Author Topic: Impulse Space  (Read 30394 times)

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Impulse Space
« on: 09/18/2021 05:50 am »
https://twitter.com/lrocket/status/1439078509872234497

Quote
The website for my new company just went live, and we’re hiring!  Go to impulsespace.com and check it out.  We are developing in-space propulsion and ready to hire great people.

Quote from: https://www.impulsespace.com/
ECONOMICAL AND AGILE LAST-MILE SPACE PAYLOAD DELIVERY
Space is more accessible than ever, but efficiently moving payloads into higher energy orbits remains a challenge. At Impulse Space Propulsion we're changing that by providing agile, economical capabilities to access any orbit.
« Last Edit: 02/20/2023 02:09 am by gongora »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #1 on: 09/18/2021 10:57 am »
twitter.com/john_gardi/status/1439081226669858821

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Each is a single piece?

https://twitter.com/lrocket/status/1439082758966374403

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Yes, still on the build plate post print.  These are development units designed to operate at sea-level.  Flight engines will have glorious high area ratio nozzle skirts for optimal performance in the vacuum of space

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #2 on: 09/18/2021 04:24 pm »
Mueller's reply to Musk on propellants...

Quote
Nitrous oxide and Ethane stored as liquids

https://twitter.com/lrocket/status/1439263317533462530

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #3 on: 09/18/2021 04:40 pm »
LEO space tugs...

Quote
Yes, we want to provide up to 2 km/sec of Delta V, enough to move anywhere in LEO

https://twitter.com/lrocket/status/1439081770775769091

Offline Mandella

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #4 on: 09/18/2021 05:06 pm »
Great to see Mueller back in the game.

This is going to be one to watch...

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #5 on: 09/19/2021 09:32 am »
The OTV market is still up for grabs, nice to see few companies working on them. Combined with fuel depots which others are working on and we have makings of vibrant in space transport network.

Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: 09/19/2021 05:31 pm by TrevorMonty »

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #6 on: 09/19/2021 12:30 pm »
He must have been inspired by Dawn Aerospace.
Looks dual fluid regenerative cooling to me. Integrated powerhead turbo pump?
« Last Edit: 09/19/2021 12:35 pm by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline Daniels30

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #7 on: 11/10/2021 12:33 pm »

A couple of BTS shots of Impulse with Mueller.
“There are a thousand things that can happen when you go to light a rocket engine, and only one of them is good.” -
Tom Mueller, SpaceX Co founder and Propulsion CTO.

Offline Navier–Stokes

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #8 on: 03/09/2022 06:51 pm »

Offline matthewkantar

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #9 on: 03/09/2022 08:26 pm »
A seven(?) month old company showing a row of Mach diamonds on the test stand. Holy cow.
« Last Edit: 03/09/2022 08:27 pm by matthewkantar »

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #10 on: 03/09/2022 10:03 pm »
A seven(?) month old company showing a row of Mach diamonds on the test stand. Holy cow.
I think it was only 9 months from the founding of SpaceX to the first Merlin test fire.
 Tom seems to be his only competition.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline nicp

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #11 on: 03/10/2022 12:01 pm »
Looking at the engine on the right, why is the pipe second from left flattened near the engine bell?
For Vectron!

Online Robotbeat

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #12 on: 03/10/2022 03:03 pm »
A seven(?) month old company showing a row of Mach diamonds on the test stand. Holy cow.
Not particularly hard for a very small engine and a team of funded and driven people who know what they’re doing in Mojave.

They have some idea of what a good injector geometry might be. They can whip up a chamber design in CAD, print it off, clean it up and fire. The test stand plumbing is off the shelf stuff. They’re using ethane and nitrous oxide, so the material requirements aren’t exotic at all. (Nitrous is pretty common for racing, etc). At 500-600psi, ethane is liquid at room temperature (and ~700-750psi for nitrous), so they don’t even need cryo handling capability (valves and fittings get annoying with cryo), although probably stuff will get cold in places. The nice thing is that your propellant isn’t constantly boiling off. But it does fully evaporate at sea level (well, Mojave ;) ) pressure, which is nice, too, as you don’t have to worry about residues.

So no, not super surprising to me. Even student groups are doing liquid rocket engines, now, even using LOx.
« Last Edit: 03/10/2022 03:07 pm by Robotbeat »
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Offline su27k

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #13 on: 04/01/2022 02:54 am »
Impulse Space is betting on a future where launch is cheap

Quote from: Eric Berger
Given their background at SpaceX, the leaders of Impulse Space fully believe the launch company will ultimately realize its goal of a large, fully reusable rocket in Starship. And they recognize that the launch industry is changing in response to this. Matsumori was an advisory board member at Relativity Space for three years, a company that is also seeking to build the fully reusable rocket with its Terran R vehicle. Future versions of Blue Origin's New Glenn rocket will also likely have a reusable first and second stage.

"This is fundamental for us," Matsumori said. "The cost per kilogram, across the board, is going down, especially with the vehicles that are coming. And Starship is certainly coming. The balance between what you launch from Earth versus what you do in orbit is starting to shift. That really means that you're going to do more in space."

<snip>

"One of the things I've always thought about, even going back to my SpaceX days, is what happens to space if the cost of access to space is essentially free?" Matsumori said. "What can one imagine happening to the space economy? And the answer is that there are some capabilities before that were challenging, such as pharmaceuticals, or materials, or semiconductors. If the cost of access gets that low, then these industries are possible."

Offline sdsds

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #14 on: 04/01/2022 04:09 am »
The discussion of delta-v rather than Isp sure makes it seem like they are thinking about a specific vehicle (tug). The website graphic at https://www.impulsespace.com/ also suggests that. (Screengrab attached.) With that delta-v budget they might take a passenger from GTO to GEO, and conceivably still have enough gas in the tank to then grapple a disabled comsat and move it to a graveyard orbit. Is there money to be made by doing that? Or is this really about deploying a lower orbit constellation with a reduced number of launches?
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Offline su27k

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #15 on: 06/19/2022 03:51 am »
Impulse Space raises an additional $10 million for orbital transfer vehicles

Quote from: SpaceNews
In-space transportation company Impulse Space, which raised $20 million in a seed round earlier this year, announced June 17 it raised another $10 million to help accelerate work on orbital transfer vehicles.

Impulse Space said it raised $10 million from venture fund Lux Capital, which invests in “frontier technologies” like space. The company announced a $20 million seed round March 30 led by Founders Fund.

<snip>

“With funding from Lux Capital, Impulse continues to build on a solid financial foundation and an equally strong foundation of the amazing people supporting us,” Mueller said in a statement about the new funding.

Offline su27k

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #16 on: 07/19/2022 03:40 pm »
https://www.impulsespace.com/mars

Quote
Impulse Space is partnering with Relativity to perform the first ever commercial landing on the red planet.

The integrated Cruise Vehicle, Entry Capsule, and Mars Lander developed by Impulse Space will launch in 2024 on the Relativity Terran R launch vehicle. After traveling through interplanetary space for over half a year, the Cruise Vehicle will inject the Entry Capsule into the correct landing trajectory and detach. The Entry Capsule will use the proven combination of heatshield and parachute to slow down enough to safely deploy the Mars Lander into freefall. The lander will then perform a propulsive landing using purpose-built engines developed in-house at Impulse Space, completing the first commercial payload delivery to the surface of another planet.

