Poll

Which missions should be included on the manifest list as space tourism?

Only missions with a participant who paid for their trip (so not including MS-19)
2 (10%)
Current proposed list (non-professional astronauts with at most a few months training on a commercially purchased flight)
4 (20%)
Any non-professional astronaut mission with a seat bought commercially (so include Helen Sharman, but not Bill Nelson etc)
8 (40%)
Any mission with non-professional astronauts regardless who pays (so include Helen Sharman & Bill Nelson etc)
6 (30%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Voting closed: 05/24/2021 11:30 pm


Author Topic: Space tourism resurgence and manifest  (Read 46219 times)

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« on: 05/14/2021 06:25 pm »
There doesn’t appear to be a live space tourism thread (that isn’t provider specific), so starting this one with all the current activity and announcements (Inspiration 4, Soyuz trips to ISS, Axiom, Blue Origin suborbital etc)

Here’s an overview of recent news by Scott Manley:



Quote
There were 8 flights to the ISS between 2001 and 2009 carrying private spaceflight participants, or, Space Tourists. Nobody has flown since then except for a couple of suborbital hops on Virgin Galactic. Now the prospect of space tourism is back in force with 4 flights scheduled to orbit and more on the horizon carrying a dozen participants to one of the most exclusive destinations.

P.S. Not interested in a debate about the merits, or otherwise, of the term space tourism. It’s a widely used term. If you want to debate it then start another thread!
« Last Edit: 05/15/2021 09:18 am by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence
« Reply #1 on: 05/15/2021 07:00 am »
Orbital and Beyond Manifest

Work in progress

As per the poll result, this orbital manifest lists any flights with a non-professional astronaut whose seat was bought commercially. It therefore excludes government funded missions (such as Bill Nelson and Christa McAuliffe).

Soyuz MS-19 is currently listed but it’s funding is unclear. If it proves to be a government funded mission then it will be removed.

First number under Crew is number of tourists (non-professional crew members). Number in parentheses is professional crew. So total people on the mission is the sum.

Destination LF is lunar flyby

       Launch    Land/Splashdown
Date Time (UTC)Date Time (UTC)DurationCraftMissionCrewDestination
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1990/12/021990/12/108dSoyuzSoyuz TM-11 (Toyohiro Akiyama)1 (2)Mir
1991/05/181991/05/268dSoyuzSoyuz TM-12 (Helen Sharman)1 (2)Mir
2001/04/282001/05/068dSoyuzISS EP-1 (Dennis Tito)1 (2)ISS
2002/04/252002/05/0510dSoyuzISS EP-2 (Mark Shuttleworth)1 (2)ISS
2002/10/012002/10/1010dSoyuzISS EP-3 (Gregory Olsen)1 (2)ISS
2006/09/202006/09/2910dSoyuzISS EP-4 (Anousheh Ansari)1 (2)ISS
2007/04/072007/04/2110dSoyuzISS EP-12 (Charles Simonyi)1 (2)ISS
2008/10/122008/10/2413dSoyuzISS EP-13 (Richard Garriott)1 (2)ISS
2009/03/26 11:492009/04/0814dSoyuzISS EP-14 (Charles Simonyi)1 (2)ISS
2009/09/302009/10/11 04:3212dSoyuzISS EP-15 (Guy Laliberté)1 (2)ISS
2021/09/16 00:022021/09/18 23:072d23h5mDragonInspiration44 (0)LEO (575km)
2021/10/05 08:552021/10/17 04:3511d19h40mSoyuzSoyuz MS-192 (1)ISS
2021/12/08 07:382021/12/20 03:1311d19h35mSoyuzSoyuz MS-202 (1)ISS
2022/04/08 15:172022/04/25 17:0617d1h49mDragonAxiom 13 (1)ISS
2023/05/21 21:372023/05/31 03:049d5h27mDragonDiscovery: Axiom 23 (1)ISS
2024/01/18 21:492024/02/09 13:3021d15h41mDragonAxiom 33 (1)ISS
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2024 Q3?2024 Q3?5dDragonPolaris Dawn2 (2)LEO
2024 Oct2024 Oct14dDragonAxiom 43 (1)ISS
2025?2025???DragonPolaris Mission 2? (?)LEO
2026?2026???StarshipPolaris Mission 3? (?)LEO
2026?2026?1wStarshipdearMoon9 (?)LF
2025??< 30 daysDragonVast-14? (?)Haven-1
202?202?1wStarship2nd private lunar fly-by (Titos)12 (?)LF
« Last Edit: 02/10/2024 04:55 am by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence
« Reply #2 on: 05/15/2021 07:03 am »
Suborbital Manifest

Work in progress

Time is launch time.

