Author Topic: NASA News Briefing On MRO Find - Evidence suggests water currently on Mars  (Read 36092 times)

Offline simonbp

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Yeah.... Until I see some spectra of enhanced water vapor above these features, I'm not buying the liquid water story. Mars has taught us a lot about how much changes in terrain can be caused by non-aqueous or glacial methods...

Offline simonbp

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Three cheers for the robots!  Hip Hip, Hip Hip, Hip Hip HOORAY!

All the science and none of the B.S. that humans appear to require in order to get themselves out of low Earth orbit.

Well, really what it shows is just how hard it is to make a detailed examination of a process with just remote sensing. Robotic missions are great for surveying, but fairly atrocious at detailed investigation.

And if you want to see "B.S. required to get out of earth orbit", just look at the MSL budget (>$2 Billion)...

Offline demorcef

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Three cheers for the robots!  Hip Hip, Hip Hip, Hip Hip HOORAY!

All the science and none of the B.S. that humans appear to require in order to get themselves out of low Earth orbit.

Well, really what it shows is just how hard it is to make a detailed examination of a process with just remote sensing. Robotic missions are great for surveying, but fairly atrocious at detailed investigation.

And if you want to see "B.S. required to get out of earth orbit", just look at the MSL budget (>$2 Billion)...

Point taken!  What we really need is cheaper manned spaceflight and lots of unmanned probes to chart the way before hand.

Offline Blackstar

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Probably a separate topic, but given the clean environment used to build MSL, what would it take to build a vehicle that would not raise the contamination fear?

I'm probably more knowledgeable on this subject than just about anybody participating in this forum and yet I'll admit that I'm largely ignorant of this issue compared to people who actually deal with it. So I do not stand behind anything that I write below.

Planetary protection is a pretty arcane subject. Man, it gets weird. There are currently some studies underway addressing the requirements for spacecraft to different locations (there's an icy bodies--i.e. moons of the gas giants--study going on right now). Expect that you'll see a new study about planetary protection requirements for Mars in the next few years, because that's going to be important for sample return. And expect that you'll probably find it impossible to understand what that study actually says.

Sterilizing a spacecraft is expensive. Simple sterilization involves swabbing down the exterior surfaces and then (I think) gassing them. But for high sterilization requirements you have to bake the spacecraft at high temperature. Baking is really expensive. What they generally have to do is bake the parts that can touch the surface. But in some cases they have to consider what would happen if the spacecraft crashed and delivered contaminants to the surface.

(For the original question, keep in mind that spacecraft clean rooms are mostly intended to limit particle contamination. You don't want dust in your optics or sensitive instruments. But they don't keep out bacteria.)

For Mars--I think--the requirement is that you only have to do the high level of sterilization if it is a life detection mission. In other words, you don't want to bring bugs to the surface and then detect those bugs. With Phoenix they only sterilized the arm and scoop (and the sample instruments). MSL is not a life detection mission, so it did not undergo the high sterilization required for a life detection spacecraft. (In MSL's case I think they essentially sterilized it with gas and maybe with a rubdown solution, not heat.)

Now something I don't know is if MSL could be sterilized to the higher requirements. It is possible that if you wanted to put life detection equipment on there, you would have to design some things differently (for instance, you might need to change some materials that might not handle high temperatures well).

Sorry I cannot be more specific than that. Maybe somebody else has better information.
« Last Edit: 08/04/2011 08:40 pm by Blackstar »

Offline psloss

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Making the top half of the TV news here........as much as they've ballsed it up as per usual ;D
Unlucky timing (well, sort of) for this to come out today here, given the business news.

Offline ChileVerde

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Probably a separate topic, but given the clean environment used to build MSL, what would it take to build a vehicle that would not raise the contamination fear?

For Mars--I think--the requirement is that you only have to do the high level of sterilization if it is a life detection mission. In other words, you don't want to bring bugs to the surface and then detect those bugs.


IIRC, the Viking landers underwent an extended soak in an atmosphere of ethylene oxide as well as baking.

Lessee: history.nasa.gov/SP-4902/ch5.htm
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Offline gospacex

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God, how we are supposed to EVER land humans anywhere if we fear contamination? Will we also bake humans? Will we make it a requirement that humans live all their lives on Mars in triple-layered steel shells "because they can contaminate possible Martian life"???

Offline Danderman

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The photo looks to me like darker material blown over sand.

Offline gospacex

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I say lets land some cow manure on Mars! Lets contaminate!!! :D

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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I'm beginning to feel that MSR is the only way to finally resolve this issue.  That will not only mean risking contaminating Mars with Earth-origin organisms, it will also mean risking contaminating Earth with Mars-origin organisms.

Well, sometimes you have to take risks; You can only act to mitigate them. :-\
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Offline Rocket Science

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Water, eh? So when are we leaving? I must remember to bring some tea bags for Chris… ;D
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Online ugordan

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God, how we are supposed to EVER land humans anywhere if we fear contamination? Will we also bake humans?

Once that big day comes and we finally start landing humans on Mars, this requirement will obviously be out the door. Why is that so hard to grasp?

That doesn't mean we have to use every other opportunity *before* that moment to contaminate away, especially since we're so eager to search for any indigenous life there.

Offline Bubbinski

This is an exciting find if it is true.  Sounds like Newton Crater would be a great place for a follow on probe or manned mission to try to confirm this.
I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

Offline gospacex

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God, how we are supposed to EVER land humans anywhere if we fear contamination? Will we also bake humans?

Once that big day comes and we finally start landing humans on Mars, this requirement will obviously be out the door. Why is that so hard to grasp?

If we will eventually contaminate Mars with Earth microbes, what's the point in spending millions on preventing the inevitable?

Quote
That doesn't mean we have to use every other opportunity *before* that moment to contaminate away, especially since we're so eager to search for any indigenous life there.

Considering how much it costs, I disagree.

Offline Chris Bergin

Water, eh? So when are we leaving? I must remember to bring some tea bags for Chris… ;D

Milk and two sugars please ;)

A number of people seem to be getting rattled by the thread title, so edited it a bit.
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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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A number of people seem to be getting rattled by the thread title, so edited it a bit.

Chris, I recommend that you amend that to "Evidence suggests water currently on Mars".  As it stands the title reads rather garbled.

That aside, am I the only one looking forward to Paul Spudis and Bob Zubrin squaring up for a Moon First vs. Mars First debate in the light of the MRO and Chandaryaan-1 findings?
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Offline Blackstar

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IIRC, the Viking landers underwent an extended soak in an atmosphere of ethylene oxide as well as baking.


Yeah, but the standards have been changed since then.

Offline Blackstar

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God, how we are supposed to EVER land humans anywhere if we fear contamination? Will we also bake humans? Will we make it a requirement that humans live all their lives on Mars in triple-layered steel shells "because they can contaminate possible Martian life"???

You think we're going to send humans anywhere? Have you been paying attention the past two years?

Offline Blackstar

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That aside, am I the only one looking forward to Paul Spudis and Bob Zubrin squaring up for a Moon First vs. Mars First debate in the light of the MRO and Chandaryaan-1 findings?

I'd prefer to have it discussed by more rational heads.

Offline Space Pete

Now here's a Martian business opportunity:

Fly to Mars and collect some of this water, bring it back to Earth, filter it, and sell it as "Mars tonic water: A refreshing drink from another world".

They could even add some red colouring (sugar free, of course) to give it an authentic feel! :D

*Disclaimer: If some wacky NuSpace business actually decides to do this, I will not be held responsible when we all grow three heads. ;D
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