The page also has graphics for the cruise stage and lander.

Offline su27k

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #17 on: 07/19/2022 03:41 pm »
Hard to see the business case here, the only thing I can think of is that they think NASA will start a CLPS equivalent program for Mars cargo delivery.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #18 on: 07/19/2022 04:47 pm »
Hard to see the business case here, the only thing I can think of is that they think NASA will start a CLPS equivalent program for Mars cargo delivery.
There are customers other than NASA for a provider with proven Mars EDL capability. The ESA comes to mind with their Rosalind Franklin rover looking for a ride to the Martian surface.
 

Offline Redclaws

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #19 on: 07/19/2022 04:49 pm »
Hard to see the business case here, the only thing I can think of is that they think NASA will start a CLPS equivalent program for Mars cargo delivery.

I think it may be limited - Mueller is pretty wealthy and seems to partly just want to do this.

Offline edzieba

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #20 on: 07/19/2022 05:50 pm »
Hard to see the business case here, the only thing I can think of is that they think NASA will start a CLPS equivalent program for Mars cargo delivery.
From the Ars article:
Quote
The Mars mission was conceived last year when Relativity's vice president of engineering and manufacturing, Zach Dunn, reached out to Mueller. [...]
The companies devised a mission in which the Terran-R vehicle would boost a Mars Cruise Vehicle developed by Impulse Space into a trajectory toward Mars.
[...] [Tim Ellis] said he wanted to make a statement by putting a Mars-bound payload on the first launch of the Terran-R rocket. Ellis founded Relativity Space partly because he was inspired by what SpaceX and Elon Musk were trying to do to make humanity a multiplanetary species. This commercial mission, he said, would move the needle forward.
It sounds more like this is intended more as a showoff demo mission a-la Falcon Heavy flight 1, with commercial applications a nice bonus if it succeeds.

Online Robotbeat

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #21 on: 07/19/2022 05:55 pm »
Oh, this is exciting!!

Having more than just SpaceX focusing on Mars will help bring needed competition and make it more feasible for NASA to rely on commercialization (including its lower costs) for Mars.

There have been so many Moon-focused space companies, and even more asteroid focused ones than Mars.

Super duper excited by all this.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline StormtrooperJoe

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #22 on: 07/19/2022 06:01 pm »
Very cool. I am guessing this is too small to carry ExoMars, but it would be nice if something like this could be used to eventually get ExoMars to it's intended destination.

Offline Cheapchips

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #23 on: 07/20/2022 08:12 am »
Very cool. I am guessing this is too small to carry ExoMars, but it would be nice if something like this could be used to eventually get ExoMars to it's intended destination.

That's an interesting thought.  They're using a Phoenix aeroshell,  so that gives us some idea of the maximum size?  Phoenix itself was around 1.5m diameter undeployed.  Subsequent missions had larger payloads and/or larger Phoenix derived shells, so it's a little woolly.

Lockheed Martin build all of the NASA mission shells. Presumably Impulse have signed a contract with them?

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #24 on: 07/20/2022 07:45 pm »
Very cool. I am guessing this is too small to carry ExoMars, but it would be nice if something like this could be used to eventually get ExoMars to it's intended destination.
Ideally candidate to deliver larger more capable Ingenuity MK2. Development time frame is tight but worth NASA going for if they can get cheap ride to Mars.
« Last Edit: 07/21/2022 01:30 am by zubenelgenubi »

Offline su27k

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #25 on: 09/21/2022 01:33 am »
https://twitter.com/GoToImpulse/status/1572013484334010368

Quote
Is there a sufficient market to economically sustain a commercial, scientific Mars lander? Here's Aaron answering this Instagram #AskMeAnything.

The answer of course is "yes", so I guess CMPS here we come?

Offline ParabolicSnark

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #26 on: 10/12/2022 11:37 pm »
Looks like Impulse is looking to expand quite a bit: they have 22 job requisitions open, including 2 particularly interesting ones:
 - Turbomachinery Development Engineer: https://impulsespace.pinpointhq.com/en/jobs/56785
 - Turbomachinery Engineer - Aerodynamic/Hydrodynamic Design: https://impulsespace.pinpointhq.com/en/jobs/56786

So it looks like they're bringing turbomachinery in house, as evident by the fact that they're looking for aero/hydrodynamicists. If they were buying or operating turbopumps, the development engineer role itself would be sufficient. It also indicates that they're looking at "conventional" turbomachinery and not electric "turbo"pumps since they specify hot gas turbine rotors.

I'm curious what this indicates. Their business has been oriented towards space propulsion for last-mile space tugs and landers, neither of which would trade particularly well for turbopumps. That implies they're looking to make a much larger engine.

Did Tom get bored with the little thrusters already? Are they looking to compete directly with Ursa Major? Is this related to the contracts with Relativity and perhaps assisting them with Aeon R (gross speculation on that front)?

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #27 on: 11/14/2022 10:25 pm »
twitter.com/gotoimpulse/status/1592270182256611328

Quote
Our "Saiph" thruster firing in our vacuum test chamber

#Impulse #GoToImpulse #AccessAnyOrbit #Propulsion #PropulsionTest #Engines #Thrust

https://twitter.com/lrocket/status/1592294834261614592

Quote
Our current thrusters are named after stars in the Orion constellation.  Saiph is the small blue star below Rigel in this illustration.  Saiph is our 5 lbf (22 N) thrust engine and Rigel is our 180 lbf (800 N) thrust engine that will be used to land on Mars   @GoToImpulse

Offline edzieba

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #28 on: 11/21/2022 01:36 pm »
twitter.com/gotoimpulse/status/1592270182256611328

Quote
Our "Saiph" thruster firing in our vacuum test chamber

#Impulse #GoToImpulse #AccessAnyOrbit #Propulsion #PropulsionTest #Engines #Thrust

https://twitter.com/lrocket/status/1592294834261614592

Quote
Our current thrusters are named after stars in the Orion constellation.  Saiph is the small blue star below Rigel in this illustration.  Saiph is our 5 lbf (22 N) thrust engine and Rigel is our 180 lbf (800 N) thrust engine that will be used to land on Mars   @GoToImpulse
That video captures an effect I don't think I've seen visualised before!
Watch the entrance to the nozzle throat. As the engine starts and warms up, the chamber immediately above the throat starts to glow (radiative cooling regime), the upper portion of the throat, and the upper portion of the nozzle bell remain dark (conductive cooling with propellant flow), and the lower portion of the bell also starts to glow (radiative cooling).
But when the engine shuts down, you can see the throat almost immediately start to glow. This is where heat soak from the hot inner wall is making its way to the outer wall now that the coolant (propellant) flow has ceased! You can clearly see from this how engines can RUD at the moment of shutdown as well as during startup due to the change in thermal environment.

Offline su27k

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #29 on: 11/24/2022 03:36 am »
https://twitter.com/GoToImpulse/status/1595447150347190274

Quote
Rigel-M thrusters (adapted for Mars atmosphere). Design integrates entire fluid circuit into single printed part, eliminates need for tubing, ducts, etc. Running units through development testing before integrating onto our Mars lander prototype vehicle for Earth hover testing.

