Author Topic: Isar Aerospace  (Read 50727 times)

Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #100 on: 10/26/2023 09:41 pm »
ISAR Aerospace is the European Relativity: Tons of money and tons of expensive PR. Except that Relativity does innovate - like many European launcher companies - while ISAR does not.

HyImpulse builds hybrid engines.
RFA builds the only small launcher with full flow staged combustion engines.
Orbex builds radial tanks with propane fuel.
PLD Space builds a microlauncher with a resuable first stage

And Isar Aerospace builds ... just a plain vanilla rocket.

First PropaLox rocket to reach orbit? Wouldn't that be at least noteworthy.

-Hybrid engine are not used for orbital launchers for a reason
-oxygen-rich Staged combustion*
-Not sure if it's revolutionary compared to just a common bulkhead, also Orbex Prime is really small.
-Miura's 5 two different engines type do not exist yet.

Europe is in a launcher crisis, it needs more operational launchers in absolute priority, not more technology demonstration programs.
« Last Edit: 10/26/2023 09:43 pm by TheKutKu »

Online trimeta

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #101 on: 10/26/2023 11:46 pm »
ISAR Aerospace is the European Relativity: Tons of money and tons of expensive PR. Except that Relativity does innovate - like many European launcher companies - while ISAR does not.

HyImpulse builds hybrid engines.
RFA builds the only small launcher with full flow staged combustion engines.
Orbex builds radial tanks with propane fuel.
PLD Space builds a microlauncher with a resuable first stage

And Isar Aerospace builds ... just a plain vanilla rocket.

First PropaLox rocket to reach orbit? Wouldn't that be at least noteworthy.

-Hybrid engine are not used for orbital launchers for a reason
-oxygen-rich Staged combustion*
-Not sure if it's revolutionary compared to just a common bulkhead, also Orbex Prime is really small.
-Miura's 5 two different engines type do not exist yet.

Europe is in a launcher crisis, it needs more operational launchers in absolute priority, not more technology demonstration programs.

Orbex also uses propalox, although admittedly Isar is probably closer to launch. Still, that means Orbex has one more innovation than Isar. One can debate whether concentric tanks are actually a positive thing, I suppose; for some reason Scottish engineers love the concept (the other Scottish company, Skyrora, uses keroxide in concentric tanks).

Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #102 on: 10/27/2023 04:31 am »
And Isar Aerospace builds ... just a plain vanilla rocket.

I know this was supposed to be a critical comment, but I can't help but see it as a good thing. I like vanilla, and I also like a launch vehicle design with no showstoppers.
« Last Edit: 10/27/2023 04:32 am by JEF_300 »
Wait, ∆V? This site will accept the ∆ symbol? How many times have I written out the word "delta" for no reason?

Offline PM3

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #103 on: 10/27/2023 06:51 am »
And Isar Aerospace builds ... just a plain vanilla rocket.

I know this was supposed to be a critical comment, but I can't help but see it as a good thing. I like vanilla, and I also like a launch vehicle design with no showstoppers.

The critical part is that they don't have a competitive advantage. Rocket business is hard, and you need some competitive edge to survive. E. g. RFA builds the largest, most fuel-efficient rocket in this class, and probably at lower cost than Isar. Or look at ABL, who also build a "vanilla" rocket - but at lowest cost and as a highly responsive launcher (and with those nice integrated cubesat deployers in stage 2 :-). And with that surprising new dual engine.

I make my living from analyzing and valuing companies, and I can't help but sensing some bad smell about Isar. It smells like too much cashburn, too shiny PR, and way too optimistic planning, which on the bottom line means some management problem. My guess is that there will be maximum one launch of Spectrum.
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Offline ringsider

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #104 on: 10/27/2023 07:02 am »
One can debate whether concentric tanks are actually a positive thing, I suppose; for some reason Scottish engineers love the concept (the other Scottish company, Skyrora, uses keroxide in concentric tanks).

The argument OrbEx make in their patent is that this technique a) subcools the propane and thus gives similar Isp to kerosene and b) removes a lot of dead mass needed when the fuels have different thermal regimes:
 https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/057796256/publication/CA3050033A1?q=Orbital%20express%20launch

Filed January 2018.

