Author Topic: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)  (Read 354451 times)

Offline JCRM

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
  • Great Britain
  • Liked: 323
  • Likes Given: 458
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #800 on: 07/16/2023 07:21 pm »
More about netzero rather than space applications but signs of life are always encouraging:



The netzero stuff gains flight experience of heat exchangers, so I'm all for it.

... but s a speaker this chap is almost as hard to listen to as Elon Musk, and has the whole British film spiv thing going on.

Offline JCRM

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
  • Great Britain
  • Liked: 323
  • Likes Given: 458
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #801 on: 07/16/2023 08:50 pm »
Quote
Mark Thomas, Reaction’s chief executive, said its focus was developing hypersonics for the military. It is part of a programme with Rolls-Royce and the Ministry of Defence that aims to fly a demonstrator by the middle of the decade. “I am confident we will manage that,” Thomas said. The civilian market is less of a priority. “It is certainly something we think about, but it is very, very difficult. Most of our efforts are now focused on military applications, then other commercial applications for the cooling technology.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/skys-the-limit-for-hypersonic-air-travel-0nqwn2j0h

Offline t43562

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 298
  • UK
  • Liked: 164
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #802 on: 07/17/2023 12:11 pm »
Quote
Mark Thomas, Reaction’s chief executive, said its focus was developing hypersonics for the military. It is part of a programme with Rolls-Royce and the Ministry of Defence that aims to fly a demonstrator by the middle of the decade. “I am confident we will manage that,” Thomas said. The civilian market is less of a priority. “It is certainly something we think about, but it is very, very difficult. Most of our efforts are now focused on military applications, then other commercial applications for the cooling technology.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/skys-the-limit-for-hypersonic-air-travel-0nqwn2j0h

I don't love the "military" focus but I can understand why - there's nobody handing out money for anything else. Also, as he says in reverse, it is probably a lot easier.  Through this they may up the TRLs on a lot of the things they also need for the civil side.

Offline JCRM

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
  • Great Britain
  • Liked: 323
  • Likes Given: 458
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #803 on: 07/18/2023 08:54 am »
Quote
Mark Thomas, Reaction’s chief executive, said its focus was developing hypersonics for the military. It is part of a programme with Rolls-Royce and the Ministry of Defence that aims to fly a demonstrator by the middle of the decade. “I am confident we will manage that,” Thomas said. The civilian market is less of a priority. “It is certainly something we think about, but it is very, very difficult. Most of our efforts are now focused on military applications, then other commercial applications for the cooling technology.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/skys-the-limit-for-hypersonic-air-travel-0nqwn2j0h

I don't love the "military" focus but I can understand why - there's nobody handing out money for anything else. Also, as he says in reverse, it is probably a lot easier.  Through this they may up the TRLs on a lot of the things they also need for the civil side.

what's more, having that mid-decade development timescale is likely to impact their capacity to focus on other issues, although I'm sure they'll want to dual-purpose as much of the work as they can

Offline t43562

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 298
  • UK
  • Liked: 164
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #804 on: 07/18/2023 09:32 am »
what's more, having that mid-decade development timescale is likely to impact their capacity to focus on other issues, although I'm sure they'll want to dual-purpose as much of the work as they can

"middle of the decade" is a cute way of saying 2025/2026 and that does seem fairly close.  I could get quite excited at the thought of anything they made being in the air in a couple of years.   I do feel a bit nervous given that BAE has had a long string of UAV prototypes that don't seem on the surface to have resulted in anything lasting. From the little ones like those flapless designs (Demon, MAGMA) up thought the propellered Mantis  and then Taranis....lots of work and yet it's Turkish UCAS that are being used in Ukraine.

Offline JCRM

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
  • Great Britain
  • Liked: 323
  • Likes Given: 458
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #805 on: 07/18/2023 06:37 pm »


"middle of the decade" is a cute way of saying 2025/2026
Implying 2025/2026, but not being wrong for 2027, and 2028/2029 technically count, and any time in 2030 isn't technically wrong.

