will be available on Mars, for most content the wait will be months or years. There may be serious disagreements whether to prioritize Bridgerton:Season 25, Die Hardest XV 3D, or Call of Duty:Bug Wars.No. There will be a large data pipe
Quote from: RonM on 10/25/2018 03:37 amBoomers stay out at sea for months at a time without surfacing.I've only stayed out at sea for a few days at a time.
I spent 5 months in the Cascades last year with very little human contact, and I felt as normal as I ever did. (Shut up Johnny) They use to call people like that loners, until the Psych Police determined that everyone not fitting in their declared range of normal behavior suffered from disorders. You're going to lose a whole lot of the really exceptional people who can pull off jobs like this if you insist they fit some "expert's" safe profile.
We just want people who aren’t going to walk out an airlock and leave the door open.
Quote from: MickQ on 07/06/2023 09:11 pmWe just want people who aren’t going to walk out an airlock and leave the door open.It's easy to imagine an airlock failsafe mechanism.
I was alluding to the fact that some mentally unstable person may deliberately try to vent the habitat.
Quote from: JohnFornaro on 07/18/2023 02:20 pmQuote from: MickQ on 07/06/2023 09:11 pmWe just want people who aren’t going to walk out an airlock and leave the door open.It's easy to imagine an airlock failsafe mechanism.Yes and that's a good idea although it would require some careful thought
but Mars atmosphere could leak in.
The concept for astronauts on a Mars surface outpost seems pretty grim. Structures will eventually leak and either air goes out, but Mars atmosphere could leak in. Having super sensitive sensors for stankyMarsCO2 gas seems like an effective torture approach to bring every human to just wanna leave ASAP or probably very soon after throwing up in the space helmet the first or second time.Obviously astronauts will need a Neuralink to suppress all fears while on Mars. But I’m sure the thrill will be gone well before anyone gets to this point.
Then there's the problem of longing for blue skies, green grass, fresh air, waves washing up on the beach, etc. On the Moon it's just grey soil, black sky (at least there's the blue and white marble in the sky). On Mars its just red soil, pink sky. One of my museum guests suggested this: Provide a virtual reality room on the base where residents can 'view' puffy clouds, yellow flowers, etc. Put air nozzles around the room to inject the familiar odors of Earth (e.g. fresh-cut grass, sea mist). In effect, it would be a precursor to the Star Trek holodeck.
Let's talk about the mental health of our isolated outpost residents. Living in remote areas can be tough, and it's essential to look out for one another's well-being! Loneliness, limited resources, and distance from support networks can be challenging.We can make a difference by reaching out and checking on our outpost neighbors regularly. A simple chat or lending a helping hand can go a long way. And remember, if anyone is struggling, it's okay to encourage seeking professional help or connecting with mental health resources. Together, let's build a supportive and caring community that looks out for each other!
Quote from: Mr. Scott on 07/20/2023 03:36 amThe concept for astronauts on a Mars surface outpost seems pretty grim. Structures will eventually leak and either air goes out, but Mars atmosphere could leak in. Having super sensitive sensors for stankyMarsCO2 gas seems like an effective torture approach to bring every human to just wanna leave ASAP or probably very soon after throwing up in the space helmet the first or second time.That's not how positive pressure differences work.
The concept for astronauts on a Mars surface outpost seems pretty grim. Structures will eventually leak and either air goes out, but Mars atmosphere could leak in. Having super sensitive sensors for stankyMarsCO2 gas seems like an effective torture approach to bring every human to just wanna leave ASAP or probably very soon after throwing up in the space helmet the first or second time.
To add to this: the trick is to have a double-layer wall, and use vacuum pumps to recycle any (precious) air that leaks out. As long as the interstitial pressure in-between the double hull is kept less than the outside pressure, no air will be lost.
Quote from: Twark_Main on 07/31/2023 09:35 amTo add to this: the trick is to have a double-layer wall, and use vacuum pumps to recycle any (precious) air that leaks out. As long as the interstitial pressure in-between the double hull is kept less than the outside pressure, no air will be lost.I very much doubt that air will be precious on Mars. Nitrogen is abundant in the atmosphere and not hard to extract. In fact Nitrogen will be a byproduct as long as there is propellant ISRU working.Processing minerals will provide an excess of oxygen because many needed materials will be available as oxides. Even propellant ISRU provides excess ISRU.
Quote from: guckyfan on 08/03/2023 07:11 amQuote from: Twark_Main on 07/31/2023 09:35 amTo add to this: the trick is to have a double-layer wall, and use vacuum pumps to recycle any (precious) air that leaks out. As long as the interstitial pressure in-between the double hull is kept less than the outside pressure, no air will be lost.I very much doubt that air will be precious on Mars. Nitrogen is abundant in the atmosphere and not hard to extract. In fact Nitrogen will be a byproduct as long as there is propellant ISRU working.Processing minerals will provide an excess of oxygen because many needed materials will be available as oxides. Even propellant ISRU provides excess ISRU.If you prefer, replace the word "precious" with "costly."As deadman points out, one of the costlier elements is the part where you clean and purify the raw gas into human-rated breathing gas. This will probably exclude dirtier material streams, like mineral processing.