Interesting that a nearby competitor had the same idea. Coincidence probably.
« Last Edit: 10/27/2023 07:03 am by ringsider »

Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #105 on: 10/27/2023 10:16 am »
One can debate whether concentric tanks are actually a positive thing, I suppose; for some reason Scottish engineers love the concept (the other Scottish company, Skyrora, uses keroxide in concentric tanks).

The argument OrbEx make in their patent is that this technique a) subcools the propane and thus gives similar Isp to kerosene and b) removes a lot of dead mass needed when the fuels have different thermal regimes:
 https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/057796256/publication/CA3050033A1?q=Orbital%20express%20launch

Filed January 2018.

Interesting that a nearby competitor had the same idea. Coincidence probably.

Well Europe has little to no heritage in Hydrocarbon large propulsion, and when you’re starting from scratch you may as well use the best propellant, and subcooled PropaLox has better volumetric efficiency than MethaLox and KeroLox

Offline PM3

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #106 on: 11/02/2023 03:21 pm »
The Spectrum launch site at Andøya has been inaugurated today. Falsely claiming that ...

Quote
Today, the launch site operator Andøya Spaceport celebrated the opening of the first operational spaceport in continental Europe ...

which actually is Esrange, opened in January 2023.

Quote
... which will become the first launch site of the European launch service company Isar Aerospace. The spaceport is located at Nordmela on the Norwegian island of Andøya and is in the final stages towards operating capability. In an official ceremony, H.R.H. Crown Prince Haakon inaugurated the spaceport, an event which also marks a crucial milestone on Isar Aerospace’s path to its first test flight.

Fully constructed, the spaceport will host several launch pads. Isar Aerospace has exclusive access to the first launch site, which was built to Isar’s specifications, including a launch pad, payload integration facilities as well as a mission control center. This set-up guarantees greatest flexibility and planning security for Isar Aerospace and its clients in bringing small- and medium-sized satellites to space. The launch site will support the two-stage launch vehicle Spectrum, which is set to carry out final stage testing.

...

Isar Aerospace is in the final stages of preparation towards its first test flight of Spectrum: After having completed the system designs of its launch vehicle Spectrum, it currently is in the production phase of all parts of the rocket, including the flight engines. The rocket stages will then have to undergo acceptance testing, a series of tests that will verify that the systems meet all necessary requirements for flight.

https://andoyaspace.no/news-articles/andoya-spaceport-officially-opened/

This confirms that Isar Aerosoace is years away from a launch. The only thing completed is the systems design of the rocket. Now they have started producing parts, and need to learn how to build a rocket stage (2024). Then begin stage testing (2025), learn from failures, iterate (2026), and finally integrate and launch (NET late 2026).

Now we need to know their cash reserves and burn rate. They have become very lazy in publishing their financial reports (see unternehmensregister.de):

2018 report was published after 13 months
2019 report after 10 months, as it should be
2020 report after 13 months
2021 report after 21 months
2022 report not published yet

Net loss in 2021 was 21 M€ after 10 M€ in 2020, with 95 M€ cash at end of 2021.
« Last Edit: 11/04/2023 05:56 am by PM3 »
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Offline Yggdrasill

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #107 on: 11/03/2023 07:19 pm »
The Spectrum launch site at Andøya has been inaugurated today. Falsely claiming that ...

Quote
Today, the launch site operator Andøya Spaceport celebrated the opening of the first operational spaceport in continental Europe ...

which actually is Esrange, opened in January 2023.
It's just written a bit poorly. If you look at the rest of the press release, they are saying they will become the first operational spaceport, by launching a rocket to orbit. Or in other words, they expect to beat Esrange to the first launch.

Offline PM3

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #108 on: 11/27/2023 09:39 am »
There is a lot more written poorly here. Have a look at https://www.isaraerospace.com/. A collection of pure PR blurb:

Quote
Enabling the future of technology.
Driving the European commercial space push.
We are disrupting the space industry.
We are using leading technologies to disrupt traditional manufacturing processes.
We achieve maximum flexibility, unrivaled speed and high autonomy.
The most versatile small launch vehicle.
Our in-house value creation enables maximum flexibility, unrivaled speed and highest autonomy to be at the forefront of the NewSpace industry.

