Author Topic: China to have new rockets  (Read 539251 times)

Offline Damon Hill

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #60 on: 09/20/2008 01:01 pm »
What is this model of YF?

Since it has what looks like a gas generator turbopump with exhaust, it's probably the old version.  If the new version is actually an expander cycle turbopump, it probably is closed-cycle with no external duct and exhaust.  Tends to maximize Isp.

Offline astrowiki

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #61 on: 09/20/2008 09:43 pm »
It is not YF-73 on 3rd stage of CZ-3, because YF-73 has 4 combustion chambers.

It is not YF-75 on 3rd stage of CZ-3A/B/C, because there should be TWO engines installed side by side(or one engine has 2 chambers?).

So I suspect it is some hypergolic YF-22 for 2nd stage, which has only one engine with one chamber.

YF-73 and YF-75 are gas generator cycle engines, YF-75D is changed to use expander cycle as I know.



Since it has what looks like a gas generator turbopump with exhaust, it's probably the old version.  If the new version is actually an expander cycle turbopump, it probably is closed-cycle with no external duct and exhaust.  Tends to maximize Isp.

Offline hesidu

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #62 on: 09/20/2008 11:47 pm »
What is this model of YF?
It could be YF-22 which used as second stage on CZ-2C, or YF-25 which used as second stage on CZ-2D/E/F, CZ-3A/B/C, CZ-4A/B.

CZ-2C:

Offline hesidu

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #63 on: 09/22/2008 02:16 am »
http://chinaneast.xinhuanet.com/jszb/2008-09/22/content_14454817.htm

  (Xinhua news)According Jing Muchun, chief designer of rocket system of China's manned space project, Shenzhou 7 will be CZ-2F's last show. It will retired after Shenzhou 7.
  There will be two steps to replace CZ-2F rocket. First step, Rocket which will be used to launch the "Target Spacecraft(kind of a connecter)" after Shenzhou 7 will be a newly designed CZ-2F. Since the "target spacecraft" will be unmanned, so the rocket won't need the escaping tower. The fairing will be redesigned and be enlarged. The inertial surveying systems will be redesigned. It will use new guidance control, electronic equipment. The rocket will be more reliable, lighter, smaller, and more integrated.
  Second step, the medium type of CZ-5 rocket, all-liquid oxygen/kerosene medium launch vehicle, will be used for the manned space project. It will be the "3.35m core + 2x2.25m(or 4x2.25m) strap-ons" type.

  Question is, since the CZ-2F will never be used after Shenzhou-7, which rocket will be used for launching the Shenzhou 8/9(unmanned), especially the Shenzhou 10(manned).
« Last Edit: 09/22/2008 02:31 am by hesidu »

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #64 on: 09/22/2008 11:02 am »
http://chinaneast.xinhuanet.com/jszb/2008-09/22/content_14454817.htm

  (Xinhua news)According Jing Muchun, chief designer of rocket system of China's manned space project, Shenzhou 7 will be CZ-2F's last show. It will retired after Shenzhou 7.
  There will be two steps to replace CZ-2F rocket. First step, Rocket which will be used to launch the "Target Spacecraft(kind of a connecter)" after Shenzhou 7 will be a newly designed CZ-2F. Since the "target spacecraft" will be unmanned, so the rocket won't need the escaping tower. The fairing will be redesigned and be enlarged. The inertial surveying systems will be redesigned. It will use new guidance control, electronic equipment. The rocket will be more reliable, lighter, smaller, and more integrated.
  Second step, the medium type of CZ-5 rocket, all-liquid oxygen/kerosene medium launch vehicle, will be used for the manned space project. It will be the "3.35m core + 2x2.25m(or 4x2.25m) strap-ons" type.

  Question is, since the CZ-2F will never be used after Shenzhou-7, which rocket will be used for launching the Shenzhou 8/9(unmanned), especially the Shenzhou 10(manned).

So, the "target spacecraft" is not the Shenzhou-8?

Offline hesidu

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #65 on: 09/22/2008 12:22 pm »
So, the "target spacecraft" is not the Shenzhou-8?
No. I think the "target spacecraft" is a new spacecraft, which will become the main part of the future "space lib".
http://www.chinanews.com.cn/gn/news/2008/09-16/1383010.shtml
This news, published in Xinhua News Website in Sep. 16th 2008, clearly said that Shenzhou 8/9/10 will dock with this "target spacecraft".

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #66 on: 09/22/2008 12:55 pm »
So, the "target spacecraft" is not the Shenzhou-8?
No. I think the "target spacecraft" is a new spacecraft, which will become the main part of the future "space lib".
http://www.chinanews.com.cn/gn/news/2008/09-16/1383010.shtml
This news, published in Xinhua News Website in Sep. 16th 2008, clearly said that Shenzhou 8/9/10 will dock with this "target spacecraft".