First number under Crew is number of tourists (non-professional crew members). Number in parentheses is professional crew. So total people on the mission is the sum.

.....Booster
Date Time (UTC)SpacecraftMissionCrewApogee (MSL)/ CarrierSpacecraft Id
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2021/07/11 14:38SpaceShipTwoUnity 22 (Branson)1 (5)282k ftVMS EveVSS Unity
2021/07/20 13:12New ShepardNS Flight 16 (Bezos)4 (0)351,210 ftNSRSS First Step
2021/10/13 14:49New ShepardNS Flight 18 (Shatner)3 (1)351,186 ftNS 4.3RSS First Step
2021/12/11 15:00New ShepardNS Flight 196 (0)351,225 ftNS 4.4RSS First Step
2022/03/31 13:57New ShepardNS Flight 206 (0)351,274 ftNS 4.5RSS First Step
2022/06/04 13:25New ShepardNS Flight 216 (0)351,183 ftNS 4.6RSS First Step
2022/08/06 13:56New ShepardNS Flight 226 (0)351,231 ftNS 4.7RSS First Step
2023/05/25 16:23SpaceShipTwoUnity 250 (6)286k ftVMS EveVSS Unity
2023/06/29 15:30SpaceShipTwoGalactic 013 (3)279k ftVMS EveVSS Unity
2023/08/10 14:30SpaceShipTwoGalactic 023 (3)290k ftVMS EveVSS Unity
2023/09/08 14:34SpaceShipTwoGalactic 033 (3)290k ftVMS EveVSS Unity
2023/10/06 14:28SpaceShipTwoGalactic 043 (3)287k ftVMS EveVSS Unity
2023/11/02SpaceShipTwoGalactic 053 (3)286k ftVMS EveVSS Unity
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2024/01SpaceShipTwoGalactic 064 (2)??
« Last Edit: 11/14/2023 07:13 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline scientist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #3 on: 05/17/2021 08:13 pm »
Thank you for compiling this list.

If I may, I'd like to make an observation concerning Soyuz MS-19. That mission doesn't fit with the others in the list because none of the crew are paying for their seat by themselves.

I'm not sure who exactly is paying for their flight. In case it is the film studio, then it is more similar to the flights of Toyohiro Akiyama and Helen Sharman to Mir in the 90's. If Roscosmos pays the bill then their roles are more similar to the payload specialists or teachers that flew on the Space Shuttle. But in any case it's not like the other tourist flights.

Offline freddo411

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #4 on: 05/17/2021 08:33 pm »
This thread is a GREAT idea.   Thanks for starting it.

I can see the future that having an entire section on NSF may be warranted.

Space Tourism looks to be growing exponentially.   2021 looks to have nearly as many tourists as the entire decade of the aughts.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #5 on: 05/17/2021 11:18 pm »
Thank you for compiling this list.

If I may, I'd like to make an observation concerning Soyuz MS-19. That mission doesn't fit with the others in the list because none of the crew are paying for their seat by themselves.

I'm not sure who exactly is paying for their flight. In case it is the film studio, then it is more similar to the flights of Toyohiro Akiyama and Helen Sharman to Mir in the 90's. If Roscosmos pays the bill then their roles are more similar to the payload specialists or teachers that flew on the Space Shuttle. But in any case it's not like the other tourist flights.

You raise a good question about who warrants inclusion on the list. I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer, different definitions just result in different lists. However, the list needs to have a definition, not least to ensure some consistency!

For my definition, I do not care who paid for the flight; as I’m interested in people who go to space who are not professional astronauts. If we restrict the list to those that pay, then we would exclude dearMoon participants who are not paying, and that doesn’t seem right to me. Similarly, an actress and director on MS-19 are definitely non-professional astronauts, who I want to include. (Or Tom Cruise if he flies.) Personally, I’ve always thought of space tourism quite broadly and don’t think of it as the same as going on vacation.

On that basis arguably at least Toyohiro Akiyama and Helen Sharman should be included too. However, my understanding is that both underwent extensive cosmonaut training of between 12 and 18 months? Similarly for the tragic case of Christa McAuliffe, or indeed Bill Nelson. To me, the extent and nature of their training is qualitatively different and makes them closer to professional astronauts.