Space flight will shape how humans will live, work and travel tomorrow.

This is on level with the most dubious newspace startups. The company is hiding behind a big show.

"Unrivaled speed" - mentioned multiple times on ther website - translates to "slowest progress of all German rocket builders." RFA has done a full duration second stage hotfire and started building stage 1. HyImpulse - funded with just a few million Euros - is sending their suborbital demonstrator for launch to Australia. And ISAR ... has run an engine for two minutes and started producing other rocket parts. All three companies were founded in 2018.

They even don't manage to revise their 2023 launch date, which has still been reported in German media a few months ago. Even ARCA Space managed to admit that they actually don't know when they will launch. ISAR (and btw. Orbex) just went silent.
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Offline ringsider

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #109 on: 12/06/2023 06:00 pm »
« Last Edit: 12/06/2023 06:01 pm by ringsider »

Offline PM3

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #110 on: 12/14/2023 08:46 pm »
Isar Aerospace has filed the plan to change its legal status from a GmbH to AG and then to SE. Which means they will make their shares tradable and could go public.
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Offline Yggdrasill

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #111 on: 02/16/2024 05:00 pm »
The Norwegian minister of defence visited Isars facility in Ottobrunn.

https://e24-no.translate.goog/internasjonal-oekonomi/i/8JePAx/denne-raketten-er-starten-paa-et-norsk-rom-eventyr?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

The first Spectrum test rocket is supposed to leave for Andøya Spaceport in two weeks.

Offline Tywin

Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #112 on: 02/16/2024 06:42 pm »
The Norwegian minister of defence visited Isars facility in Ottobrunn.

https://e24-no.translate.goog/internasjonal-oekonomi/i/8JePAx/denne-raketten-er-starten-paa-et-norsk-rom-eventyr?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

The first Spectrum test rocket is supposed to leave for Andøya Spaceport in two weeks.


Fly this year or next?
« Last Edit: 02/16/2024 06:42 pm by Tywin »
The knowledge is power...Everything is connected...
The Turtle continues at a steady pace ...

Offline ringsider

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #113 on: 02/18/2024 08:11 am »
Photo opp of an assembled rocket on the pad to help with fundraising, but not ready for flight. They are still approx. 1-2 years away from a flight attempt, mainly because they need more money to get there.

Isar broadly stay totally silent unless they are fundraising, when they do a big PR push, which they have been doing since approx. mid-December 2023 - lots of proactive press articles, events like the Munich Security Conference, notable ministerial visitors, pictures of progress etc.

They were presenting at a Deutsche Bank funding seminar recently, and invitations to present only go to those who have a "relationship" with the bank i.e. have hired Deutsche Bank (or may hire) as a fundraising advisor:



Also the switch to a "Societas Europaea" public company format recently implies readying for an IPO, as reported by Space Intel Report:

https://www.spaceintelreport.com/europes-showcase-new-space-launch-startup-isar-aerospace-changes-legal-status-is-an-ipo-on-the-way/

Why do they need money? With 400+ staff they are burning money at ca. €40m-50m a year on staff alone, double or triple that with development costs on top, so circa €80m-120m annually.

The €155m raise from March 2023 will be gone by late summer 2024 at that burn rate, so they need more money in 2024, and a reasonable amount - another €150-200m raise (at least) to see the job through to launch.

They can depend on existing investors for some of that but they stepped up in the C round in 2023 (there was only one new investor to lead, a private fund who paid in €18m - all the rest was existing investors) so they may be tapped out or limited in how much more portfolio capacity they have for a single investment, hence the need for an investment bank to find new money.