Quote from: Twark_Main on 08/10/2023 02:39 pmQuote from: guckyfan on 08/03/2023 07:11 amQuote from: Twark_Main on 07/31/2023 09:35 amTo add to this: the trick is to have a double-layer wall, and use vacuum pumps to recycle any (precious) air that leaks out. As long as the interstitial pressure in-between the double hull is kept less than the outside pressure, no air will be lost.I very much doubt that air will be precious on Mars. Nitrogen is abundant in the atmosphere and not hard to extract. In fact Nitrogen will be a byproduct as long as there is propellant ISRU working.Processing minerals will provide an excess of oxygen because many needed materials will be available as oxides. Even propellant ISRU provides excess ISRU.If you prefer, replace the word "precious" with "costly."As deadman points out, one of the costlier elements is the part where you clean and purify the raw gas into human-rated breathing gas. This will probably exclude dirtier material streams, like mineral processing. In fact, near-ready medical grade oxygen will be produced in huge quantities in the production of methane, rocket fuel. In the Sabatier reaction, one of the products is pure water, the oxygen obtained during its electrolysis will only need to be dried, for example, to freeze out water vapor. Nitrogen at the exit from the cryogenic separator of the Martian atmosphere will also be quite pure.
Quote from: Valerij Zhilisky on 09/07/2023 10:02 pmQuote from: Twark_Main on 08/10/2023 02:39 pmIf you prefer, replace the word "precious" with "costly."As deadman points out, one of the costlier elements is the part where you clean and purify the raw gas into human-rated breathing gas. This will probably exclude dirtier material streams, like mineral processing. In fact, near-ready medical grade oxygen will be produced in huge quantities in the production of methane, rocket fuel. In the Sabatier reaction, one of the products is pure water, the oxygen obtained during its electrolysis will only need to be dried, for example, to freeze out water vapor. Nitrogen at the exit from the cryogenic separator of the Martian atmosphere will also be quite pure. "Near-ready" and "ready" are not the same thing.The purity of the end products is a function of the purity of input products.Those input products (Martian water and Martian CO2) are only going to be purified enough to balance extending the lifetime of the ISRU equipment with the cost and complexity of the purification process itself.So no, I doubt the oxygen coming out the the ISRU generator will automatically be "medical grade."
Quote from: Twark_Main on 08/10/2023 02:39 pmIf you prefer, replace the word "precious" with "costly."As deadman points out, one of the costlier elements is the part where you clean and purify the raw gas into human-rated breathing gas. This will probably exclude dirtier material streams, like mineral processing. In fact, near-ready medical grade oxygen will be produced in huge quantities in the production of methane, rocket fuel. In the Sabatier reaction, one of the products is pure water, the oxygen obtained during its electrolysis will only need to be dried, for example, to freeze out water vapor. Nitrogen at the exit from the cryogenic separator of the Martian atmosphere will also be quite pure.
If you prefer, replace the word "precious" with "costly."As deadman points out, one of the costlier elements is the part where you clean and purify the raw gas into human-rated breathing gas. This will probably exclude dirtier material streams, like mineral processing.
Well, knowing that the air you are breathing is of the purest quality should contribute positively to mental health. Works for me.
The solution is to send larger crews.
Quote from: Twark_Main on 09/08/2023 05:24 pmQuote from: Valerij Zhilisky on 09/07/2023 10:02 pmQuote from: Twark_Main on 08/10/2023 02:39 pmIf you prefer, replace the word "precious" with "costly."As deadman points out, one of the costlier elements is the part where you clean and purify the raw gas into human-rated breathing gas. This will probably exclude dirtier material streams, like mineral processing. In fact, near-ready medical grade oxygen will be produced in huge quantities in the production of methane, rocket fuel. In the Sabatier reaction, one of the products is pure water, the oxygen obtained during its electrolysis will only need to be dried, for example, to freeze out water vapor. Nitrogen at the exit from the cryogenic separator of the Martian atmosphere will also be quite pure. "Near-ready" and "ready" are not the same thing.The purity of the end products is a function of the purity of input products.Those input products (Martian water and Martian CO2) are only going to be purified enough to balance extending the lifetime of the ISRU equipment with the cost and complexity of the purification process itself.So no, I doubt the oxygen coming out the the ISRU generator will automatically be "medical grade." In principle you are right, but in this particular case you are wrong. In the Sabatier reaction we use hydrogen obtained from Martian water and the compressed Martian atmosphere (almost pure carbon dioxide) to produce methane. We are not interested in the problem of methane extraction in this particular case, we are interested in the by-product of the reaction - liquid water, which is easily separated from the mixture of gases. A small amount of dissolved carbon dioxide remains in the water. In the next step, this almost chemically pure water is electrolyzed and separated into oxygen gas and hydrogen. The hydrogen is returned to the Sabatier reactor, the oxygen is liquefied. When the oxygen is liquefied, it cools and the impurities of water vapor and carbon dioxide in it are separated, so the output is pure liquid oxygen of medical quality, which can be used to replenish the atmosphere of the living modules. Thus, if we do not mix water from the Sabatier reactor with water extracted on Mars, and use a separate process line to process water from the reactor, we get a large amount of pure medical-grade liquid oxygen.