Offline JCRM

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
  • Great Britain
  • Liked: 323
  • Likes Given: 458
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #806 on: 07/26/2023 12:28 pm »
Quote from: attached
Synergetic Air Breathing Rocket Engine (SABRE) Programme Evaluation Report 2022

Quote from: attached
Funding for the SABRE and SSTO launch vehicle concept has largely been through private equity, supplemented by European Space Agency (ESA) contracts in recent years. However, SABRE gained ministerial attention, and the economic case for UKSA support for SABRE development began in 2012, with funding first ear-marked in 2013. The SABRE Programme was ultimately awarded a grant of £50M over 48 months in 2015 following a successful European Commission State Aid Decision.1 This grant between RE and the UKSA was, at the time, the largest value grant to a single entity in the Agency’s history.

Planned SABRE development is divided into four Phases. The focus of the grant awarded in
2015 was Phase 3 (Design and Demonstration), building on the successful development and demonstration of key technologies in the previous Phases 1 and 2 (Engine Technology
Demonstration Programme). Phase 4 (Design and Development) is planned to evolve SABRE based on Phase 3 demonstration testing, complete the engine certification, and then lead to Phase 5 (Engine Production).

As proposed in 2015, Phase 3 was divided into four tasks, two of which were to be funded in-part by the £50M UKSA grant:
• Phase 3a – System Definition and Requirements (funded by ESA and RE, completed Q1 2017)
• Phase 3b – System Preliminary Definition (£10,317,760 from UKSA)
• Phase 3c – System Detailed Definition (£39,682,240 from UKSA GFA)
• Phase 3d – Demonstration Engine Manufacture

Following completion of SABRE Engine Level System Requirements Review (SRR) in December 2016 through Q1 of 2017, RE and their various stakeholders and funding sources opted to realign the programme with a focus on advancing the design of the air-breathing engine technology demonstrator through a dedicated ground test initiative called DEMO-A in preparation for testing of the integrated DEMO-A Engine by the end of 2019. This realignment resulted in a modified grant agreement aimed at reducing future design risks and which was approved in 2017.

Due to delays in SABRE technical development and issues with test facility readiness, the DEMO-A test was not achieved in the time period covered by the SABRE Programme grant. Although not all the original project objectives were achieved, considerable progress has been made in the design and manufacture of components and facilities needed.

Quote from: attached
RE’s original SABRE concept envisioned the rocket engine development in parallel with the nacelle and air-breathing core. It would be highly integrated with the air-breathing core and sub-contracted to an experienced rocket engine manufacturer. However, RE’s most recent design [SABRE 4] separates the rocket engine development from the integrated whole. The rocket engine would be purchased or developed separately and assembled with the air breathing core during final integration and test.

Quote from: attached
The programme as planned in 2017 was realigned into 19 projects within the following key elements:

• SABRE Integrated Design
• Vehicle Studies
• Technology Demonstrators (at subsystem level) including Test Facilities
• A series of Technology Development Projects (enabling Technologies)

Phase 3b was planned to be concluded at a SABRE Intermediate Key Point (IKP) review in mid-2018. Successful execution of the following activities was a stated pre-requisite for holding the IKP:

• DEMO-A PDR conclusion
• Results of the Test facility design review
• Results of heat exchanger technology development programme (HTX)
• Preliminary studies of the DEMO-N (design and develop a Nacelle demonstrator)
• Preliminary studies of the DEMO-R (design and develop a staged combustion rocket
engine demonstrator)
• Continuation of the technology development programmes required for the SABRE engine

Schedule details for Phases 3c and 3d were not presented; Phase 3 was planned to culminate in the SABRE CDR in late 2026. Phase 4 was planned to consist of test integration, production readiness, and the beginning of engine production, completing in late 2033.
Quote from: attached
For the HTX Programme, RE reports having 300 suppliers and spending £7.5m externally; 90% of this spending was within the UK. For the other SABRE programmes, RE reports having 318 suppliers and has spent £20m externally; 65% of this spending was within the UK.

Quote from: attached
ESA are generally supportive of SABRE and RE, with the recent and current Director-General regularly and publicly presenting SABRE as an innovative future launch option. As a result of successful grant activities, in 2020 the Director-General of ESA provided a letter-of-support detailing cross ESA support for the SABRE Programme.
Quote from: attached
[In France,] Beyond CNES, RE also has a growing relationship with a major European launch company, which has furthered its interest and engagement in both RE and SABRE. The companies signed an MoU in 2018 and have begun to collaborate on:

• Component Design/Manufacture for the SABRE Programme
• Reusable Rocket Engine Technology Development
• Application Studies involving SABRE-Powered Launch Concepts
• Hardware Test and Development
• Hydrogen Handling and Storage
• Business Development - including Industry Positioning and Funding
• Skills Development


Quote from: attached
The Italian Space Agency (ASI) has also shown interest in initiating collaboration and funding focused
on a SABRE-Powered Launch Vehicle.