I don’t feel very strongly about it and fully accept that one definition of a ‘space tourist’ is a non-professional astronaut whose trip is purchased commercially. On that basis Toyohiro Akiyama and Helen Sharman would be included.

I’ll add a poll to see what people would find more useful / interesting.

Offline scientist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #6 on: 05/18/2021 12:52 am »
I voted for the most inclusive option - I think there weren't too many non-professional astronaut missions in history, even including the non-commercial ones, so it can be useful to have them all in one list.

By the way, I looked through the Soyuz MS-19 thread, and it isn't clear if those seats were bought commercially or just provided as a government contribution to the project. So that flight might be actually in the non-commercial category.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #7 on: 05/18/2021 08:11 am »
By the way, I looked through the Soyuz MS-19 thread, and it isn't clear if those seats were bought commercially or just provided as a government contribution to the project. So that flight might be actually in the non-commercial category.

Yes, you’re right - it’s very unclear. All the press releases etc just talk about a collaboration between Roscosmos and the Russian network, First Channel. Not stated if any money is changing hands, although we know Roscosmos finances are not great (but as you say could be government funded).

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #8 on: 05/18/2021 08:14 am »
If the seat was paid for by the government, then it is not commercial and should be excluded.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #9 on: 05/18/2021 11:14 am »
https://twitter.com/asollowayuk/status/1394600785430843394

Quote
Today marks 30 years since Helen Sharman became the first British person to go to space.

Helen paved the way for so many future astronauts to boldly go where few have gone before and played a pioneering role in our understanding of the Universe.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/heritage-and-retro/heritage/30-years-on-sheffield-astronaut-helen-sharman-is-still-a-role-model-3237696

Offline hektor

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #10 on: 05/18/2021 11:52 am »
I find it exaggerated to characterize actors who go to film on ISS as tourists. When Tom Cruise goes to Dubai to shoot Mission: Impossible – Ghost Protocol, you do not call him a tourist in Dubai.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #11 on: 05/18/2021 02:53 pm »
https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1394662341808115720

Quote
Discovery announces competition TV series "Who Wants To Be An Astronaut?"

"Contestants will have the opportunity to compete for an official spot aboard an upcoming Axiom mission, expected to be AX-2."

Edit to add:

https://www.discovery.com/shows/who-wants-to-be-an-astronaut+

Quote
Have you ever gazed up at the stars and wondered what it would feel like to be looking back down at Earth? Are you a space enthusiast who would give anything to travel to space, but never thought you'd have an opportunity? Welcome to WHO WANTS TO BE AN ASTRONAUT - the ultimate chance of a lifetime. Compete for a seat on a flight to the International Space Station where the winner will be able to do something only a handful of humans have ever done...travel into space.

We're not looking for rocket scientists - this is an opportunity for regular people to have the chance to travel to space and share that journey with the world. (Ok, ok, if you're a rocket scientist you're welcome to apply too!)

If this sounds like a mission you want to be part of, now is your chance. Fill out the application below and submit a short video (30-60 seconds) telling us about yourself, why you deserve a chance to travel to space, what it would mean to you, and why you want to participate. We can't wait to hear from you.

Good luck!

Applicants must be a U.S. citizen or a legal U.S. resident, be 18 years of age or older, be of a fitness level commensurate with space flight (in good health, able to withstand physical exertion, and meet other space travel related requirements. Applicants must be able to read, write and be fluent in the English language for purposes of training, as well as be willing to undergo a psychological, physical and background examination before being cleared to participate fully.

You can apply at: https://space.castingcrane.com/

Edit to add: separate thread at

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=51964.0
« Last Edit: 08/14/2022 12:44 am by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #12 on: 05/20/2021 08:10 pm »
https://twitter.com/spcplcyonline/status/1395471025341616131

Quote
I also asked how NASA astronauts feel about the many private astronauts going to ISS--if they'll have adequate training, be disruptive. She said NASA has agreements w/the companies flying them about expected behaviors, etc.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #13 on: 05/31/2021 08:39 pm »
A belated thanks to those of you who voted in the poll (and for giving a clear result!).

I have updated the orbital manifest in the second post in this thread accordingly.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #14 on: 06/02/2021 03:19 pm »
https://twitter.com/axiom_space/status/1400105096785051648

Quote
You wanted a market for commercial human spaceflight?