Offline su27k

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #30 on: 12/07/2022 02:09 am »
https://twitter.com/GoToImpulse/status/1600291469184897025

Quote
Ongoing 'Saiph' thruster vacuum testing.

#Impulse #GoToImpulse #AccessAnyOrbit #Propulsion

Offline su27k

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #31 on: 01/05/2023 03:19 am »
https://twitter.com/TechCrunch/status/1610778270533828611

Quote
Impulse Space will hitch a ride on SpaceX’s Transporter-9 for first mission later this year https://tcrn.ch/3Zd1xFW by @breadfrom


Impulse Space announces first orbital transfer vehicle mission

Quote from: SpaceNews
Impulse Space announced Jan. 4 it will launch its first orbital transfer vehicle late this year on a SpaceX rideshare mission.

Impulse Space said its LEO Express-1 mission, using a transfer vehicle it is developing called Mira, is manifested for launch on SpaceX’s Transporter-9 rideshare mission currently scheduled for launch in the fourth quarter of 2023. LEO Express-1 will carry a primary payload for an undisclosed customer.

Barry Matsumori, chief operating officer of Impulse Space, said in an interview that the mission can accommodate additional payloads, like cubesats. The mission profile is still being finalized, but he said the vehicle, after making some initial deployments, may raise its orbit, then lower it to demonstrate operations in what’s known as very low Earth orbit, around 300 kilometers.
« Last Edit: 01/07/2023 02:52 am by su27k »

Online Robotbeat

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #32 on: 01/05/2023 12:36 pm »
Looks like Impulse is looking to expand quite a bit: they have 22 job requisitions open, including 2 particularly interesting ones:
 - Turbomachinery Development Engineer: https://impulsespace.pinpointhq.com/en/jobs/56785
 - Turbomachinery Engineer - Aerodynamic/Hydrodynamic Design: https://impulsespace.pinpointhq.com/en/jobs/56786

So it looks like they're bringing turbomachinery in house, as evident by the fact that they're looking for aero/hydrodynamicists. If they were buying or operating turbopumps, the development engineer role itself would be sufficient. It also indicates that they're looking at "conventional" turbomachinery and not electric "turbo"pumps since they specify hot gas turbine rotors.

I'm curious what this indicates. Their business has been oriented towards space propulsion for last-mile space tugs and landers, neither of which would trade particularly well for turbopumps. That implies they're looking to make a much larger engine.

Did Tom get bored with the little thrusters already? Are they looking to compete directly with Ursa Major? Is this related to the contracts with Relativity and perhaps assisting them with Aeon R (gross speculation on that front)?
Tugs and landers trade very good with turbopumps, and the Soviets used them (or developed them, at least) for these roles. The US chose just pressure fed for these roles.

But this is 2023, making turbopumps is no longer a nation-state-level project. Turbopumps reduce dry mass a LOT compared to pressure fed and increase Isp as well, and these are very useful qualities for tugs and landers alike.

Depending on how serious Impulse is about Mars, a CO/O2 turbopump engine would be enabling for ISRU-fueled rockets and reusable landers. No one has done that, no one else is doing it. We’ve just demonstrated oxygen and CO fuel production on Mars, and this straightforward process would enable refueling anywhere on the planet without even having to dig in the soil an inch, just suck in CO2 with a compressor. Without being pumpfed, the performance would be terrible, but if pumpfed it could be an awesome option.
« Last Edit: 01/05/2023 01:03 pm by Robotbeat »
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To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Online Solarsail

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #33 on: 01/05/2023 10:06 pm »
Don't the long loiter times and reliability requirements of tugs and landers fit better with electric pumps than with turbopumps?  And electric pumped engines get less massive below a thrust of 20 kN, if I recall the electric pumps thread...  Perhaps that idea that Impulse will be supporting development work on Aeon R sound superficially sound to me.

Offline J-B

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Re: Impulse Space Propulsion
« Reply #34 on: 02/19/2023 02:19 pm »
https://www.compositesworld.com/news/impulse-space-to-launch-first-orbital-service-vehicle-in-2023-using-cfrp-tanks

Q&A with Impulse Space COO
CW Senior Technical Editor, Ginger Gardiner, spoke with Impulse Space COO, Barry Matsumori, about the company’s planned vehicles and potential use of carbon fiber-reinforced composites.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #35 on: 03/15/2023 06:01 pm »
https://twitter.com/lrocket/status/1636056835995357184

Quote
This is SN1 Saiph 5lb thruster, ready to start qualification testing.  In development we put over 40,000 pulses and 50,000 seconds of burn duration on the Saiph thrusters.  @GoToImpulse

Offline Conexion Espacial

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #36 on: 05/18/2023 05:37 pm »
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1659237702380802049
Quote

The integrated Cruise Vehicle, Entry Capsule, and Mars Lander developed by Impulse Space will launch in 2026 on the Relativity Terran R launch vehicle. After traveling through interplanetary space for over half a year, the Cruise Vehicle will inject the Entry Capsule into the correct landing trajectory and detach. The Entry Capsule will use the proven combination of heatshield and parachute to slow down enough to safely deploy the Mars Lander into freefall. The lander will then perform a propulsive landing using purpose-built engines developed in-house at Impulse Space, completing the first commercial payload delivery to the surface of another planet.
https://www.impulsespace.com/mars
I publish information in Spanish about space and rockets.
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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #37 on: 05/18/2023 09:29 pm »
Just looking off the size of their vehicle and the size compared to the 4" mounting holes on the slip table, it looks like the bus of the sat is 28"x28"x40ish"? and the solar panel is around 72"x48"?

https://twitter.com/GoToImpulse/status/1658911181057429504

Not sure how this system plays with the SpaceX rideshare 24" Full Plate Bolt pattern tho

Offline gongora

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #38 on: 05/30/2023 05:17 pm »

Offline Hug

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #39 on: 06/01/2023 03:24 pm »
Good convo; Mueller is always going to have fun things to say (propulsion engineers have the best presents). Anyways, Helios is their next tug after Mira. It's a ~$20M methalox stage designed around delivering 4-5 tons from LEO to GEO (direct). With 5 tons payload; you would expect a wet mass of around 21 tons including payload. Designed around being put on a cheap Starship rideshare launch to compete with the HLVs. Although ridesharing with a cryogenic stage in fairing feels wack. But I kinda do like math here. VC4 is the reference point for use, $100M? Starlink Starship rideshare would be nice, but would inclination work?

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #40 on: 06/23/2023 04:15 pm »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #41 on: 06/23/2023 10:26 pm »
Interview with Tom Mueller about Impulse, SpaceX etc

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/manifest-space-with-morgan-brennan/id1680523433?i=1000618013896
Tom thinks cloud servers will move to space as they are so power hungry.

He also developed on NG's TR107 1,1Mlbs LOX/RP1 engine which unfortunately never found a LV. 