Lastly they have ambitious plans for a new 270,000sqm factory and the CEO has been complaining about lack of state support for such facilities on LinkedIn:

« Last Edit: 02/18/2024 08:23 am by ringsider »

Online catdlr

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #114 on: 04/12/2024 05:54 am »
https://twitter.com/Erdayastronaut/status/1778546466501328963

Quote
Everyday Astronaut
@Erdayastronaut
Almost 7 hours of footage and hundreds of cuts, all to help answer one important question. How will Europe compete in this modern spaceflight era? I had the honor of visiting @rfa_space and @isaraerospace last year to answer this question, this video is going to be incredible!
It's Tony De La Rosa, ...I don't create this stuff, I just report it.

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #115 on: 05/07/2024 06:09 pm »
New video from Tim Dodd with factory tours of RFA and Isar Aerospace, comparing and contrasting the two companies' philosophies.


Offline PM3

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #116 on: 05/10/2024 07:41 pm »
This report confirms my impression of ISAR:

- They are slow.
- They don't have a comprehensible competitive advantage.
- They compensate for this by PR blurb.

RFA looks like driven by smart engineers with unique development methods, while ISAR looks like some MBA's business plan that accidentially became a rocket company.

Note that ISAR is the only of the three German rocket builders that never updated the specs of their rocket. Which is very unusual. You never know where you will end up when developing an orbital rocket, therefore the specs of allmost all new rockets change during development process. But not for ISAR's Spectrum. Which IMHO is another indication that they are stuck in an early stage of development.
« Last Edit: 05/10/2024 07:43 pm by PM3 »
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Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #117 on: 05/10/2024 10:09 pm »
This report confirms my impression of ISAR: ...
To what report are you referring? The Every day astronaut video?

I think you are really harsh.
If I'm not mistaken, ISAR aerospace started with the basis of the engine DLR developed to compare with the L75 engine. This means they started with a very solid basis for their engine. They changed from LOx Ethanol to LOx Propane.
Quote
- They are slow.
Look at 50min into the video; ISAR requires one week to produce a new iteration of their engine.
Quote
- They don't have a comprehensible competitive advantage.
LOx Propane; both autogenus pressurizing propellant's. Propane can be stored without temperature control. But it's still liquid at the temprature of LOx. So no thermal insulation between the tanks is required. So you have the same advantages as with methane, without the drawback of cryogenic stowage.
There composite tank structures are extremely light weight. Leading to a low structural mass for the rocket.
The industrialization of ISAR is more centralized than that of RFA. ...
Quote
- They compensate for this by PR blurb.
ISAR is using PR less than RFA. Have you seen them showing their launch site ...

My impression is that ISAR went for Deutsche deutlichkeit (Germen reliability) while RFA is going for the cheapest route.
Both are at roughly the same progress in their rocket development. Both are at the stage of integrated stage static firing tests. And construction of the launch site. This is where both companies are AFAIK working on this year.

I'm astonished NSF mist two news items from ISAR the last week.

Offline PM3

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #118 on: 05/11/2024 05:55 am »
RFA has done a full duration upper stage hot-fire test a year ago, and is just now preparing a first stage for testing in SaxaVord. ISAR has not even started to integrate a stage. They also don't have a launch schedule any more. ISAR's last published launch date was 2023, and that passed without notice.

Quote
Look at 50min into the video; ISAR requires one week to produce a new iteration of their engine.

That's the PR blurb section of the video. Tim Dodd tries to find out if they have some competitive edge in their development philosophy, and the answer is: blurb. That's business plan stuff, not real engineering stuff.
« Last Edit: 05/11/2024 06:06 am by PM3 »
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Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Isar Aerospace
« Reply #119 on: 05/11/2024 03:35 pm »
There was a NOTAM around the Andoya orbital launch site May 4 or 5 if I remember correctly.
ISAR build a engine test stand at Esrange. At their launch site they are nearly finished building a stage test stand.
The flame trance for the launch pad is ready, but the launch structure still needs to be delivered to Andoya.
If the upperstage test didn't happen last week, it's going to happen soon.

RFA one build a much less complicate engine test stand at Esrange, that could also perform the upperstage tests.
The current facility at Saxavord is a test stand for the RFA one first stage. To finish the launch site they require to build more facilities.

I think for both ISAR aerospace Spectrum and RFA One the maiden launch could take place in 2025.

Still no post about the other news from ISAR aerospace. ...

 

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