Where are all the entry level jobs!?!?

[WillyT123]

So I've got my BS in aerospace engineering, and I want to work in the space industry. Long term I think I'd like to work in systems engineering, but who knows? For now, I'm just focused on getting my foot in the door. The problem is I missed the boat when it came to how important it was to get internships, co-ops, and technical extracurriculars in undergrad. I was preoccupied with club sports and partying. Before graduation, I had a job offer from a Navy shipyard basically fall into my lap, and I took it. I been there 16 months and it sucks. So I'm looking around for entry level space industry engineering jobs and finding that true entry level new grad jobs are few and far between. A lot of what I am finding is satellite operations. Cool right? Idk. Maybe its 60hrs/wk for $60k, which would be not cool. Again, idk. Even these jobs typically look for 1-2 years of experience or grad school and some knowledge or software skills that were not really extensively covered by my degree. Like yeah I got the basics but give me an orbital mechanics problem and a matlab terminal right now and you'll be waiting a hot minute for an answer.

I get the sense that I'm gonna want to go to grad school in the long run, but idk if I could even get in most places with my current resume. Grades were alright, 3.1 gpa, but like I said, no research, no AIAA, no rocket team, no relationships with professors, none of that. Plus I'd rather have my employer pay for it y'know.

So right now my plan is to get my level 1 and 2 STK certs, learn some SQL, maybe some python and apply to be a satellite operations engineer. I'll send applications to other things if they look attainable but like I said, these things are hard for me to find and my experience feels lacking. Thanks for reading my rant if you made it this far. Any and all advice much appreciated.

[laszlo]

Sounds like your advisor was asleep at the switch.

Maybe time to join Space Force?

So what are you looking for?

[Eric Hedman]

First of all, rants don't get you anywhere.   They just make you feel better at the moment.

Secondly, I recommend finding a focus that interests you.  Are you fascinated by design, or by operations, or manufacturing, etc.?

Why did you get a degree in aerospace engineering?  Did it feed a passion? Or did was it just something to get a high paying job that fit your skill set?  Companies like SpaceX are looking for people with a passion to fit in their culture.

Spending time in club sports is not an excuse for not following what needs to get done to prepare yourself for the working world.  I was on a varsity sport that required two hours at practice six days a week from September to May and I worked an internship in the summer.  You need to focus.  If you think you need a master's degree to get into what you want, finding an employer willing to pay for it is great.  But who pays for it is secondary to actually doing it if a career in aerospace is important to you.

The first step to success in anything is figuring out where you want to actually end up.  Then build a plan to efficiently get there.

[gtae07]

Secondly, I recommend finding a focus that interests you.  Are you fascinated by design, or by operations, or manufacturing, etc.?

Why did you get a degree in aerospace engineering?  Did it feed a passion? Or did was it just something to get a high paying job that fit your skill set?  Companies like SpaceX are looking for people with a passion to fit in their culture.

+1

To the OP:

It really helps to know why you want a job in this field and what’s driving you for it.  I’ve been an airplane nut since I was a toddler, and space fell neatly into that bin.  I wanted to be a pilot like my dad, and an aerospace engineer; now I’m both (I fly little airplanes for fun and work at an aircraft OEM).  But truth be told, at 15 years into my career it’s no longer important to me to work in aerospace.  I’m feeding my thirst by building my own airplane and flying when I can, and my job is just an avenue to make that (and other important personal things) happen by way of the paycheck it provides.  That it’s in aerospace is still beneficial since I have that extra knowledge and understanding compared to many of my coworkers, and it pays well, but honestly I could be working in another field and be quite happy in the right environment.