Sent from my SM-T733 using Tapatalk


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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #42 on: 06/28/2023 06:44 am »
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/27/spacex-vet-tom-mueller-impulse-space-target-service-economy-in-orbit.html

Quote
SpaceX veteran Tom Mueller targets space service economy with tug business
PUBLISHED TUE, JUN 27 202312:54 PM EDT
Simona Riccardi
@IN/SRICCARDI/
@SIMONA__G
Morgan Brennan
@MORGANLBRENNAN

KEY POINTS

Tom Mueller, who once spearheaded SpaceX’s rocket engine and reusability development, is betting on the in-space services economy with his new company.

Impulse Space, founded in 2021, builds space tugs that can move cargo to different orbits.

So far, Impulse Space has raised $30 million in seed funding last year from investors such as Peter Thiel’s Founders Fund and Lux Capital. It’s currently embarking on a Series A round.

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #43 on: 06/28/2023 12:15 pm »
Interview with Tom Mueller about Impulse, SpaceX etc

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/manifest-space-with-morgan-brennan/id1680523433?i=1000618013896
Tom thinks cloud servers will move to space as they are so power hungry.

I would always respect Tom's opinions on anything aerospace but I come from the EE side and this comment puzzles me. One of the more costly elements of server farms is heat rejection which becomes far more problematic in space. For a cost sensitive, power hungry, cooling intensive commodity service it really puzzles me why he thinks any aspect of it is helped by being in space. Heck, has he ever tried lifting a basic 2U rack server?  ;D

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #44 on: 06/28/2023 01:10 pm »
Interview with Tom Mueller about Impulse, SpaceX etc

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/manifest-space-with-morgan-brennan/id1680523433?i=1000618013896
Tom thinks cloud servers will move to space as they are so power hungry.

I would always respect Tom's opinions on anything aerospace but I come from the EE side and this comment puzzles me. One of the more costly elements of server farms is heat rejection which becomes far more problematic in space. For a cost sensitive, power hungry, cooling intensive commodity service it really puzzles me why he thinks any aspect of it is helped by being in space. Heck, has he ever tried lifting a basic 2U rack server?  ;D
I'd love to see a good study of TCO of compute-in-space.
_IF_ you start with a demand for a 100% renewable powered compute (ground solar/wind), you need to take into consideration the day/night cycle, yearly insolation variation, associated energy storage, possibly transmission, etc.
When you put it into space, you can pack everything into one optimized package. I'm curious how competitive it'd be.
« Last Edit: 06/28/2023 01:12 pm by JayWee »

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #45 on: 06/28/2023 02:29 pm »
Interview with Tom Mueller about Impulse, SpaceX etc

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/manifest-space-with-morgan-brennan/id1680523433?i=1000618013896
Tom thinks cloud servers will move to space as they are so power hungry.

I would always respect Tom's opinions on anything aerospace but I come from the EE side and this comment puzzles me. One of the more costly elements of server farms is heat rejection which becomes far more problematic in space. For a cost sensitive, power hungry, cooling intensive commodity service it really puzzles me why he thinks any aspect of it is helped by being in space. Heck, has he ever tried lifting a basic 2U rack server?  ;D
Extremely low cost space launch means you can ALSO launch heavy radiators cheaply.

I’ve thought a lot about this. A basic budget 1U server has a value density of $100/kg, one stuffed with high performance components is $1000/kg, and if you actually build the server like you’re trying to make it lightweight, you can build them even denser like a cellphone is about $5000/kg, whereas Starship aims for under $10/kg, so this is definitely within the realm of possibility.

Starlink satellites are rejecting heat from their buses directly, they also have super cheap solar panels, and their cost of electricity might be comparable to terrestrial power when you put them in the right orbit for the 2nd generation satellites on Starship.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #46 on: 06/28/2023 04:05 pm »
Interview with Tom Mueller about Impulse, SpaceX etc

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/manifest-space-with-morgan-brennan/id1680523433?i=1000618013896
Tom thinks cloud servers will move to space as they are so power hungry.

I would always respect Tom's opinions on anything aerospace but I come from the EE side and this comment puzzles me. One of the more costly elements of server farms is heat rejection which becomes far more problematic in space. For a cost sensitive, power hungry, cooling intensive commodity service it really puzzles me why he thinks any aspect of it is helped by being in space. Heck, has he ever tried lifting a basic 2U rack server?  ;D
Extremely low cost space launch means you can ALSO launch heavy radiators cheaply.

I’ve thought a lot about this. A basic budget 1U server has a value density of $100/kg, one stuffed with high performance components is $1000/kg, and if you actually build the server like you’re trying to make it lightweight, you can build them even denser like a cellphone is about $5000/kg, whereas Starship aims for under $10/kg, so this is definitely within the realm of possibility.

Starlink satellites are rejecting heat from their buses directly, they also have super cheap solar panels, and their cost of electricity might be comparable to terrestrial power when you put them in the right orbit for the 2nd generation satellites on Starship.

So maybe instead of 1000x more expensive than terrestrial a server CPU hour in space might be only 200x more expensive. What is the BENEFIT of a CPU hour in space vs on the ground that is so great that makes anyone even consider this?

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #47 on: 06/28/2023 04:46 pm »
Because ultimately you can get power and cooling and perhaps globally accessible data via lasers for cheaper than terrestrial. You can use lasers to directly access the Starlink constellation. If space based solar power is even close to closing, you can just access that energy directly in space, eliminating the need for a power transmitter, power receiver on the ground, transmission on the ground from that receiver to the broader terrestrial grid. You save a factor of 2 or 3 transmission inefficiency plus the need for a kilometer scale transmitter and receiver and all the expensive RF electronics associated with that.

I think it’s feasible for radiators to be cheap enough to make all that viable, and potentially competitive with terrestrial servers.

Ultimately, it will be necessary if you assume terawatts of electricity being used for computation in the future.
« Last Edit: 06/28/2023 05:04 pm by Robotbeat »
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #48 on: 06/28/2023 05:10 pm »
Because ultimately you can get power and cooling and perhaps globally accessible data via lasers for cheaper than terrestrial.

LOL, ok. At this point let's just agree to disagree because we aren't even in the same solar system in terms of world view.

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #49 on: 06/28/2023 05:34 pm »
Because ultimately you can get power and cooling and perhaps globally accessible data via lasers for cheaper than terrestrial.

LOL, ok. At this point let's just agree to disagree because we aren't even in the same solar system in terms of world view.
Have you updated your worldview on this? Just run some numbers. Starlink gen2s may cost around $100/kg. Starlink v1 was $1000/kg.

They’re using commodity solar cells probably costing about 20-30¢/Watt, and using a German built stringer (used for making commodity terrestrial utility scale solar modules for 30-40¢/Watt) to solder them up into spacecraft arrays. They’re not manufacturing the satellites by 3D printing or expensive CNC machining, but by mass manufacturing stamped metal or molding, like how you mass-manufacture automobiles. We ARE in a different solar system already…
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #50 on: 07/04/2023 01:23 am »
https://twitter.com/GoToImpulse/status/1676025311744622593
Quote
Flight preparations are underway!

The photo shows one test axis of the Structural Protoqualification Random Vibration and Sine Burst test campaign to qualify our Mira spacecraft serial number 2 for flight in October 2023.