It's here.

Ax-1, Ax-2, Ax-3, and Ax-4 – all now confirmed to fly on @SpaceX's Dragon.
« Last Edit: 06/02/2021 03:19 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #15 on: 06/02/2021 03:22 pm »
https://www.spacex.com/updates/axiom-announcement/index.html

Quote
SPACEX TO LAUNCH FOUR AXIOM MISSIONS TO ISS

Developed by SpaceX to support NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, Dragon helped return human spaceflight capabilities in 2020 and has successfully flown three human spaceflight missions to the International Space Station (ISS) to-date. In addition to flying astronauts to space for NASA, Dragon can also carry commercial astronauts to Earth orbit, the ISS or beyond.

Today, Axiom Space announced SpaceX will fly three additional private crew missions aboard Dragon to and from the Station through 2023. Axiom previously announced their first mission to the International Space Station flying aboard Dragon, currently targeted to liftoff no earlier than January 2022. In May 2021, Axiom announced that astronaut Peggy Whitson and champion GT racer John Shoffner will serve as commander and pilot on the Ax-2 mission.

All four crews will receive combined commercial astronaut training from NASA and SpaceX, with SpaceX providing training on the Falcon 9 launch vehicle and Dragon spacecraft, emergency preparedness training, spacesuit and spacecraft ingress and egress exercises, as well as partial and full simulations.

The growing partnership between Axiom and SpaceX will enable more opportunities for more humans in space on the road to making humanity multiplanetary.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #16 on: 06/11/2021 08:31 pm »
https://www.nasa.gov/leo-economy/NASA-seeks-proposals-next2-private-astronaut-missions-ISS

Quote
Jun 11, 2021

NASA Seeks Proposals for Next 2 Private Astronaut Missions to Space Station

NASA is seeking proposals for two new private astronaut missions to the International Space Station as part of the agency’s efforts to open space to more people than ever before. With these opportunities, U.S. commercial companies will continue to play an essential role in establishing a sustained presence in low-Earth orbit (LEO) through the agency’s Commercial LEO Development Program.

The first targeted flight opportunity will occur between fall of 2022 and mid-2023 and the second will occur between mid-2023 and the end of 2023. Proposals are due Friday, July 9, 2021 at 5 p.m. EDT. NASA will host a pre-proposer’s conference to field industry questions related to this announcement on Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 3:30 p.m. EDT. To confirm attendance, please email Karen Dailey at [email protected].

A private astronaut mission involves U.S. commercial spacecraft transporting private astronauts to the space station, where they conduct activities aboard the orbiting laboratory or a commercial structure attached to it. NASA is enabling up to two short-duration private astronaut missions per year.

“This year is truly a renaissance for human spaceflight both as we fly NASA and international partner astronauts on U.S. commercial crew spacecraft to the International Space Station and also as we see the expansion of private astronaut missions,” said Phil McAlister, director of commercial spaceflight development at NASA Headquarters. “As more people fly to space and do more things during their spaceflights, it attracts even more people to do more activities in low-Earth orbit, and reflects the growing market we envisioned when we began the Commercial Crew Program 10 years ago.”

The new targeted flight opportunities will be the second and third private astronaut missions to the International Space Station. NASA signed an agreement with Axiom Space for the first private astronaut mission, to take place no earlier than January 2022.

Each of the new missions may be up to 14 days. Specific dates are dependent on spacecraft traffic to the space station and in-orbit activity planning and constraints. Private astronaut missions must be brokered by a U.S. entity and use U.S. transportation spacecraft that meet NASA’s International Space Station visiting vehicle requirements, policies, and procedures. Refer to Focus Area 4A of NASA Research Announcement (NRA) NNJ13ZBG001N for additional details.

Enabling private astronaut missions to the International Space Station is part of the agency's goal to develop a robust low-Earth orbit economy where NASA is one of many customers, and the private sector leads the way. This strategy will provide services the government needs at a lower cost, enabling the agency to focus on its Artemis missions to the Moon and on to Mars while continuing to use low-Earth orbit as a training and proving ground for those deep space missions.

For questions about the solicitation, contact [email protected].