Ok! Thank you very much for clarifiying this. Humm, this 'target spacecraft' can be the Tiangong-1?

Offline astrowiki

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #67 on: 09/22/2008 04:41 pm »
http://chinaneast.xinhuanet.com/jszb/2008-09/22/content_14454817.htm

....
  Question is, since the CZ-2F will never be used after Shenzhou-7, which rocket will be used for launching the Shenzhou 8/9(unmanned), especially the Shenzhou 10(manned).

Chinese media always releasing comfusing and conflicting info. I think they will modify CZ-2F to launch unmanned spacecraft, which can be larger and heavier because no need for LAS, like Russian use Soyuz launch vehicle to lanch Progress cargo ferry.

Manned spacescraft will still be launched by CZ-2F. There is no need to develop a new LV since current CZ-2F is doing well. Also there is no new LVs available so far. CZ-5 won't be ready until 2014. The new space port in Hainan Island is just ground-breaking.

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #68 on: 09/23/2008 05:48 pm »
Looking much further ahead, if the Chinese are interested in a manned lunar programme then already they should be thinking of a "CZ-6" vehicle in the same class as the N-1 or Saturn-5.   I have played around with the CZ-5 "kit" quite a bit and there is nothing there other than massive clustering of the 120 tonne LOX/kerosene engines that could give them the thrust required.

The CZ-5 with its third stage is more than capable for flying a complete three-manned Shenzhou around the Moon, like the L-1/Zond missions [side issue - the 40th anniversary of Zond 5 has just passed], but that is all.

I cannot see multiple orbital rendezvous and dockings of CZ-5 payloads as the basis for a manned lunar landings - too many specialised modules to be launched in a short space of time, and one module's loss would scupper the whole mission.

It will be useful to watch the Hainan Island development to see whether the pads being constructed for the CZ-5 could be dual-purpose ones and could support a much larger vehicle.

Alternatively, the area chosen might allow a couple of larger pads to be constructed a few years later in support of a giant vehicle.

Right now it is impossible to speculate meaningfully about how the Chinese will put men on the Moon, despite apparently detaled drawings appearing on some web sites which pretend to be authoritative.   I would guess that the Chnese are still scratching their collective heads concerning the details of a manned lunar landing programme!
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Offline hesidu

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #69 on: 09/24/2008 02:42 pm »
Ok! Thank you very much for clarifiying this. Humm, this 'target spacecraft' can be the Tiangong-1?
http://www.cmse.gov.cn/cha_xtzc/show.php?itemid=120

Yes, According this article, Tiangong-1 is the 'target spacecraft'. And after Tiangong-1, other two 'space laboratories', Tiangong-2 and Tiangong-3 will be launched.
I guess the reason why Tiangong-1 is called 'target spacecraft' and Tiangong-2/3 are called 'space laboratories' is that Tiangong-1 will only perform docking test.

Offline astrowiki

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #70 on: 09/26/2008 09:59 pm »
This guy says:

This is NOT the last time that CZ-2F flies.

http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2008-09-26/210616365155.shtml

Offline savuporo

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #71 on: 09/27/2008 05:30 pm »
Looking much further ahead, if the Chinese are interested in a manned lunar programme then already they should be thinking of a "CZ-6" vehicle in the same class as the N-1 or Saturn-5.
Why "much further" ? Do you remember how much time US took to go from first spacewalk to first manned moon landing ?

I dont know about chinese plans, but i think they understand full well that building single-use big boosters isnt economical and they will figure out on how to do lunar with orbital docking. I would expect them to do a Gemini-Agena analogue some time soon, boosting Shenzou orbital modules to higher orbits, and maybe loops around the moon after that. Even just to say "we can go further than anyone else can".

The original variety CEV proposals are still available here,
http://www.astronautix.com/craftfam/cev.htm
The chinese can copy an approach that best fits their existing and planned launch vehicles and reuses Shenzou design best.
« Last Edit: 09/27/2008 05:47 pm by savuporo »
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline fregate

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #72 on: 11/09/2008 07:57 am »
Quote
Roland - 6/3/2008  12:10 PM

Absolutely!
And if the Chinese will launch a Spacestation,i think we will see a Salyut-like Module.
But they can launch several Modules to build up a Mir-Class Station.
But can they do a manned Moon orbiting Mission like the unmanned Zond Flights?

Zond was a cicumlunar flight.  If CZ-5 is able to put 25 tonnes into LEO, it should also be able to propel up to 10.5 tonnes toward the moon using a dedicated cryogenic TLI stage (or 8.5 tonnes using the planned cryogenic "HO" stage to perform a second burn).  I think that should be enough to boost a Shenzhou-like spacecraft on a cirucumlunar mission. 