Offline jdon759

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 120
  • Liked: 109
  • Likes Given: 108
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #807 on: 07/28/2023 01:37 am »
What is HX3 for?  Is it heating or cooling the preburner exhaust?  And why?

Also, I see only 3 HX systems in the latest diagram, yet HX4 still exists.  Has one of the original 4 heat exchangers been excised without renaming the others, or is it simply not shown?
Where would we be today if our forefathers hadn't dreamt of where they'd be tomorrow?  (For better and worse)

Offline russianhalo117

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8791
  • Liked: 4712
  • Likes Given: 768
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #808 on: 07/28/2023 02:20 am »
What is HX3 for?  Is it heating or cooling the preburner exhaust?  And why?

Also, I see only 3 HX systems in the latest diagram, yet HX4 still exists.  Has one of the original 4 heat exchangers been excised without renaming the others, or is it simply not shown?
The  Synergetic_Air-Breathing_Rocket_Engine__SABRE__Programme_Evaluation_Report_2022.pdf graphic is for the Simplified SABRE Cycle NOT the full original SABRE Cycle.

Offline lkm

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 541
  • Liked: 117
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #809 on: 07/28/2023 06:10 pm »
What is HX3 for?  Is it heating or cooling the preburner exhaust?  And why?

Also, I see only 3 HX systems in the latest diagram, yet HX4 still exists.  Has one of the original 4 heat exchangers been excised without renaming the others, or is it simply not shown?

HX3 heats the helium loop from the pre cooler so that the turbine sees the same input temperature regardless of the air stagnation temperature. i.e it works hard at take off but does very little at Mach 5.
The pre cooler while shown as one HX is actually HX1 and HX2 as the max temperature of the pre cooler has to be kept lower for materials reasons than the max air stagnation temperature so HX2 operates at a higher capacity ratio when required keeping the helium loop below 1000K.

Offline JCRM

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
  • Great Britain
  • Liked: 323
  • Likes Given: 458
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #810 on: 08/07/2023 04:03 am »
What is HX3 for?  Is it heating or cooling the preburner exhaust?  And why?

Also, I see only 3 HX systems in the latest diagram, yet HX4 still exists.  Has one of the original 4 heat exchangers been excised without renaming the others, or is it simply not shown?

The pre-cooler is HX1 and HX2. The frost control went between them. By SABRE 3.0 it had been reduced to a single (or at least each module had) unit with two inlets and a single outlet.

HX3 does cool the pre-burner exhaust, but only as a side effect of further heating the helium coming out of the pre-cooler in order to drive turbo machinery. Mechanical energy isn't extracted from the pre-burner exhaust directly.

The pre-burner is used to both top up the heat absorbed from the pre-cooler, and to provide throttle control -- it's more easily turn-off-and-on-able
« Last Edit: 08/09/2023 10:37 am by JCRM »

Offline t43562

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 298
  • UK
  • Liked: 164
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #811 on: 08/22/2023 03:01 pm »
https://reactionengines.co.uk/reaction-chosen-for-high-speed-transportation-concepts/

Quote
    Reaction Engines has been awarded funding to further a U.K./U.S. collaboration under the UK Space Agency’s International Bilateral Fund.
    Reaction Engines has chosen Virgin Galactic as the airframe partner for this project.
    This funding will enable research and development for horizontal launch vehicle concepts utilising air-breathing, hypersonic propulsion technology.
    The funding programme supports UK ambitions to become a science superpower and build international collaboration to develop innovative technologies.

and

Quote
Reaction Engines has chosen to work with Virgin Galactic on this project. Virgin Galactic’s unique, reusable, suborbital spaceflight system allows them to fly aircraft to the boundary between air and space. After extensive development, Virgin Galactic recently began commercial operations with monthly flights to space for private astronaut and research customers.