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #51 on: 07/04/2023 02:46 pm »
Interview with Tom Mueller about Impulse, SpaceX etc

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/manifest-space-with-morgan-brennan/id1680523433?i=1000618013896
Tom thinks cloud servers will move to space as they are so power hungry.

He also developed on NG's TR107 1,1Mlbs LOX/RP1 engine which unfortunately never found a LV. 

Sent from my SM-T733 using Tapatalk
It hard to find something if it's buried  it 6 feet under.

Offline edzieba

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #52 on: 07/06/2023 02:34 pm »
Because ultimately you can get power and cooling and perhaps globally accessible data via lasers for cheaper than terrestrial.
Power very arguably. For comms, terrestrial optical fibre links beat satellite laser links up and down the street any day of the week, and all your interconnects are also terrestrial. Your server remains local to your customers rather than whipping out of view every few minutes (and stuck on the other side of the planet for a good chunk of the orbit) negating any local latency advantages, etc. If you want to avoid the "server runs away all the time" issue by putting a sever on every satellite and porting server state between each to 'hover' the session in place, you have no added even harsher bandwidth requirements to the system for the ISLs (need to synchronise possible terabytes to petabytes between clusters every few minutes) and insane architectures to ensure coherency.
Plus needing to actually access your servers occasionally for maintenance and upgrades. If you're willing to forgo easy access to hardware, you may as well skip the rocket launch and dump your enclosed server room in the ocean a'la Project Natick instead, and take advantage of free cooling (power savings!), and avoid the disadvantages of power and comms. And you can still pull the whole thing back out for re-use afterwards too.

Putting servers in orbit basically adds a bunch of extra headaches and makes everything more difficult, based only on a potential saving on bulk solar power (which you then probably need to waste on driving active cooling anyway).

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #53 on: 07/07/2023 06:23 am »
Because ultimately you can get power and cooling and perhaps globally accessible data via lasers for cheaper than terrestrial.
Power very arguably. For comms, terrestrial optical fibre links beat satellite laser links up and down the street any day of the week, and all your interconnects are also terrestrial. Your server remains local to your customers rather than whipping out of view every few minutes (and stuck on the other side of the planet for a good chunk of the orbit) negating any local latency advantages, etc. If you want to avoid the "server runs away all the time" issue by putting a sever on every satellite and porting server state between each to 'hover' the session in place, you have no added even harsher bandwidth requirements to the system for the ISLs (need to synchronise possible terabytes to petabytes between clusters every few minutes) and insane architectures to ensure coherency.
Plus needing to actually access your servers occasionally for maintenance and upgrades. If you're willing to forgo easy access to hardware, you may as well skip the rocket launch and dump your enclosed server room in the ocean a'la Project Natick instead, and take advantage of free cooling (power savings!), and avoid the disadvantages of power and comms. And you can still pull the whole thing back out for re-use afterwards too.

Putting servers in orbit basically adds a bunch of extra headaches and makes everything more difficult, based only on a potential saving on bulk solar power (which you then probably need to waste on driving active cooling anyway).

While this is all becoming a bit off-thread, the only thing wrong with GEO cloud computing specifically is latency (and the requisite terrestrial transmitter power).  You have an easier time with sun tracking and terrestrial receiver tracking which means you avoid the moving cluster problem, and you are in the sun all the time. Doesn't solve the cooling problem per se but it might make shading/radiator orientation easier.

But Microsoft is correct, putting submersible datacenters near coastal cities is easier in the short term. Putting it beyond territorial waters makes licensing easier too. Also, not being visible means most NIMBY beachouse owners won't complain either since it won't affect property values. I remember there was some SPS opposition due to the visible light reflecting of SPS sats at GEO.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #54 on: 07/24/2023 04:51 pm »
https://twitter.com/timfernholz/status/1683511289287684096

Quote
Impulse Space, the rocket engine company from SpaceX vet Tom Mueller, says it raised a $45 million Series A...some start-ups are still finding VC backing!

Edit to add:

https://techcrunch.com/2023/07/24/impulse-space-is-flying-high-with-new-funding-led-by-rtx-ventures/
« Last Edit: 07/24/2023 04:53 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #55 on: 10/04/2023 08:01 pm »
Space.com has an interview with Tom Mueller (founder and CEO of Impulse Space, and former SpaceX rocket engine designer):

Impulse Space CEO Tom Mueller talks early days at SpaceX, moon bases and a booming space industry (exclusive)

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #56 on: 11/05/2023 08:21 pm »
https://twitter.com/lrocket/status/1720493154292629632

Quote
Saiph thruster candy corn @GoToImpulse

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #57 on: 11/10/2023 09:02 pm »
https://twitter.com/gotoimpulse/status/1723082114269430202

Quote
Any company’s first launch of their product is always an incredible feat. But for Impulse, ours is a little more special because of the journey it took to get here. We moved into a new 55,000 sq ft facility in Redondo Beach in March of 2023... (1/6)

The building was an old furniture warehouse and was the farthest thing from a space factory. The final epoxy wasn’t even laid yet, but there was no choice, the 7,000 sq ft facility in El Segundo was incapable of supporting 50+ employees, machining equipment & engine testing (2/6)

On top of this, just 2 months before in January, Mira, our 1st vehicle, wasn’t even designed yet. Not only did the Impulse team renovate an entire building and make it space-ready, but we designed, built, tested and shipped a vehicle within ~6 months (3/6)

We also had to finalize a Series-A raise in an economy that has been less than ideal. We also doubled in size and now sit at over 85 full-time employees.   On the eve of launch, it’s important to look back and reflect on the incredible hard work, (4/6)

hours, rigor & sweat that the Impulse team has put in and how we got to this point. Building an incredible team is half the battle; but execution is the rest of it. And that starts this weekend. (5/6)

To the employees shown below, and those not, thank you for your incredible efforts to get us to this point.
   
Tune in on November 11th at 10:47am PT to see Transporter-9 lifting off out of Vandenberg. Go Impulse!

#MiraFirstFlight #ImpulseSpace

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #58 on: 11/13/2023 10:53 am »
https://twitter.com/lrocket/status/1723769027435405633

Quote
Great news for our Mira LEO Express 1 mission- we are receiving data from Mira and spacecraft health is good!  I want to thank the Impulse team, our investors and all of our partners and suppliers.
« Last Edit: 11/13/2023 10:54 am by Cheapchips »

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #59 on: 11/14/2023 04:53 am »
https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1724191232425910604

Quote
Tom Mueller has moved on from SpaceX and rockets to apparent success with in-space propulsion.

https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/11/impulse-space-appears-to-succeed-with-its-first-spacecraft/

Quote
SpaceX founding employee successfully moves from rockets to in-space propulsion
"We want to make it cheap and easy to get anywhere in the Solar System."

by Eric Berger - Nov 13, 2023 10:07pm GMT

SpaceX launched its ninth "Transporter" mission on Saturday from California, carrying dozens of small- and medium-sized satellites into low-Earth orbit.

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #60 on: 11/17/2023 10:38 am »
A wonderful hour long interview/chat with Tom Mueller with some great info about the company and how things are going with the first vehicle in orbit.

edit/gongora: tweaked URL

« Last Edit: 11/22/2023 01:05 am by gongora »

Offline Reynold

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #61 on: 11/29/2023 01:10 pm »
Just listened to this, and there are some nice early SpaceX anecdotes sprinkled in there as well. 