You might not have the answer yet, but think about what is important to you in a job.  Is it what you’re working on (airplane, launch vehicle, satellite, engines, etc)?  Is it the type of work (design, project management, troubleshooting, etc)?  Is it a particular subject (aerodynamics, orbital mechanics, power systems)?  I eventually discovered that what’s important to me with a job is not what I’m working on, but what the work is like and who I’m working with.  I like short-term fast-paced technical challenges across a wide range of subjects, and working with a good, friendly, and competent team.   Others want to have really deep knowledge in a specific area and be an expert.  Some thrive on competitive environments (e.g., sales). 


OP, what are you doing at the shipyard right now?  What do you think of that kind of work, even if you don’t like the specific job or employer?  Depending on what you are doing, even that can be good experience that helps you out when you go to look for another job.  Almost certainly, if you are doing anything remotely close to engineering in any form, it’s work experience that will count.

There are entry-level jobs available in the aerospace industry in general, but they can be hard to find at the moment.  Tens (hundreds?) of thousands of engineers and technicians lost their jobs in the last year and a half and there are undoubtably a good chunk of them still seeking new employment.  You’re competing with all of them.

You might also want to consider a job outside of space specifically, at least for the near term.  There are more jobs on the “aero” side in general and much of the experience is portable into a space position later on.

Also, you’ve only been out of school what, 16 months?  Nobody expects you to be an expert at this point even if you were already working on the specific thing you’re looking for. Don’t worry about whether you have specific experience with a given program; software can be learned.  People typically overestimate the importance of specific software and academic topics covered; the point of the degree is to show you can learn something and you use work experience to start learning. 

If you want to do systems engineering you will find it beneficial to get some experience in other areas first.  Find a job with a hydraulics or flight controls or avionics group, do that for a year or two, and move around. Gain some broad experience.

Maybe you want to be a controls guy.  Can’t find a job at SpaceX right now?  Get a controls job somewhere else, even outside aerospace. Better the imperfect job that gets you some relevant experience, than sitting around waiting on the perfect job that never comes along.

No, you didn’t do yourself favors by skipping work experience and hands-on extracurriculars.  But it’s too late to undo that; now you need to work on finding the best path forward. 

[Newton_V]

ULA should have openings come Monday...

[Orbiter]

In all fairness, I do agree that there does seem to be a lack of entry-level positions, at least compared to 2019. Or at least the bar to get into those positions is much higher. I've been also applying for about a year & have gotten no responses.  Not complaining, because I recognize the current hiring difficulties & agree with the above posts.

Networking and internships are incredibly important, something I failed to realize as an undergraduate! This was why I began my Master's degree this semester in a space related field.

[zubenelgenubi]

Sounds like your advisor was asleep at the switch.

<sarcasm>
That's impossible!
</sarcasm>

[zubenelgenubi]

Moderator:
The ALLCAPS thread title triggered my PTED (Post Traumatic Editorial Disorder).
 
gongora and I edited the OP and reply titles.

[Robotbeat]

Key is internships. Those are the entry level positions.

I went back to grad school in major part so I would be eligible for internships which would let me get my foot in the door. It worked.

[Rocket Science]

If you want to work at SpaceX and ask Elon, he'll tell you getting a Masters degree just a waste of time... Try to get in even if it is something you don't want and pays less... Get noticed by managers and keep an eye out for internal job postings. Sometimes even a lateral move within a company will allow you the opportunity to get ahead... You have youth, time and energy on you side, don't get frustrated focus that energy into a big picture plan...

[Robotbeat]

Grad school IS useful as it gets you another shot at internships. If you graduated undergrad and don’t have any internships under your belt, it’s gonna be really tough to find a position.

Masters is relatively useful in engineering. PhD is too long for not much more benefit, depending on the field, so do PhD if you enjoy the experience of academia, but I wouldn’t do a PhD otherwise.

[WillyT123]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I'm still applying to what I can find that looks interesting, including outside the industry but in relevant fields like controls. I would welcome any advice on what else to look for. I plan to start my masters in the fall if nothing else works out.

Secondly, I recommend finding a focus that interests you.  Are you fascinated by design, or by operations, or manufacturing, etc.?