Under the planned bilateral activity, the U.K. and U.S. Companies will explore the combination of their capabilities, potential use-cases, and development paths. Neither Virgin Galactic or Reaction Engines are strangers to the benefits of strong U.S. and U.K. collaboration and this opportunity to engage is in step with Reaction’s strategic mission of developing hypersonic and space access solutions, by harnessing the allied capabilities and a shared vision of the future. This joint undertaking, as supported by the UKSA, elevates this mission to the global stage and has the potential to set the course for future collaboration.

So it sounds like Virgin Galactic might be able to provide/design some sort of suitable testbed.
« Last Edit: 08/22/2023 03:06 pm by t43562 »

Offline Asteroza

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2888
  • Liked: 1107
  • Likes Given: 33
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #812 on: 08/23/2023 12:44 am »
https://reactionengines.co.uk/reaction-chosen-for-high-speed-transportation-concepts/

Quote
    Reaction Engines has been awarded funding to further a U.K./U.S. collaboration under the UK Space Agency’s International Bilateral Fund.
    Reaction Engines has chosen Virgin Galactic as the airframe partner for this project.
    This funding will enable research and development for horizontal launch vehicle concepts utilising air-breathing, hypersonic propulsion technology.
    The funding programme supports UK ambitions to become a science superpower and build international collaboration to develop innovative technologies.

and

Quote
Reaction Engines has chosen to work with Virgin Galactic on this project. Virgin Galactic’s unique, reusable, suborbital spaceflight system allows them to fly aircraft to the boundary between air and space. After extensive development, Virgin Galactic recently began commercial operations with monthly flights to space for private astronaut and research customers.

Under the planned bilateral activity, the U.K. and U.S. Companies will explore the combination of their capabilities, potential use-cases, and development paths. Neither Virgin Galactic or Reaction Engines are strangers to the benefits of strong U.S. and U.K. collaboration and this opportunity to engage is in step with Reaction’s strategic mission of developing hypersonic and space access solutions, by harnessing the allied capabilities and a shared vision of the future. This joint undertaking, as supported by the UKSA, elevates this mission to the global stage and has the potential to set the course for future collaboration.

So it sounds like Virgin Galactic might be able to provide/design some sort of suitable testbed.

Wait, so essentially REL is farming out NTV vehicle work to VG, which actually means farming out to The Spaceship Company, aka Scaled Composites?

Offline t43562

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 298
  • UK
  • Liked: 164
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #813 on: 08/23/2023 07:40 am »
So it sounds like Virgin Galactic might be able to provide/design some sort of suitable testbed.

Wait, so essentially REL is farming out NTV vehicle work to VG, which actually means farming out to The Spaceship Company, aka Scaled Composites?
I admit I was speculating totally. It could be "just another TSTO study" of the kind that REL has done with CNES and the AFRL and on its own perhaps.   There's nothing wrong with that obviously.

Offline JCRM

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
  • Great Britain
  • Liked: 323
  • Likes Given: 458
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #814 on: 08/23/2023 08:44 am »

I admit I was speculating totally. It could be "just another TSTO study" of the kind that REL has done with CNES and the AFRL and on its own perhaps.   There's nothing wrong with that obviously.

At this "phase 1" it is just another study, but this time with an airframer.

There's a whole bunch of companies sharing just 2.1 million, with none of them receiving more than 75k

Offline john smith 19

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10372
  • Everyplaceelse
  • Liked: 2445
  • Likes Given: 13639
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #815 on: 08/25/2023 05:55 am »

At this "phase 1" it is just another study, but this time with an airframer.

There's a whole bunch of companies sharing just 2.1 million, with none of them receiving more than 75k
True, and they already supposedly have an airframe partner in BAE, as having one was a condition of the loan HMG gave them. In theory they could have gone with any member of the Typhoon consortium but I'd bet HMG gave pretty broad hints to partner with the so-called "National champion," :(.
Its hard to say that BAE have contributed to the association, other than appearing to use Reaction as a training ground for their staff, rather like LM did with the X33 programme.  :(

Of course unlike BAE VG have developed a supersonic airframe without a cost plus govt contract backing them more recently than the turn of the century.