For media assistance, please contact:

Stephanie Schierholz
202-358-1100
[email protected]

Gary Jordan
281-483-5111
[email protected]

Last Updated: Jun 11, 2021
Editor: Ana Guzman

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #17 on: 07/03/2021 01:24 pm »
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/03/richard-branson-space-tourism-market-has-room-for-20-companies.html

Quote
Richard Branson believes the space market has room for 20 companies launching tourists
PUBLISHED SAT, JUL 3 20218:26 AM EDT
Michael Sheetz
@THESHEETZTWEETZ

KEY POINTS

Sir Richard Branson believes there is plenty of opportunity in the market for companies like Virgin Galactic, Jeff Bezos’ Blue Origin, or Elon Musk’s SpaceX.

“There’s room for 20 space companies to take people up there,” Branson told CNBC.

The companies of Branson, Bezos, and Musk are each flying spacecraft that can carry passengers, but in different ways, as the former two fly to the edge of space while the latter goes further, into orbit.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #18 on: 07/03/2021 10:46 pm »

Offline Kansan52

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #19 on: 07/03/2021 11:24 pm »
The isn't tourism. It is the most expensive roller coaster.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #20 on: 07/04/2021 10:22 am »
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/03/richard-branson-space-tourism-market-has-room-for-20-companies.html

Quote
Richard Branson believes the space market has room for 20 companies launching tourists
PUBLISHED SAT, JUL 3 20218:26 AM EDT
Michael Sheetz
@THESHEETZTWEETZ

KEY POINTS

Sir Richard Branson believes there is plenty of opportunity in the market for companies like Virgin Galactic, Jeff Bezos’ Blue Origin, or Elon Musk’s SpaceX.

“There’s room for 20 space companies to take people up there,” Branson told CNBC.

The companies of Branson, Bezos, and Musk are each flying spacecraft that can carry passengers, but in different ways, as the former two fly to the edge of space while the latter goes further, into orbit.
Branson reckons market for suborbital is 2 million at current ticket prices. Just servicing 1% of that forecast is going keep VG and Blue busy for few years.

If suborbital market turns out this big then it maybe worth some of small LV businesses going after. Follow Blues approach and use reuseable booster with capsule. 1000kg class booster should be able launch NS size capsule.

Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: 07/04/2021 10:30 am by TrevorMonty »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #21 on: 07/04/2021 11:33 am »
I’m sceptical that anyone can predict likely market size before commercial flights are underway, but not long to wait now. I do believe that long-term the market will prove large enough to support multiple providers, for both suborbital and orbital.

It’ll be interesting to see if there’s a notable difference in demand for different types of flight (such as horizontal vs vertical take-off). Personally I have more confidence in Blue Origin now than Virgin Galactic (due to the history of SpaceShipTwo issues). But the market may take a different view; particularly if/when there are a number of successful commercial flights.

Do more people want a traditional astronaut-like experience, in a capsule on top of a rocket? Or find a more aircraft-like vehicle and flight profile familiar and reassuring? It’s going to be fascinating to see how it plays out. I’m assuming similar ticket prices, but I guess a price war could happen at some point.
« Last Edit: 07/04/2021 11:34 am by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #22 on: 07/11/2021 04:41 pm »
Suborbital manifest updated to reflect today’s SS2 flight:

https://twitter.com/virgingalactic/status/1414260353131696131

Quote
The #Unity22 crew floating in zero gravity. Watch the flight at virgingalactic.com. @richardbranson

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #23 on: 07/11/2021 05:16 pm »
I’m sceptical that anyone can predict likely market size before commercial flights are underway, but not long to wait now.

You are right that no one can truly understand a market size until the service exists and real demand can be measured. But I disagree we'll know it soon as there is a finite supply of people that can afford and WANT $250,000 rides to space.

That last part, the "want" is important, since so far all we've seen is the hyper surrounding the experience, but just like with movies that get hyped months (or even years) before they are released, the public can sometimes be savage critics of the experience.

So until we get paying customers to go through the experience in a non-biased way, we won't truly know whether the experience can generate enough interest to not only survive, but thrive.

Quote
I do believe that long-term the market will prove large enough to support multiple providers, for both suborbital and orbital.

Color me skeptical about that, since I just don't see that large of a market for such a short experience.

Quote
It’ll be interesting to see if there’s a notable difference in demand for different types of flight (such as horizontal vs vertical take-off).

What they are marketing is the experience once they reach space, so I don't think it really matters how they get there, as long as everyone survives.

This was an important milestone for Virgin Galactic today, but I don't think it will change the market - whatever the market is.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #24 on: 07/12/2021 11:05 am »
It’ll be interesting to see if there’s a notable difference in demand for different types of flight (such as horizontal vs vertical take-off).