Why did you get a degree in aerospace engineering?  Did it feed a passion? Or did was it just something to get a high paying job that fit your skill set?  Companies like SpaceX are looking for people with a passion to fit in their culture.

Spending time in club sports is not an excuse for not following what needs to get done to prepare yourself for the working world. 

I think I would really like design, and operations sounds like it would also be interesting, but frankly I have zero real world exposure to these things so to say that I wanna do this or that is really just guessing.

I started off in mechanical but switched to aerospace because the classes looked more interesting and I read that it paid more. I wasn't really a space geek growing up. I thought satellites and rockets were cool in the same way that I thought planes and ships and racecars were cool. I of course know now that space ships are way cooler. These days I feel compelled to work towards a role where my skills and interests can make a positive impact on the climate, the most obvious (to me at least) path for that being earth observation/remote sensing. Orbital debris is also an issue that I hope gets addressed in my lifetime and I would love to be a part of that solution. Geopolitics and strategy is another area that interests me and that I follow closely but I don't know if I wanna deal with the secrecy of strategic systems development. Companies like SpaceX are looking for employees that are willing to put up with their abusive labor practices, which I am not.

I'm not trying to use club sports as an excuse. My "excuse," as if it counts for jack now, is that I had no idea how screwed I would be without these things on my resume. I made the "mistake" of thinking that my degree would actually prepare me for the jobs I want to do. I don't want to sound defensive, it is what it is, I won't make that mistake again.

You might not have the answer yet, but think about what is important to you in a job.  Is it what you’re working on (airplane, launch vehicle, satellite, engines, etc)?  Is it the type of work (design, project management, troubleshooting, etc)?  Is it a particular subject (aerodynamics, orbital mechanics, power systems)?  I eventually discovered that what’s important to me with a job is not what I’m working on, but what the work is like and who I’m working with.  I like short-term fast-paced technical challenges across a wide range of subjects, and working with a good, friendly, and competent team.   Others want to have really deep knowledge in a specific area and be an expert.  Some thrive on competitive environments (e.g., sales). 

OP, what are you doing at the shipyard right now?  What do you think of that kind of work, even if you don’t like the specific job or employer?  Depending on what you are doing, even that can be good experience that helps you out when you go to look for another job.  Almost certainly, if you are doing anything remotely close to engineering in any form, it’s work experience that will count.

There are entry-level jobs available in the aerospace industry in general, but they can be hard to find at the moment.  Tens (hundreds?) of thousands of engineers and technicians lost their jobs in the last year and a half and there are undoubtably a good chunk of them still seeking new employment.  You’re competing with all of them.

You might also want to consider a job outside of space specifically, at least for the near term.  There are more jobs on the “aero” side in general and much of the experience is portable into a space position later on.

I really don't know, and I don't think I *can* know without experience, what type of work I would enjoy, which is why I think I'm so focused on the subject matter instead. I hear you though on the day-to-day working routine and environment being more important to overall satisfaction than what you're working on. I really want a job that's challenging, that involves some creative problem solving, that keeps an eye on the big picture rather than going down an esoteric technical rabbit hole. I want a job that makes the world a little bit better place. That I can be proud of, and not because of the paycheck. Good God I sound naive.

My job now is a glorified cad technician. I also do some simple FEA modeling, but my office is mostly a production line for 2d AutoCAD drawings. Its very repetitive. Once you get the hang of the process the hardest part is digging through the messy file system and 100's of thousands of drawings and standards to find the info you need.

I'm really surprised to learn that the aerospace industry was so badly affected by covid. Any particular reason why? Also any reason they haven't ramped hiring back up now that things are more or less back to normal? That was nearly two years ago now.