Access to people with more aerodynamics experience has sharpened things up for Reaction over the years

For example the "pen nib" tail that started appearing with their collaboration with CNES. More attention to plume phenomena working with NASA and so on.

Airframe experience is important if they want a real shot at building the Hypersonic Test Bed (and getting it flying). TBH though there is no airframer with actual experience of the materials they want to use, although VG has TPS experience. The challeng will be to leverage that without ITAR contamination. :(

A key issue here is transonic drag reduction.

Decades ago papers at Cranfield noted you can area-rule a fuselage by reshaping the wing root, rather than the fueslage, so maintaing the internal diameter. While the choice makes no conceptual difference the practical implications for a vehicle designed to carry freight are quite important as that "waisting" sets the maximum width for whatever kind of pallets or containers you want to use.

The challenge is to ensure the fuel (and associated tank mass) saved is not lost to the additional structure to do so.

 This ideally requires a design built, not to the guidlines of Pradtl's first paper but his later one of 1933, which optimises for mass (it increases wingspan about 11% but lowers the expected mass, using the assumptions in the paper, so the total wing mass works out lower).
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline JCRM

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
  • Great Britain
  • Liked: 323
  • Likes Given: 458
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #816 on: 09/06/2023 10:20 am »
Quote
Alongside the RACHEL initiative, the Liquid Hydrogen Gas Turbine (LH2GT) project, which has received £31.4 million of UK Government and project partner (Rolls-Royce, Reaction Engines, Manufacturing Technology Centre, Cranfield University, University of Oxford, University College London, Heathrow Airport & Easy Jet) funding, will develop technologies needed to take cryogenic hydrogen from a storage tank, condition it, and deliver it to the combustor in a hydrogen-burning gas turbine.
https://reactionengines.co.uk/rachel-and-lh2gt/

Offline JCRM

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
  • Great Britain
  • Liked: 323
  • Likes Given: 458
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #817 on: 09/12/2023 11:24 am »
Reaction have updated their HVX factsheet

https://reactionengines.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Reaction-Engines-Revolutionising-the-Future-of-Hypersonics.pdf

Quote from: above
HVX’s immediate objective is to rapidly mature technologies which can deliver a step-change reduction in the cost of developing a reusable, affordable hypersonic air vehicle. Reaction Engines’ innovative thermal management and SABRE combined-cycle engine technologies are key foundations for the programme. In combination with Rolls-Royce’s world-beating gas turbine technology and ability to design and integrate complex systems and products, this brings a formidable capability to take on the challenging problems inherent with hypersonic flight.

With the ground test campaign well underway, the HVX Programme is providing a unique opportunity to raise the UK’s profile in developing skills and technology in this fast-evolving area.

Quote from: hyperlink
Leveraging adjacent hypersonic technologies to other markets, such as responsive space launch and atmospheric flight. As Space becomes a more contested domain, it is important that the UK and its allies can respond rapidly to real time events by a) integrating a payload, b) mobilising and c) launching, all in a matter of hours. A reusable advanced air-breathing launch system will make this possible.

With the New Space Economy booming, there is demand for reliable and sustainable launch vehicles, particularly to enable space-based solar power and in-orbit manufacturing.
Hypersonic technologies are providing this opportunity to enable future markets, driving dual-use capabilities and growing UK economic prosperity, whilst bolstering UK resilience and improving the UK’s ability to prevent and respond to risks.

(Attached, a concept for a reusable advanced air-breathing launch system potentially derived from HVX technologies)
« Last Edit: 09/21/2023 08:29 am by JCRM »

Offline Asteroza

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2888
  • Liked: 1107
  • Likes Given: 33
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #818 on: 09/14/2023 11:19 pm »
Wow, HVX is now rather, um, conventional...

Offline john smith 19

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10372
  • Everyplaceelse
  • Liked: 2445
  • Likes Given: 13639
Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (7)
« Reply #819 on: 09/15/2023 06:09 am »
Wow, HVX is now rather, um, conventional...
You mean in the sense that it's a shape that might attract funding from people like the USAFRL or CNES?

HVX is designed for military use, and to be manufacturable.

The customer seems fairly well motivated to make this an actual flight vehicle.

As always the devils in the details, specifically how well you leverage the design of the reusable parts to simplify the Stg 2 while maintaining orbital accuracy in altitude, speed and angle.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1