Does anyone know the status of the test tug they launched on the recent transporter mission?  Mueller mentions in the interview that they were having communications difficulties with it, though the hardware was performing fine, and they expected to get the radio working properly soon, but the podcast was a couple of weeks ago. 

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #62 on: 12/03/2023 02:18 am »
https://twitter.com/gotoimpulse/status/1731105246611755512

Quote
Our vehicle Mira has successfully deployed our payload! Thank you @TrustPointGPS for flying on LEO Express-1 💫

Mira still has secondary missions to complete— stay tuned for more!

#MiraFirstFlight #ImpulseSpace

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #63 on: 12/21/2023 12:11 am »
A wonderful hour long interview/chat with Tom Mueller with some great info about the company and how things are going with the first vehicle in orbit.

edit/gongora: tweaked URL



https://twitter.com/lrocket/status/1737641033834606740

Quote
Proud to have joined Jake and Anthony on the Off-Nominal Podcast!
We got into my work in space propulsion, my time at SpaceX, and how I have learned to embrace trying new things; you have to be optimistic when faced with new challenges.
When we recorded the podcast, Impulse had just launched our new craft, Mira. Since then, we made successful contact and can communicate with the craft!
Give the podcast a listen and let me know what you think!

offnom.com/episodes/132

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #64 on: 12/21/2023 06:30 pm »
twitter.com/gotoimpulse/status/1737908810335850839

Quote
🔥 LEO Express-1 mission update: Mira has #Impulse! Yesterday marked a major milestone as we executed a flawless first-time firing of all eight 5lb (22N) Saiph thrusters on our orbital transfer vehicle, Mira. 
Hats off to our team for their engineering preparation and a well-tested system.

https://twitter.com/gotoimpulse/status/1737908812449825203

Quote
Here's a snapshot of LEO Express-1 achievements so far:
🕔 From a blank-sheet design to an operational spacecraft in-space in under 15 months
⭐️ Our in-house developed thrusters, valves, ignitors, pressure transducers, star trackers, cameras, core avionics, and lightweight composite overwrapped pressure vessel (COPV) tanks all hit TRL 9
🌈 Ground-up builds of new flight software (FSW) and guidance, navigation, and control (GNC) capabilities.
🌱 Rapid propellant loading using green propellants from a domestic supply chain
☀️ Autonomous sun pointing and system checkouts post-deployment
⚡️Power positive operations
✚ Attitude control through 16x reaction control thrusters
🛰️ Successful deployment of a customer's 3U CubeSat
🔥 First-try ignition of all eight bi-propellant Saiph thrusters
👨‍🚀 All operated from our sparkly-new Mission Control center

Offline gongora

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #65 on: 01/17/2024 03:57 pm »
Impulse has announced their kick stage (Helios):
https://www.impulsespace.com/helios



IMPULSE SPACE UNVEILS DESIGN SPECIFICATIONS FOR NEW HIGH PERFORMANCE KICK STAGE, HELIOS

JAN 17, 2024 _ PRESS RELEASE

With a powerful new engine developed by veterans of the Merlin team, Helios is designed to transport 5+ tons from LEO to GEO in less than 24 hours.

Impulse Space, an innovator of in-space transportation services for the inner solar system, today unveiled design specifications for its latest vehicle: Helios, a high performance kick stage. Using a medium-lift launch vehicle, Helios is designed to take payloads of over 5 tons directly from Low Earth Orbit (LEO) to Geostationary Orbit (GEO) in less than 24 hours. Paired with affordable launches to LEO, Helios aims to dramatically cut the costs of accessing MEO, GEO, and beyond by many tens of millions of dollars.

“The work done by SpaceX and others to open access to LEO has transformed existing industries and created countless new opportunities for businesses, scientists, and governments,” said Impulse CEO and founder Tom Mueller. “We firmly believe that extending affordable and reliable access to orbits beyond LEO with Helios will have a similar impact and create new markets.”

Compatible with medium-lift and super-heavy launchers and using standard payload interfaces, Helios is designed to serve customers in the communications, imaging, defense, and scientific communities. Today, the status quo for many satellites launched to LEO is to use electric propulsion to slowly arrive at their target orbit over a period of months; the alternatives are to either include extra propulsion in the satellite itself, complicating the design and increasing mass and cost, or to pay for a much more expensive launch directly to MEO or GEO.

“The Helios vehicle unlocks the capability to move from LEO to MEO or GEO in a matter of hours—not days or months, as is currently the norm using conventional orbit raising methods,” said Martin Halliwell, former CTO of SES Satellites. “This changes the mission value proposition significantly in several ways, including decreasing the time to reach operational status, limiting potential radiation exposure, and reducing the overall payload mass by decreasing the size of thrusters and amount of fuel required. Helios will open new opportunities for MEO and GEO operators beyond today's limited mission choice criteria."

Helios is powered by a new 15,000 lbf (67 kN) engine, Deneb, which would burn up to 14,000 kg of propellant across each mission. The design and development team includes many veterans of the SpaceX Merlin engine, the most reliable rocket engine in history. Using the nontoxic, high-performance propellant combination of liquid oxygen and liquid methane, the same as Starship and Relativity’s Terran R, Deneb is future-proofed for on-pad operations. Deneb's first engine test-fires are scheduled for mid-2024, and the first demo launch of Helios is targeted for early 2026.

Helios joins Mira as the second vehicle in Impulse’s fleet—the “long-haul” complement to Mira’s “last-mile delivery” services. Having recently taken Mira from a blank-sheet design to successful operations in space in just 15 months, Impulse has rapidly emerged as a reliable and trusted partner for in-space transportation.

Missions set to benefit from Helios’s high delta-v capabilities include the insertion of GPS satellites into MEO, transferring telecom satellites from LEO to GEO, and placing scientific satellites (like the James Webb Telescope) into solar orbits. Customers will be able to choose their altitude, inclination, and plane with confidence that Impulse will deliver the payload with precision and timeliness.

See the Helios page for more information.
« Last Edit: 01/17/2024 03:58 pm by gongora »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #66 on: 01/17/2024 04:34 pm »
Animation on this tweet:

https://twitter.com/gotoimpulse/status/1747646045549744318

Quote
Introducing #Helios, our new high-performance kick stage.

Helios is designed to transfer 5+ tons from LEO to GEO in under 24 hours, dramatically cutting customer launch costs and time to operations.

Check the design specs 👉 impulsespace.com/updates/impuls…

Offline Teppich

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #67 on: 01/17/2024 04:53 pm »
An interesting comment in this Ars article on Helios:

Quote
The fuel choice is partly a nod to the reusable future of spaceflight that Impulse Space hopes to tap into. "SpaceX needs 1,000 [metric] tons to refuel Starship," he said. "Just give us a sip. We'll take our 14 tons, and we'll be glad to pay for it. And we can continue to reuse these."

So this would seem to imply that they plan to have these refuel on orbit in the long run, probably from preexisting propellant depots?

So their overall strategy here could be to enter the market as quickly as possible with what's de facto a third stage for existing medium/heavy launch vehicles, and later transition that system to a proper in space tug.