[gtae07]

I really don't know, and I don't think I *can* know without experience, what type of work I would enjoy, which is why I think I'm so focused on the subject matter instead. I hear you though on the day-to-day working routine and environment being more important to overall satisfaction than what you're working on. I really want a job that's challenging, that involves some creative problem solving, that keeps an eye on the big picture rather than going down an esoteric technical rabbit hole. I want a job that makes the world a little bit better place. That I can be proud of, and not because of the paycheck. Good God I sound naive.

Well, no offense, but... you said it, not me

Outside of a few aggressive startups (which I read as "awesome work, lots of work, crap pay, no job security") aerospace/defense is not the field to go into if you want to change the world or make a difference.  It's boring, old-fashioned, and cyclical; you're just a cog in the machine, but generally a well-compensated one.

My job now is a glorified cad technician. I also do some simple FEA modeling, but my office is mostly a production line for 2d AutoCAD drawings. Its very repetitive. Once you get the hang of the process the hardest part is digging through the messy file system and 100's of thousands of drawings and standards to find the info you need.

Sounds like an entry-level engineering job at any large established company.  Lots of us started out as glorified CAD drivers.  Unless you're an absolute rockstar or someone high up takes a liking to you, you're going to pay your dues with boring tasks for a couple years.

99.5% of engineers aren't going to come out of college and work awesome jobs changing the world.  The specifics vary by field, but in aerospace you're generally going to start out as a junior second-class small bracket designer (probationary).  It sucks at the time, but you're generally still learning.  It's sort of like an apprenticeship--you do the boring scut work until you learn enough by osmosis that they can start giving you bigger things to work on. 

After you get 12-18 months under your belt you could probably start looking at next-level positions in other places.  You could probably put in for a structural design position with reasonable chances.  If you can, though, try to learn not just how to make the drawings, but what all that stuff on the drawing really means--and not just from the book definition, but from the people who are using the drawing to make something.

I'm really surprised to learn that the aerospace industry was so badly affected by covid. Any particular reason why?

Global air traffic grinding to a near standstill probably had a little tiny bit to do with it 
Basically the industry collectively soiled its drawers between March and July/August, especially those on the civil side (airlines and general aviation).  Orders for airliners dried up, and so all the subtier suppliers took it in the shorts.  OEMs had massive layoffs too (which was icing on top of the crap sandwich Boeing had made for itself with the Max and Starliner).  Airlines parked their airplanes and put a lot of maintenance on hold; mechanics got laid off or furloughed.  Even the big defense contractors put everything on hold until the uncertainty cleared up.
My employer had just made a deep layoff in engineering in fall 2019, then when Covid hit they panicked (because we weren't going to make the quarter's numbers  ) and instituted a permanent solution to a temporary problem, with broad-brush "XX% from every department" layoffs.  We lost even more people and we've hired very few replacements so far.

Adding to it was that a lot of people decided that it was as good a time as any to retire--many of them years earlier than they otherwise would have.  We lost even more people, as did many other companies. 

Also any reason they haven't ramped hiring back up now that things are more or less back to normal? That was nearly two years ago now.

Heh... you would think.  But even though the market seems to have recovered and we're trending towards "normal", IMHO the industry as a whole is still pretty wounded and it's going to take it a while to recover.  IMHO there's a parallel in the chip shortage--it's really easy to turn the machine off; it's much harder to get the machine going again.  Air traffic in the US may be edging closer to "normal" due to low-yield liesure travel, but international traffic is still way down from 2019 levels. 

On one hand the industry has a lot of structural problems. As I said, much of the civil aviation market hasn't fully bounced back, and as bad as that is for the OEMs it hurts the smaller companies even more.  A lot of the smaller companies and suppliers got hit really hard and they're just desperately trying to stay afloat on lower revenues.  I'd wager some of them might have just said "eff this" and changed to support other industries because aerospace is just too much of a hassle.

