Vulcan SMART Reuse

[edzieba]

Given they are testing separate engine pod may not have HIAD. Really don't won't to spend money on HIAD if separation is in doubt.

Development process is likely to follow F9R and Electron step by step approach.

And that right there is why they are where they are.

Someone who's acting like their livelihood depends on moving fast (aka "urgency") - that's exactly what they don't do.  Even for something as limited as SMART, they assume separation can be made to work, so absolutely develo.amd install HIAD even before separation is proven.

Based on your comment SpaceX should've put legs on first F9 V1.1. Catch SS booster on last flight.

No, you're taking my statement to an absurd (as usual) so you can argue with a strawman.

There's a difference between putting the legs on as soon as they're ready (even before reentry is proven) to holding the first flight until all pieces (including legs) are ready.

Holding back HIAD until separation is proven, "to save money" is not even financially responsible, unless your planning horizon is only end-of-quarter.

Why is holding off on installing legs until EDL is demonstrated reasonable, but holding back the decelerator until separation is demonstrated it's unreasonable? HIAD has already had a demonstrator flight, so a repeat adds cost (and schedule) that could be skipped to move faster towards their actual test objective.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

Fare well, fairing.

Is there a pathway for recovering fairings?
Are they expensive enough to make it attractive?
I'm thinking the first step would be instrumenting fairings to determine just what forces they sustain on the way down.

https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/1844754384250425389

Yes. Engines first. They are much more valuable. After that, we’ll start working our way down the list

[StraumliBlight]

Yes. Engines first. They are much more valuable. After that, we’ll start working our way down the list

The same response as from his reddit AMA.

Yes. Fortunately or unfortunately our fairing cost is so much lower that it is no longer at the top of the reuse list. Maybe later.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

@torybruno Did you gather enough environmental data on Cert-2 to proceed with SMART CDR?
(I am on old airborne instrumentation geek)

https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/1845040470558183754

Yes. Lots of data collected. Booster fly out trajectory was nominal (so representative)

[FutureSpaceTourist]

Hey @torybruno is SMART reuse still on the table?

https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/1845912907789353465

Yes. Actively in work. CDR in a couple of months

[jstrotha0975]

What is CDR?

[TrevorMonty]

What is CDR?

Critical Design Review. If it passes this they move to build.

[StraumliBlight]

High Capacity, Large Scale Inflatable Fabrication and Test awarded to Airborne Systems North America [Oct 23]

This action is for a new CPFF Task Order under Track A of the Multiple Award IAD IDIQ Contract titled “High Capacity Large Scale Inflatable Torus Fabrication and Test.” The total estimated price of the proposed task order is $312,000 and the estimated period of performance, inclusive of options, is 75 calendar days after Task Order Award (TOA).

The efforts under the new task will continue the research and development (R&D) support required by the Vulcan Engine Recovery Aeroshell (VERA) project led by NASA Langley Research Center for the development and use of a 10m diameter aeroshell.

Some other VERA documents:
 • Annex 2 [Sep 16]
 • Annex 3 [Sep 11]
 • Annex 1 [Dec 9, 2022]
 • Umbrella Agreement [Dec 9, 2022]
 • Liner Solicitation [May 22]

NASA recommends negotiating a sole source contract with Textiles Coated International (TCI) to provide two specific types of custom multi-ply polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) film. The first is a 56-inch wide, 0.005-inch thick film with a 100% bondable surface on one side and an 8-inch bondable strip on the other side, black in color, in approximately 400-foot lengths. The second is a 12-inch wide, 0.005-inch thick film with 100% bondable surfaces on both sides, black in color, in 100-foot lengths. The total estimated cost is redacted and the estimated delivery period is 6/28/24. NASA states that this custom PTFE film was developed and extensively tested under the Hypersonic Inflatable Aerodynamic Decelerator (HIAD) and LeO Flight Test of an Inflatable Decelerator (LOFTID) projects, and is required to meet the performance needs for the Vulcan Engine Recovery Aeroshell (VERA) project. An alternate film from a different manufacturer would require significant testing and be cost prohibitive.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

Wish you guys could return one of these after launch, reusable Vulcan would be dope.

https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/1861742400156160356

Coming. CDR in about a month

[Eric Hedman]

Wish you guys could return one of these after launch, reusable Vulcan would be dope.

https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/1861742400156160356

Coming. CDR in about a month

Interesting to say the least.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://bsky.app/profile/torybruno.bsky.social/post/3lc7gjkngqk27

Thought you guys might find this interesting. Building some qual
Hardware for the new reusable (booster) thrust structure. #VulcanRocket

https://bsky.app/profile/torybruno.bsky.social/post/3lceea6sx4k2m

Reuse System CDR underway in Centennial. This torus is from the HIAD, about half way across the cone.

[Starshipdown]

Uh-oh. No one can say anymore that SMART is only a paper program one one with subscale demonstrator hardware. It's real now, and this shows that, at least for now, ULA is committed.

[meekGee]

Uh-oh. No one can say anymore that SMART is only a paper program one one with subscale demonstrator hardware. It's real now, and this shows that, at least for now, ULA is committed.

Well it was a paper program for decades, now transitioning into a too little too late program.

I mean, seriously, how would it make any difference?