What they are marketing is the experience once they reach space, so I don't think it really matters how they get there, as long as everyone survives.

One thing that struck me during Richard Branson’s flight - and also mentioned on the NSF stream - was the extra time to reflect on the experience while gliding back down.

A flight on New Shepard is pretty intense, including descent and landing. Total NS flight time from launch to landing is about 11 minutes. Unity22 yesterday took about 12.5 minutes from apogee to touchdown, or about 13 minutes to wheel stop.

I think for some people - including myself - that difference may be significant. (Although academic in my case as I don’t have the money!)

Offline niwax

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #25 on: 07/12/2021 11:17 am »
It’ll be interesting to see if there’s a notable difference in demand for different types of flight (such as horizontal vs vertical take-off).

What they are marketing is the experience once they reach space, so I don't think it really matters how they get there, as long as everyone survives.

One thing that struck me during Richard Branson’s flight - and also mentioned on the NSF stream - was the extra time to reflect on the experience while gliding back down.

A flight on New Shepard is pretty intense, including descent and landing. Total NS flight time from launch to landing is about 11 minutes. Unity22 yesterday took about 12.5 minutes from apogee to touchdown, or about 13 minutes to wheel stop.

I think for some people - including myself - that difference may be significant. (Although academic in my case as I don’t have the money!)

Virgin seems to be vastly more capable in terms of designing a tourism experience, as would be expected with their background. Not only the flight profile, but also details around the capsule and so on.
Which booster has the most soot? SpaceX booster launch history! (discussion)

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #26 on: 07/12/2021 11:32 am »
Do more people want a traditional astronaut-like experience, in a capsule on top of a rocket? Or find a more aircraft-like vehicle and flight profile familiar and reassuring? It’s going to be fascinating to see how it plays out. I’m assuming similar ticket prices, but I guess a price war could happen at some point.

Personally, I'd want both. They complement, not compete with, each other. It's a chance to get the Edwards rocket plane experience as well as the early Mercury/Vostok experience. Perhaps some adventure company ought to start reselling pairs of flights as The Right Stuff Adventure Package.

The 800 lb gorilla in the room, of course, is the price. My wife and I were laughing our heads off at the hyperbole during the flight coverage, especially when they were saying that spaceflight was now in everyone's reach - even though it's priced at 4x the average pre-tax earnings in the world's wealthiest nation, most of whose residents would find an unexpected $400 expense catastrophic. Branson's ad copy is a strong contender for the 2021 Marie Antoinette Social Awareness Award, AKA the Cakey.

edit - fixed italics
« Last Edit: 07/12/2021 11:35 am by laszlo »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #27 on: 07/12/2021 04:55 pm »
https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1414601556821950466

Quote
Here's what I think Richard Branson's flight really means about the future of spaceflight: It was vain. It was flamboyant. But most importantly, it completely changes the game.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/07/heres-why-richard-bransons-flight-matters-and-yes-it-really-matters/

Quote
Here’s why Richard Branson’s flight matters—and, yes, it really matters
“I absolutely believe this is that moment."

ERIC BERGER - 7/12/2021, 3:50 PM

I’m with Eric on this:

Quote
It is also true that only the very rich can afford to go to space now, but you have to start somewhere.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #28 on: 07/12/2021 04:55 pm »
Interesting:

https://twitter.com/rogozin/status/1414290445493018627

Google translate:

Quote
I hope that someday our billionaire oligarchs will start spending their money not on regular yachts and vanity fairs, but on the development of space technologies and knowledge about space.

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #29 on: 07/12/2021 10:37 pm »
Interesting:

https://twitter.com/rogozin/status/1414290445493018627

Google translate:

Quote
I hope that someday our billionaire oligarchs will start spending their money not on regular yachts and vanity fairs, but on the development of space technologies and knowledge about space.


Ooooh, is that a threat or a promise...

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #30 on: 07/13/2021 04:28 am »
Interesting:

https://twitter.com/rogozin/status/1414290445493018627

Google translate:

Quote
I hope that someday our billionaire oligarchs will start spending their money not on regular yachts and vanity fairs, but on the development of space technologies and knowledge about space.


Ooooh, is that a threat or a promise...