On the other hand, a lot of senior/experienced people were let go, retired, or left for greener pastures (either elsewhere in the industry, or in other ones entirely).  That would seem to open up jobs, but many of them are for equivalent-level positions--no offense, but there's only so much you can bring on in entry-level jobs before you start making dumb mistakes.  We saw that happen years ago when we staffed up for a big new program and primarily hired people with less than five years experience.  We (since I was one of those new graduates) made a lot of dumb mistakes and learned bad habits because we didn't have enough graybeards around to keep us straight.  At least in my experience, when companies are hurting they tend to only hire when they really need to, and tend to go for experienced people just because they can usually get useful work out of them faster.

On the gripping hand, at least when it comes to hiring, the industry is facing the same problem many others are, only it refuses to acknowledge it.  Whether due to ITAR, or classified programs, or sheer stodginess, much of the industry is extremely conservative and old-fashioned.  Many of us got a taste of working from home when Covid first hit, and it's astounding how many people have moved on to other companies and other industries when much of aerospace said "everyone back in the office!".  Many of the companies that are hiring in large numbers are having a really hard time filling the positions--full-time in-the-office work (sometimes in secure facilities) and outdated management styles are big turnoffs to a lot of potential new hires.  I was talking to one company for nearly a year about a position before pulling the plug on it because it was taking so danged long.  My department alone has several open job posts but nobody's applying.



One thing I didin't ask earlier--where are you looking for jobs?  Often this industry doesn't put jobs on the big websites--you have to go seek them out and search their systems individually. Check out Boeing, Lockheed, and any other OEM or major supplier.  Don't know of any?  Look up aerospace products you know about and find out who makes major parts for them--engines, avionics, landing gear, etc. 

There's another option for getting a lot of experience and money in a short time, if you can stomach it.  Look into working for a "job shop"--essentially, a temp agency for engineers and other skilled workers.  There, you can get contracted out to various places, usually on shorter-terms (6 month to a couple years).
On the plus side, it can pay pretty well (especially since you typically qualify for time-and-a-half, and often some kind of per diem), moves you around a lot (if you like that sort of thing) and gets you a lot of experience in a short time.  Some companies use the time as a sort of extended interview process, and extend direct offers to the people they want to keep around long-term.
On the minus side, it pays well because you typically have to pay for your own medical/dental coverage, you have no job security whatsoever, and you'll usually be expected to work a ton of (well paid!) overtime. 
If you're young and single it might not be a bad thing to do for a couple years.  Gets you a solid experience base, a good start on retirement (or paying off loans) before you settle down somewhere.

[D_Dom]

Willy, in case the point hasn't been emphasized enough. Work the assignments you have to the very best of your ability including learning why things are done the way they are done.
For example, your 3D design data is used for simulation and analysis, do you understand that process in excruciating detail? If not, learn more, use that knowledge to improve your designs.
 You must demonstrate excellence before more complex tasks will be assigned.
Aerospace has no sensible upper limit to what can be achieved. Learning to contribute with peak performance is your responsibility. I can think of no higher calling than contributing to making this a multi-planet civilization.

[gtae07]

A few further thoughts...

You now have more full-time work experience than I had co-op time when I graduated; your competition is no longer "other kids fresh out of school but with internships".  You've already erased that gap and gone past it.  At this point your competition is now other engineers with 1-2 years experience; those with internship time might still have a small advantage due to overall time, but it's now much smaller than it was when y'all first graduated.  In a couple more years their internships will be all but irrelevant; what matters now is full-time work experience.

Again, don't be dismayed over being stuck with grunt work right now.  That's very common in this industry, especially in larger companies.  Heck, one of my first assignments when I changed departments and moved to my current position (with 8 years experience at the time!) was generating 3D models of parts we only had 2D drawings for (they were for older aircraft) so we could make new repair drawings, and I spent several months on that project.  It served a few purposes--I learned about those parts, what they did, how they were made, and so on--and it helped the older guys learn the new software package that I already had experience with.