I really do wonder what the market for a tug of that size would be though (the value of it as a third stage is much clearer in comparison to me). If regulations make it profitable, it could be an interesting starting point for an active debris (defunct sat) removal system?

https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/01/meet-helios-a-new-class-of-space-tug-with-some-real-muscle/

Offline catdlr

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #68 on: 01/17/2024 05:07 pm »
Impulse has announced their kick stage (Helios):
https://www.impulsespace.com/helios



If the kickstage is hidden inside the faring and somewhat tucked into the interstage, why bother constructing it with a skin, could they save some weight without it?  Would look ugly but it works for the Soyuz-2 Fregat.
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Offline Teppich

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #69 on: 01/17/2024 05:12 pm »
I'g guess it's *highly* likely they're using cylindrical tanks with a common dome here. So there's no excess skin to remove anywhere




If the kickstage is hidden inside the faring and somewhat tucked into the interstage, why bother constructing it with a skin, could they save some weight without it?  Would look ugly but it works for the Soyuz-2 Fregat.

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #70 on: 01/17/2024 05:27 pm »
It will be interesting to see if SpaceX itself introduces something like this.  They may have their own methane thrusters ready to go as part of the HLS landing method.

I would have thought a smaller thruster would be preferable to a single thruster.  You could gang them together for engine-out capability.
« Last Edit: 01/17/2024 05:31 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline catdlr

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #71 on: 01/17/2024 05:39 pm »
It will be interesting to see if SpaceX itself introduces something like this.  They may have their own methane thrusters ready to go as part of the HLS landing method.

I would have thought a smaller thruster would be preferable to a single thruster.  You could gang them together for engine-out capability.

Their sales brochure indicates that it was compatible to fly with F9.
« Last Edit: 01/17/2024 05:41 pm by catdlr »
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Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #72 on: 01/17/2024 07:50 pm »
Impulse has announced their kick stage (Helios):
https://www.impulsespace.com/helios



IMPULSE SPACE UNVEILS DESIGN SPECIFICATIONS FOR NEW HIGH PERFORMANCE KICK STAGE, HELIOS

JAN 17, 2024 _ PRESS RELEASE


What is "F9-5500", why the 5500 after Falcon 9?

Online TrueBlueWitt

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #73 on: 01/17/2024 07:57 pm »
Anyone done the math on what mission profiles you could throw with this to the outer planets on a FH yet?

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #74 on: 01/17/2024 08:02 pm »
What is "F9-5500", why the 5500 after Falcon 9?

The only thing I can come up with is that SpaceX lists their reusable GTO capacity as 5.5t

Offline StraumliBlight

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #75 on: 01/17/2024 08:07 pm »
What is "F9-5500", why the 5500 after Falcon 9?

Internal SpaceX serial number for Block 5?

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #76 on: 01/17/2024 08:10 pm »
What is "F9-5500", why the 5500 after Falcon 9?

The only thing I can come up with is that SpaceX lists their reusable GTO capacity as 5.5t

Thanks, probably it, tho F9 can launch a bit more nowadays (5.8 tons at least, if not close to 6)

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #77 on: 01/17/2024 08:19 pm »
Anyone done the math on what mission profiles you could throw with this to the outer planets on a FH yet?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Back of envelope suggests that getting Dragonfly direct to Saturn is possible via Falcon-Heavy + Helios - remember that uses an RTG and time is wasted money.</p>&mdash; Scott Manley (@DJSnM) January 17, 2024 <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #78 on: 01/17/2024 10:00 pm »
Anyone done the math on what mission profiles you could throw with this to the outer planets on a FH yet?
This variant of the Helios will not likely be use for outer system missions on the Falcon Heavy. More likely a stretched variant with 100% to 200% (14 to 28 tonnes) more propellants on a Falcon Heavy with the stretched payload fairing.

It gets even more interesting for a variant that is optimized for staging from the one of the Lagrange points or high elliptical Earth orbit with really gigantic propellant tanks.


Offline Kaputnik

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #79 on: 01/17/2024 11:33 pm »
What do we think the Deneb engine is likely to be like? I'm assuming an expander cycle would be a great fit, but electric pumped might work too.
Knowing Tom Mueller's background, what do we think is the most likely?
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Offline RDMM2081

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #80 on: 01/18/2024 04:55 am »
One of his interviews today he said Deneb is staged combustion

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #81 on: 01/18/2024 07:08 am »
What do we think the Deneb engine is likely to be like? I'm assuming an expander cycle would be a great fit, but electric pumped might work too.
Knowing Tom Mueller's background, what do we think is the most likely?
For electric pump 5klbs is about limit before turbopump engines are better option. Deneb is 15klbs.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #82 on: 01/18/2024 07:28 am »
One of his interviews today he said Deneb is staged combustion

Unlikely to be FFSC or ORSC, that leaves FRSC as the mostly likely engine type.

AIUI. FFSC is much harder with a small engine. ORSC engines requires exotic materials and complicated manufacturing processes.

List of Acronyms:
FFSC = full flow stage combustion
FRSC = fuel rich stage combustion
ORSC = oxidizer rich stage combustion
« Last Edit: 01/28/2024 10:15 pm by Zed_Noir »

Offline Kaputnik

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #83 on: 01/18/2024 05:00 pm »
One of his interviews today he said Deneb is staged combustion

Interesting. Expander works really well at small scales and is simple and reliable.

What's the advantage of staged? Higher T:W maybe? Or does expander not really work well with CH4?
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Offline Asteroza

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #84 on: 01/18/2024 11:05 pm »
I get the feeling Helios is targeting the Artemis TLI crowd and not so much HEO/GEO, at least for "commercial" space...

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #85 on: 01/19/2024 12:05 am »
Regarding Deneb:
Methalox Staged Combustion Cycle
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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #86 on: 01/19/2024 12:06 am »
One of his interviews today he said Deneb is staged combustion

Interesting. Expander works really well at small scales and is simple and reliable.

What's the advantage of staged? Higher T:W maybe? Or does expander not really work well with CH4?

Staged combustion could let you get stupid high expansion ratios for the same engine bell size… like >500:1 if they wanted. Higher ER = higher ISP.
« Last Edit: 01/19/2024 12:10 am by ZachF »
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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #87 on: 01/19/2024 12:18 am »
Because ultimately you can get power and cooling and perhaps globally accessible data via lasers for cheaper than terrestrial.

LOL, ok. At this point let's just agree to disagree because we aren't even in the same solar system in terms of world view.
Have you updated your worldview on this? Just run some numbers. Starlink gen2s may cost around $100/kg. Starlink v1 was $1000/kg.

They’re using commodity solar cells probably costing about 20-30¢/Watt, and using a German built stringer (used for making commodity terrestrial utility scale solar modules for 30-40¢/Watt) to solder them up into spacecraft arrays. They’re not manufacturing the satellites by 3D printing or expensive CNC machining, but by mass manufacturing stamped metal or molding, like how you mass-manufacture automobiles. We ARE in a different solar system already…

I think I made a thread about this years ago and most people called me crazy lol.