See it as a plea for help. Since the space budget from the Russian government will likely be shrinking in the years ahead as fossil fuels usage declines worldwide.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #31 on: 07/19/2021 03:54 pm »
Interesting couple of suborbital flight tags on this tweet …

https://twitter.com/spaceadventures/status/1417149792770301961

Quote
While visiting the International Space Station, Space Adventures' #space flight clients orbit Earth every 90 minutes while traveling at 17,000 miles per hour. They witness 16 sunrises and 16 sunsets each day! What a view! #ISS #NewShepard #Unity22 #Soyuz

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #32 on: 07/19/2021 04:06 pm »
Interesting:

https://twitter.com/rogozin/status/1414290445493018627

Google translate:

Quote
I hope that someday our billionaire oligarchs will start spending their money not on regular yachts and vanity fairs, but on the development of space technologies and knowledge about space.


Ooooh, is that a threat or a promise...

A desperate plea, certainly not a threat. Otherwise his boss (Putin is one of the richest men in Russia) would come down on him hard.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #33 on: 07/20/2021 01:56 pm »
If you’re wondering how the inaugural crewed flight of NS went, here’s a clue:

https://twitter.com/tweetsoutloud/status/1417477785673768968
« Last Edit: 07/20/2021 02:06 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #34 on: 07/20/2021 02:01 pm »
OK Elon, you're up next! ;D
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline docmordrid

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #35 on: 07/21/2021 04:56 pm »
I’m sceptical that anyone can predict likely market size before commercial flights are underway, but not long to wait now. I do believe that long-term the market will prove large enough to support multiple providers, for both suborbital and orbital.
>

The current joyride model is unsustainable, too many $$ for too few minutes and the distances covered you could achieve with a motor vehicle.

I see suborbital Point to Point as more sustainable, be it using the Starship model, winged, lifting body, or waverider vehicle of some kind. At that point these joyrides assume the historical niche now occupied by the barnstormers.
DM

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #36 on: 07/21/2021 05:40 pm »
I’m sceptical that anyone can predict likely market size before commercial flights are underway, but not long to wait now. I do believe that long-term the market will prove large enough to support multiple providers, for both suborbital and orbital.
>

The current joyride model is unsustainable, too many $$ for too few minutes and the distances covered you could achieve with a motor vehicle.

I see suborbital Point to Point as more sustainable, be it using the Starship model, winged, lifting body, or waverider vehicle of some kind. At that point these joyrides assume the historical niche now occupied by the barnstormers.

"Joyride" is not the right term (it's made to be detrimental). Suborbital flight is actually going to a unique place that many people have described as beautiful. You may not be inspired to go there indeed may likely not even have the spare money. But out of a world population of nearly 8 billion there will in my opinion be an almost endless queue for tickets.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #37 on: 07/21/2021 06:33 pm »
No commercial space astronaut wings for space tourists:

twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1417914073900064772

Quote
Interesting. So officially at least, most passengers on Blue Origin and Virgin Galactic vehicles are unlikely to be deemed "astronauts" by the U.S government.

https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1417914544198930441

Quote
Note that won't stop these companies from pinning "astronaut wings" on their customers. That's a huge part of their marketing. But according to U.S. regulators you aren't going to be an astronaut.

Details:

https://twitter.com/space_jared/status/1417907188949991426

Quote
The FAA has released a new order on who qualifies for Commercial Space Astronaut Wings and there are some interesting things in here.

twitter.com/space_jared/status/1417907190053081088

Quote
Two ways to qualify: (1) Either you are a crewmember that meets flight crew qualifications, demonstrated flight beyond 50 miles on a licensed launch, and demonstrated activities during flight that were essential to public safety, or contributed to human space flight safety... OR

https://twitter.com/space_jared/status/1417907190996811779

Quote
You could be an "individual whose contribution to commercial human space flight merits special recognition..." as determined by the Associate Administrator for Commercial Space Transportation. "These individuals... may not be required to satisfy all eligibility requirements."

twitter.com/space_jared/status/1417907191969878023

Quote
The honorary wings can be granted posthumously and all commercial space wings will be bestowed at the "total discretion" of the AA for Commercial Space Transportation.

https://twitter.com/space_jared/status/1417907192867565574

Quote
The AA for AST "shall be the final authority to make the determination that a crewmember is eligible to be awarded the Commercial Space Astronaut Wings. To verify that the crew has satisfied the eligibility requirements and at the discretion of AST-1."
« Last Edit: 07/21/2021 06:34 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline Bob Niland

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #38 on: 07/21/2021 11:10 pm »
re: “There’s room for 20 space companies to take people up there,” Branson told CNBC.