Going to grad school so you're eligible for internships again might be a good idea if you're a fresh graduate with no experience and you can't find a job.  But, IMO quitting to go to grad school is stupid when you already have a job, unless maybe you have a specific area that you know you want to work on and you know that grad school is the way to get there (and in that case, don't quit; keep working and go to school part time).  Anywhere you apply in the future is going to ask why you quit a full-time job to go back to grad school and you want to be able to give them a good, solid answer that shows you have a goal in mind, not "I didn't like my job because it was boring and I wasn't changing the world".

See, my brother did that.  He was working as a biomedical engineer and decided much the same thing--his job was boring and thought grad school would give him exciting new opportunities to make a difference.  So after he got married he quit his job and became a full-time grad student.  Got his masters in mechanical engineering, wound up working for lower pay (because he was starting over) in jobs and locations just as boring and uninspiring as the one he left.  Eventually he wound up right back in the same position he had at the same company he started at, probably at least $100k poorer than if he'd just stuck it out for that time.


The best thing you can do for yourself right now is be a kickass employee and learn everything you can.  Don't sit there waiting for someone to give you work; go ask for it.  Like I said earlier, learn about everything on your drawing--talk to the welders/machinists who will be making the parts if you can, and find out what the various callouts mean--and not just the textbook definition, but also how they make it happen--tools, process, inspections, etc.   Ask the older, more experienced engineers if you can go with them next time they go down to the shop floor to look at something.  Ask if you can listen in when they're discussing technical issues.  Learn all you can about manufacturing and maintenance processes, especially if you want to get into doing design work.  You'll be a much better designer if you understand what it takes to make (or fix) the thing you designed.

 
In another 6-12 months you should easily be able to qualify as a "level 2" engineer (or whatever various companies call them) somewhere else--which incidentally is about where you'd probably be starting if you quit and spend 2-3 years and tens of thousands of dollars on grad school, then come back looking for a job.  Keep looking, keep applying--and keep working.  Bank the money (or pay off debt) instead of shelling it out on grad school.  You're right in the middle of a messed-up, crazy, ass-backwards, and totally irrational job market right now.  Don't be surprised if finding a job can take a little while.

Also, don't discount your present employer.  Your specific job right now might suck, but it's quite possible (even likely) that there are other jobs in the company that would be more enjoyable and have applicability to something you want to do in the future.  Internal candidates often have advantages over external ones; use that to your advantage. 

Another thing to note is that applying for engineering jobs (at any level) can be tricky because of how companies screen applicants.  Many use keyword routines as first-pass filters and throw out tons of qualified people.  You might also need to review your resume (or have someone who knows what they're doing look at it for you)--you could be sabotaging yourself.

[spacetraveler]

I had a job offer from a Navy shipyard basically fall into my lap, and I took it

Sounds to me like this is the issue right here. You want a better job, but you took the first one that you seemed qualified for and expended next to zero effort to obtain it.

I just took a new job a few months ago, this was after about 3-4 months of actively looking on my part, continually refining my resume, submitting about 75 applications, and conducting about 8-10 interviews, before I got an offer I really wanted.

If you want a better job, there are certainly openings out there, but changing employment is hard and requires effort on your part.

[punder]

My company Kratos is a big one, and not (yet) quite as hidebound as some others. Take a look and send in your resume.

[Raywaytut]

Finding a proper job is getting harder and harder. I've seen multiple people, with a proper degree, struggling to find work. I don't know what employers are looking for. They are expecting you to have years of experience and this implies the fact that you need to work before you were born, which is impossible. I remember that I had to learn how to write a thank you email to every single company that I've given an interview for, even though they didn't accept me. I know that this is tough and the only piece of advice that I can give to you is to never give up!

[Orbiter]

FWIW - check out NASA OSTEM internships. There's TONS of opportunities in the Summer.

[FishInferno]

FWIW - check out NASA OSTEM internships. There's TONS of opportunities in the Summer.

Today was the last day to apply I believe. I was submitting applications all day .