What’s the cost of in-space solar power with <$0.30 watt solar PV and <$100/kg to LEO? Probably almost laughably cheap…
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Offline ParabolicSnark

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #88 on: 01/19/2024 12:38 am »
What do we think the Deneb engine is likely to be like? I'm assuming an expander cycle would be a great fit, but electric pumped might work too.
Knowing Tom Mueller's background, what do we think is the most likely?
For electric pump 5klbs is about limit before turbopump engines are better option. Deneb is 15klbs.

I remember that being the case around 2015, but is that still the case? Has battery and controller technology advanced enough in the past decade (that hurts to say) where maybe it would now trade favorably at the 10-15k lb range? EV's have given us a lot in that sector.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #89 on: 01/19/2024 02:18 am »
10-15k might be upper limit now. Give Toms background a turbopump engine is better path.

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #90 on: 01/19/2024 03:09 am »
Because ultimately you can get power and cooling and perhaps globally accessible data via lasers for cheaper than terrestrial.

LOL, ok. At this point let's just agree to disagree because we aren't even in the same solar system in terms of world view.
Have you updated your worldview on this? Just run some numbers. Starlink gen2s may cost around $100/kg. Starlink v1 was $1000/kg.

They’re using commodity solar cells probably costing about 20-30¢/Watt, and using a German built stringer (used for making commodity terrestrial utility scale solar modules for 30-40¢/Watt) to solder them up into spacecraft arrays. They’re not manufacturing the satellites by 3D printing or expensive CNC machining, but by mass manufacturing stamped metal or molding, like how you mass-manufacture automobiles. We ARE in a different solar system already…

I think I made a thread about this years ago and most people called me crazy lol.

What’s the cost of in-space solar power with <$0.30 watt solar PV and <$100/kg to LEO? Probably almost laughably cheap…

And sorry I don't follow this conversation, can you explain your point?
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Offline deltaV

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #91 on: 01/19/2024 03:17 am »
If you have a super-cheap two-stage fully reusable superheavy that can put (say) 200 tonne into LEO, then its payload can be a 100-tonne expendable kick stage with a 100-tonne actual payload. I think this beats Vulcan Centaur, except for the minor fact that it does not exist. Think of it as a one-off "tug".

From the rocket equation in a spreadsheet and a bunch of wild guesses at parameters I'd guess Starship plus Helios could get around 19 tonnes direct GEO, 37 tonnes to TLI, or 22 tonnes to low lunar orbit. That TLI figure is more than any current rocket other than SLS with EUS can do. A 100 tonne class kick stage or propellant transfer would of course make Starship even more capable (100+ tonnes to GEO, TLI or LLO) but Starship + Helios is already quite capable.

(https://www.impulsespace.com/updates/impulse-space-unveils-design-specifications-for-helios has one very important fact about Helios: it has up to 14 tonnes of propellant.)

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #92 on: 01/19/2024 04:14 am »
From the rocket equation in a spreadsheet and a bunch of wild guesses at parameters I'd guess Starship plus Helios could get around 19 tonnes direct GEO, 37 tonnes to TLI, or 22 tonnes to low lunar orbit.

Out of curiousity, for LLO what assumptions did you make about methalox boil-off rates? The Impulse website makes no mention of LLO as a destination orbit....
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Offline deltaV

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #93 on: 01/19/2024 05:37 am »
Out of curiousity, for LLO what assumptions did you make about methalox boil-off rates? The Impulse website makes no mention of LLO as a destination orbit....

I didn't account for boil-off or the mass of anti-boil-off hardware such as sun shields.

Now that you mention it I wonder if boil-off is why their stated GEO performance isn't as good as I expected.

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #94 on: 01/19/2024 05:39 am »
Plenty of numbers from Tom himself - 13.5T of propellent
Adds 3.9km/sec dv for a 6065kg payload
& 5.25 km/sec for 3241kg payload

Specific impulse is close to 378s

https://x.com/lrocket/status/1747742865424535565?s=20

https://x.com/lrocket/status/1747801633881485536?s=20

https://x.com/Phrankensteyn/status/1748115917395874108?s=20

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #95 on: 01/20/2024 12:45 am »
Plenty of numbers from Tom himself - 13.5T of propellent
Adds 3.9km/sec dv for a 6065kg payload
& 5.25 km/sec for 3241kg payload

Specific impulse is close to 378s

https://x.com/lrocket/status/1747742865424535565?s=20

https://x.com/lrocket/status/1747801633881485536?s=20

https://x.com/Phrankensteyn/status/1748115917395874108?s=20
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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #96 on: 01/20/2024 11:53 pm »
Referencing here a comment on the Griffin Plan thread:

If Helios had long-duration capability, it could serve as a service module for Dragon launched on Falcon Heavy.

This certainly renews my interest in Helios as a potential candidate to provide propulsion for lunar orbit insertion. In that context, long-duration means only about 4 days, with acceptable boil-off rates. Have Mueller or Impulse Space provided any hints at all on that?
« Last Edit: 01/20/2024 11:54 pm by sdsds »
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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #97 on: 01/21/2024 12:20 am »
10-15k might be upper limit now. Give Toms background a turbopump engine is better path.
It's a staged combustion engine.
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Offline deltaV

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #98 on: 01/21/2024 03:49 pm »
Referencing here a comment on the Griffin Plan thread:

If Helios had long-duration capability, it could serve as a service module for Dragon launched on Falcon Heavy.

This certainly renews my interest in Helios as a potential candidate to provide propulsion for lunar orbit insertion. In that context, long-duration means only about 4 days, with acceptable boil-off rates. Have Mueller or Impulse Space provided any hints at all on that?

It seems sub-optimal to have all the cost and complexity of a low-boil-off pump-fed cryogenic stage but use it for only the ~1 km/s of delta vee that it takes to enter low lunar orbit. (Dr. Griffin's plan has the same issue.) It's more usual to use fewer and bigger cryogenic stages each providing 3+ km/s of delta vee. Bigger stages like Centaur V and the Falcon 9 upper stage seem better for crewed lunar missions since you can get more delta vee out of them. If you want to use Impulse Space hardware in a crewed lunar mission it may be better to make a new larger stage or lander using several of Helios's 15 klbf Deneb engines.

Offline deltaV

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #99 on: 01/28/2024 06:33 pm »
From the video section:

https://twitter.com/bccarcounters/status/1750912993607459012

Quote
Very happy to announce that this week @NASASpaceflight live will feature Impulse Space CEO Tom Mueller (@lrocket).

The show will start on Sunday at 3 p.m. Eastern time.

Link:



This is starting in half an hour.

Edit: that live interview happened. The same YouTube link can be used to watch the replay.
« Last Edit: 01/29/2024 12:05 am by deltaV »

Offline Hug

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Re: Impulse Space
« Reply #100 on: 01/28/2024 11:30 pm »
ORSC targeting ~375s. Gotta love it when a propulsion engineer like Mueller talks about the trades with a degree of depth. Duration is also brought up; they already have to have a reasonable amount of insulation given that they're launching inside a fairing, but was only thinking a couple days maybe.

Engine cycle discussion at this timestamp
https://www.youtube.com/live/pojbt_bsafo?si=-ChW40dcx0dEs9c5&t=3482
« Last Edit: 01/29/2024 03:19 am by Hug »

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