An Earth Rendezvous mission using two CZ-5 launches should be sufficient to perform a lunar orbiting mission with a Shenzhou-like spacecraft, assuming cryogenic TLI and hypergolic LOI/TEI stages are used.

These possibilities may be what Griffin is talking about when he says that China will get to the Moon before NASA can return.

 - Ed Kyle

To Ed Kyle:
3rd (LOX/LOH cryogenic) stage of CZ-5 utilised as EDS (EOR is required) could send to TLI trajectory payload up to 17,787 kg (with gravity losses) 

Assumptions:
- Ideal Delta V for TLI burn 3175 m/sec (without gravity losses); 
- Payload (lunar spacecraft) and EDS stage are launched by separate LV and use EOR (docking on LEO);
- EDS is launced on LEO fully fueled and has a capability to store cryogenic propellants at least for a period up to 2 days (until payload is docked with EDS stage);
- EDS gross mas 26,420 kg
- EDS propellant mass 22,900 kg
- EDS empty mass 3,520 kg
- EDS has 2xYF-75D cryogenic engines;
- Specific impulse 448 sec (vac); 
- Each engine thrust 7850 kgf (77 kN)
- EDS+payload Thrust to weight ratio - 0.3551
- Gravity Losses during TLI 33 m/sec
- Payload mass for TLI (without gravity losses) 18,100 kg
- Require Delta V for TLI burn 3208 m/sec (with gravity losses) 
- Payload mass for TLI (with gravity losses)  17,787 kg
 
« Last Edit: 11/09/2008 07:58 am by fregate »
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Offline summit2

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #73 on: 11/09/2008 09:56 am »
Thank you very much fregate !! That is quite impressive !
To complete, here is the chinese new launcher generation as explain by chinese agency :

I think the critical point for the future of the chinese space activities is to have a 5 meter corp launcher. Without it, Tiangong can not be launched (unless puting a 5 meter module on top of the 3.35 meter corp LM-2F) ...

Offline summit2

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #74 on: 11/09/2008 10:01 am »
120t YF motor last test in june 08

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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #76 on: 03/04/2009 08:57 am »
Hmmm... Interesting how no one seems interested in going beyond the 25t to LEO limit.  Is that an engineering issue or is it just that no one routinely has any payloads that goes over that limit that would justify the development of a heavier lifter?

ULA has stated that the Delta-IV can be further upgraded to push its payload capability over 25t and towards 40t, IIRC.  I wonder if a similar 'Long March-5H' development exists.
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Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #77 on: 03/04/2009 11:18 am »
From Xinhua China's jumbo rocket "carrying capacity factor" world's second largest: expert.

There is a very interesting comment relating to the largest variant of the CZ-5 in the above story:

'Liang said "the rocket is currently China's best with the largest payload among the nation's rocket lineup" and was expected to deliver astronauts onto moon.'

So, how many CZ-5s do you need for a manned lunar mission?   Of course  a single launch would allow a complete Shenzhou to loop around the Moon on a "Zond/L-1" class mission.

But what about a lunar landing?   Would there be an improved CZ-5 as some sources have suggested (two or three launches?) or would we see two pairs of launches, with EOR between a translunar stage and the lunar lander and then another translunar stage and a lunar Shenzhou?   That wiould need LOR, crew transfer, landing, LOR and then return to Earth.

It will be interesting to see how the Chinese accomplish such a mission.
 
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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #78 on: 03/04/2009 11:50 am »
IIRC, the Chinese moon plan is assumed to be something like this:

Six launches:
* 2-seat Lander
* Lander's EDS
* Earth Return Stage
* Earth Return Stage's EDS
* Shenzhou (possibly without orbital module)
* Shenzhou's EDS

The first four are sent ahead.  The Shenzhou follows when they are all in LLO.  All remaining propellent in the EDS modules is used up in LOI. 

Once the vehicles are in lunar orbit, the Shenzhou rendezvouses with the Lander (front) and the ERS (back).  After completing surface operations, the lander is expended and the Shenzhou and ERS perform ROI.

If they can find some way to push the CZ-5's payload weight up by about 80-100%, they can reduce it to a three-launch archetecture by launching the EDS with payload.
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Offline wbhh

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #79 on: 03/04/2009 02:19 pm »
Small and light living module from space station can be utilized.

So extra launch:
one lander module
two or three propelling modules

And assemble them in space station, so this procedure can take one or two years, there's no need to rush.

After the mission, living module dock to space station and be a apart of it again.

This way is inexpensive if it's feasible.

 

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