Maybe someone has asked this: If this Progress was a crew launch of Soyuz (same upstage?), and same thing happened, what could the crew do differently to save themselves? That may be crucial to determine whether the crew launch should be delayed.
Quote from: sunbingfa on 05/03/2015 03:40 pmMaybe someone has asked this: If this Progress was a crew launch of Soyuz (same upstage?), and same thing happened, what could the crew do differently to save themselves? That may be crucial to determine whether the crew launch should be delayed. Considering that it seems like based on the recent reports that all the propellant is gone, there is nothing they could have done as you need propellant to operate the thrusters and arrest the spin. Another factor is the actual rate of the spin. I believe it's high enough to induce G-LOC even in the best fit and trained fighter pilots.
Quote from: DaveS on 05/03/2015 03:49 pmQuote from: sunbingfa on 05/03/2015 03:40 pmMaybe someone has asked this: If this Progress was a crew launch of Soyuz (same upstage?), and same thing happened, what could the crew do differently to save themselves? That may be crucial to determine whether the crew launch should be delayed. Considering that it seems like based on the recent reports that all the propellant is gone, there is nothing they could have done as you need propellant to operate the thrusters and arrest the spin. Another factor is the actual rate of the spin. I believe it's high enough to induce G-LOC even in the best fit and trained fighter pilots.Gemini 8 spun up to one revolution per second and Armstrong was still able to regain control of the ship. At that rotation the crew was in danger of losing consciousness. Progress is not spinning that fast.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_8#EmergencyGemini had two sets of thrusters with separate fuel supplies. Does Soyuz have a backup system?
If it were a manned Soyuz, could there have been a LON of sorts (one Soyuz with one pilot) to dock with the damaged craft and rescue the crew? Maybe, if no Soyuz were ready to launch, to send one of those docked at the ISS?
The Soyuz spacecraft has redundant prop manifolds, same as Progress.In the event that both manifolds fail after separation, the spacecraft would normally decay after two or three days. However, if the third stage over-performs and the Soyuz manifolds both fail at separation, that would be a problem.
Or separate the return capsule, which must have some RCS by itself, right?
Let's remember that RD-01110 has 1,692 missions under its belt. The 2.1a avionics just 22.
Quote from: fgonella on 05/03/2015 04:27 pmIf it were a manned Soyuz, could there have been a LON of sorts (one Soyuz with one pilot) to dock with the damaged craft and rescue the crew? Maybe, if no Soyuz were ready to launch, to send one of those docked at the ISS?No. The Soyuz (assuming one with a 'female' docking interface was available) can only carry three crew. It is too small to squeeze in one more, unlike Apollo that could, at an extreme, carry five.
Quote from: sunbingfa on 05/03/2015 03:40 pmMaybe someone has asked this: If this Progress was a crew launch of Soyuz (same upstage?), and same thing happened, what could the crew do differently to save themselves? That may be crucial to determine whether the crew launch should be delayed.Considering that it seems like based on the recent reports that all the propellant is gone, there is nothing they could have done as you need propellant to operate the thrusters and arrest the spin. Another factor is the actual rate of the spin. I believe it's high enough to induce G-LOC even in the best fit and trained fighter pilots.
Quote from: DaveS on 05/03/2015 03:49 pmQuote from: sunbingfa on 05/03/2015 03:40 pmMaybe someone has asked this: If this Progress was a crew launch of Soyuz (same upstage?), and same thing happened, what could the crew do differently to save themselves? That may be crucial to determine whether the crew launch should be delayed.Considering that it seems like based on the recent reports that all the propellant is gone, there is nothing they could have done as you need propellant to operate the thrusters and arrest the spin. Another factor is the actual rate of the spin. I believe it's high enough to induce G-LOC even in the best fit and trained fighter pilots.Would a crewed launch have gone that far? At what point would it abort?
Can they separate the orbital module? That should take quite a bit of momentum. Or separate the return capsule, which must have some RCS by itself, right?
Quote from: baldusi on 05/03/2015 06:12 pmCan they separate the orbital module? That should take quite a bit of momentum. Or separate the return capsule, which must have some RCS by itself, right?Separating the orbital module might generate a fraction of a meter per second, if performed perfectly, but the resulting stack would decay more slowly, due to higher density.The descent module has ACS, but no RCS.
In 'Gravity' they used the cute [but of course unworkable] idea to get delta-V into the Soyuz by fooling the descent radar into firing the terminal braking engines. Of course it can't be done, but I was impressed with the effort at a superficially plausible trick.