[TrevorMonty]

Uh-oh. No one can say anymore that SMART is only a paper program one one with subscale demonstrator hardware. It's real now, and this shows that, at least for now, ULA is committed.

Well it was a paper program for decades, now transitioning into a too little too late program.

I mean, seriously, how would it make any difference?

Makes as much financial sense as fishing fairings out of ocean and reusing them.

[DanClemmensen]

Uh-oh. No one can say anymore that SMART is only a paper program one one with subscale demonstrator hardware. It's real now, and this shows that, at least for now, ULA is committed.

Well it was a paper program for decades, now transitioning into a too little too late program.

I mean, seriously, how would it make any difference?

Makes as much financial sense as fishing fairings out of ocean and reusing them.

It almost certainly makes economic sense if the number of Vulcan flights is high enough to amortize the development cost AND the money saved per recovery/refurbish/reuse cycle is high enough. There are problems with both of these.

[joek]

Makes as much financial sense as fishing fairings out of ocean and reusing them.

True, but that's years past. On a go-forward basis, fishing for fairings in not SpaceX's plan (or any near competitor, as far as I can telll).

We hashed out SMART years ago in the Reuse business case thread. Nothing new here, other than that we're almost 10 years later and ULA is still behind the times with respect to any type of reuse.

[TrevorMonty]

Makes as much financial sense as fishing fairings out of ocean and reusing them.

True, but that's years past. On a go-forward basis, fishing for fairings in not SpaceX's plan (or any near competitor, as far as I can telll).

We hashed out SMART years ago in the Reuse business case thread. Nothing new here, other than that we're almost 10 years later and ULA is still behind the times with respect to any type of reuse.

Still $15-20m saving per flight and Vulcan has backlog of 70 flights likely to be 100-150 by time it is replaced. Even at lower $1B saving, that is lot money to be leaving on ocean floor. There was also talk of recovering fairings not sure if it is still on the cards. Because ULA buys fairings savings per flight would be even greater than for F9.
The other benefit from reuse is any price increase in new engines won't be big hit on ULA's bottom line.

Elon's tweet on fairing recovery.
Quote: "At one point we were debating if we should try to recover it or not. Imagine if you had $6 million in cash in a pallet flying through the air, and it was going to smash into the ocean. Would you try to recover that? Yes, yes you would".

[DanClemmensen]

Makes as much financial sense as fishing fairings out of ocean and reusing them.

True, but that's years past. On a go-forward basis, fishing for fairings in not SpaceX's plan (or any near competitor, as far as I can telll).

We hashed out SMART years ago in the Reuse business case thread. Nothing new here, other than that we're almost 10 years later and ULA is still behind the times with respect to any type of reuse.

Still $15-20m saving per flight and Vulcan has backlog of 70 flights likely to be 100-150 by time it is replaced. Even at lower $1B saving, that is lot money to be leaving on ocean floor. There was also talk of recovering fairings not sure if it is still on the cards. Because ULA buys fairings savings per flight would be even greater than for F9.
The other benefit from reuse is any price increase in new engines won't be big hit on ULA's bottom line.

Atlas V has flown 101 times in 22 years and will fly at most 15 more times, with basically no competition for those launches. Where will those Vulcan launches come from? when will Vulcan reach EOL?

[TrevorMonty]

Makes as much financial sense as fishing fairings out of ocean and reusing them.

True, but that's years past. On a go-forward basis, fishing for fairings in not SpaceX's plan (or any near competitor, as far as I can telll).

We hashed out SMART years ago in the Reuse business case thread. Nothing new here, other than that we're almost 10 years later and ULA is still behind the times with respect to any type of reuse.

Still $15-20m saving per flight and Vulcan has backlog of 70 flights likely to be 100-150 by time it is replaced. Even at lower $1B saving, that is lot money to be leaving on ocean floor. There was also talk of recovering fairings not sure if it is still on the cards. Because ULA buys fairings savings per flight would be even greater than for F9.
The other benefit from reuse is any price increase in new engines won't be big hit on ULA's bottom line.

Atlas V has flown 101 times in 22 years and will fly at most 15 more times, with basically no competition for those launches. Where will those Vulcan launches come from? when will Vulcan reach EOL?

$1B saving from 70 backlog alone makes SMART worthwhile.

[DanClemmensen]

Makes as much financial sense as fishing fairings out of ocean and reusing them.

True, but that's years past. On a go-forward basis, fishing for fairings in not SpaceX's plan (or any near competitor, as far as I can telll).

We hashed out SMART years ago in the Reuse business case thread. Nothing new here, other than that we're almost 10 years later and ULA is still behind the times with respect to any type of reuse.

Still $15-20m saving per flight and Vulcan has backlog of 70 flights likely to be 100-150 by time it is replaced. Even at lower $1B saving, that is lot money to be leaving on ocean floor. There was also talk of recovering fairings not sure if it is still on the cards. Because ULA buys fairings savings per flight would be even greater than for F9.
The other benefit from reuse is any price increase in new engines won't be big hit on ULA's bottom line.

Atlas V has flown 101 times in 22 years and will fly at most 15 more times, with basically no competition for those launches. Where will those Vulcan launches come from? when will Vulcan reach EOL?

$1B saving from 70 backlog alone makes SMART worthwhile.

Will BE-4 ever become as cheap as Raptor 3? If not, why not? If so, what is the SMART savings?