Quote from: Valerij Zhilisky on 09/09/2023 05:31 amQuote from: Twark_Main on 09/08/2023 05:24 pmQuote from: Valerij Zhilisky on 09/07/2023 10:02 pmQuote from: Twark_Main on 08/10/2023 02:39 pmIf you prefer, replace the word "precious" with "costly."As deadman points out, one of the costlier elements is the part where you clean and purify the raw gas into human-rated breathing gas. This will probably exclude dirtier material streams, like mineral processing. In fact, near-ready medical grade oxygen will be produced in huge quantities in the production of methane, rocket fuel. In the Sabatier reaction, one of the products is pure water, the oxygen obtained during its electrolysis will only need to be dried, for example, to freeze out water vapor. Nitrogen at the exit from the cryogenic separator of the Martian atmosphere will also be quite pure. "Near-ready" and "ready" are not the same thing.The purity of the end products is a function of the purity of input products.Those input products (Martian water and Martian CO2) are only going to be purified enough to balance extending the lifetime of the ISRU equipment with the cost and complexity of the purification process itself.So no, I doubt the oxygen coming out the the ISRU generator will automatically be "medical grade." In principle you are right, but in this particular case you are wrong. In the Sabatier reaction we use hydrogen obtained from Martian water and the compressed Martian atmosphere (almost pure carbon dioxide) to produce methane. We are not interested in the problem of methane extraction in this particular case, we are interested in the by-product of the reaction - liquid water, which is easily separated from the mixture of gases. A small amount of dissolved carbon dioxide remains in the water. In the next step, this almost chemically pure water is electrolyzed and separated into oxygen gas and hydrogen. The hydrogen is returned to the Sabatier reactor, the oxygen is liquefied. When the oxygen is liquefied, it cools and the impurities of water vapor and carbon dioxide in it are separated, so the output is pure liquid oxygen of medical quality, which can be used to replenish the atmosphere of the living modules. Thus, if we do not mix water from the Sabatier reactor with water extracted on Mars, and use a separate process line to process water from the reactor, we get a large amount of pure medical-grade liquid oxygen. Your leap from "almost" to "pure medical-grade" is the problem, of course.I can have "almost" pure air, but if it's 99.9% air and 0.1% carbon monoxide you're going to have a bad time... They will defiinitely 100% be scrubbing, purifying, and testing the air before introducing it inside the habitat. To do otherwise would be an easily avoidable error (malfeasance? negligence?) on the same level as the Titan implosion. "Don't do nuthin' dumb."
IF the procedure produces 0.1% CO, thats super bad for anyone involved. Unless its 99.9999999% perfect, everyone will suffocate and die from CO poisoning.
I think people don't realize just how much carbon monoxide is made by, like, candles and a normal wood fire which folks breath the fumes of. Carbon monoxide isn't great for you, and it's a real health problem with indoor stoves, but it's also not like a parts-per-billion-will-kill-you thing.
Quote from: Robotbeat on 06/25/2024 03:18 amI think people don't realize just how much carbon monoxide is made by, like, candles and a normal wood fire which folks breath the fumes of. Carbon monoxide isn't great for you, and it's a real health problem with indoor stoves, but it's also not like a parts-per-billion-will-kill-you thing.Incomplete combustion isn't a big deal on earth, because you have an entire planet of air to exchange with. On mars have don't. You only have the air in the can, and if the o2 machine is making CO, the only place for it to go is your lungs.
Quote from: deadman1204 on 06/25/2024 09:34 pmQuote from: Robotbeat on 06/25/2024 03:18 amI think people don't realize just how much carbon monoxide is made by, like, candles and a normal wood fire which folks breath the fumes of. Carbon monoxide isn't great for you, and it's a real health problem with indoor stoves, but it's also not like a parts-per-billion-will-kill-you thing.Incomplete combustion isn't a big deal on earth, because you have an entire planet of air to exchange with. On mars have don't. You only have the air in the can, and if the o2 machine is making CO, the only place for it to go is your lungs.There are such things as CO filters and alarms
Quote from: Dalhousie on 06/26/2024 05:41 amQuote from: deadman1204 on 06/25/2024 09:34 pmQuote from: Robotbeat on 06/25/2024 03:18 amI think people don't realize just how much carbon monoxide is made by, like, candles and a normal wood fire which folks breath the fumes of. Carbon monoxide isn't great for you, and it's a real health problem with indoor stoves, but it's also not like a parts-per-billion-will-kill-you thing.Incomplete combustion isn't a big deal on earth, because you have an entire planet of air to exchange with. On mars have don't. You only have the air in the can, and if the o2 machine is making CO, the only place for it to go is your lungs.There are such things as CO filters and alarmsYes. My original point is precisely that you do need such controls, filters, and sensors in order to make "medical grade" oxygen for the internal atmosphere.Anyway, back to the topic of Mental Health of isolated outpost residents...Does anyone have a citation for the British Arctic (Antarctic?) base that O'Neill mentions?