I can't be the first to point out that if Musk reaches his goals, the market for suborbital space tourism (SuST), and much orbital, likely evaporates the same day the first scheduled passenger P2P Starship departs, these flights being fractional-orbital. Cultural, philosophical, regulatory and economic consideration could stall either, sooner, of course, even with a flawless safety record.

In the meantime, SuST (and such orbital rides as are offered) have contributions to make (and are already making). They are going to iron out:
• passenger flight insurance
• passenger screening
• passenger training (if any)
• passenger garb
• passenger PPE
• in-flight cabin movement policies
• in-flight 0G SAS events, urp
• in flight emergency procedures

SAS is space adaptation syndrome. Perhaps Spacely Spacelines can partially pre-screen for that by ferrying the pax out to the platforms on small Zodiacs. :P
« Last Edit: 07/21/2021 11:11 pm by Bob Niland »
Working for SX could be exhilarating, as long as the job description doesn't include Master PERT Chart.

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #39 on: 07/22/2021 12:38 pm »
SAS is space adaptation syndrome. Perhaps Spacely Spacelines can partially pre-screen for that by ferrying the pax out to the platforms on small Zodiacs. :P

I can tell you from personal experience that zero-gee feels nothing at all like anything water-related, whether it's a ride across choppy waters in small boats or even underwater neutral buoyancy. The Zodiac ride hits your inner ear with continuously shifting acceleration changes while zero-gee is a constant lack of acceleration. In an underwater neutral buoyancy situation there is still a very definite up and down. While you are technically weightless, your insides aren't. You can tell if your head is pointed toward the bottom of the pool because the fluids in your inner ear pool downward. You can feel your internal organs shift position  as you change from head up to head down. Breathing feels different in different positions as the compression of your diaphragm changes. In zero-gee, on the other hand, it's all the same.

Whereas in 0g, unless you move something violently enough to generate centripetal accelerations everything just floats without any directional pressure (and associated sensations) at all. It's a unique situation that we don't have a chance to get used to here on the ground (or water).  That's probably why experienced pilots who do not get airsick and sailors who do not get seasick have all tossed their cookies in space.


Offline edzieba

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #40 on: 07/22/2021 12:48 pm »
Closest would probably be Simulator Sickness ('VR sickness' now that's a consumer product), where you have no change in perceived g-vector (i.e. you are sitting still) but the horizon (visually perceived orientation) and apparent acceleration (from optical flow) are varying wildly. Not the near-total absence of vestibular sensation of zero g, but probably the best analog for ground testing beyond what you can do in 25 seconds on a Vomit Comet.

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #41 on: 07/23/2021 12:32 am »
SAS is space adaptation syndrome. Perhaps Spacely Spacelines can partially pre-screen for that by ferrying the pax out to the platforms on small Zodiacs.

I can tell you from personal experience that zero-gee feels nothing at all like anything water-related, whether it's a ride across choppy waters in small boats or even underwater neutral buoyancy. The Zodiac ride hits your inner ear with continuously shifting acceleration changes while zero-gee is a constant lack of acceleration. In an underwater neutral buoyancy situation there is still a very definite up and down. While you are technically weightless, your insides aren't. You can tell if your head is pointed toward the bottom of the pool because the fluids in your inner ear pool downward. You can feel your internal organs shift position  as you change from head up to head down. Breathing feels different in different positions as the compression of your diaphragm changes. In zero-gee, on the other hand, it's all the same.

Whereas in 0g, unless you move something violently enough to generate centripetal accelerations everything just floats without any directional pressure (and associated sensations) at all. It's a unique situation that we don't have a chance to get used to here on the ground (or water).  That's probably why experienced pilots who do not get airsick and sailors who do not get seasick have all tossed their cookies in space.
Did you enjoy it or giveup your breakfast?

Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk


Online laszlo

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #42 on: 07/23/2021 11:06 am »
SAS is space adaptation syndrome. Perhaps Spacely Spacelines can partially pre-screen for that by ferrying the pax out to the platforms on small Zodiacs.

I can tell you from personal experience that zero-gee feels nothing at all like anything water-related, whether it's a ride across choppy waters in small boats or even underwater neutral buoyancy. The Zodiac ride hits your inner ear with continuously shifting acceleration changes while zero-gee is a constant lack of acceleration. In an underwater neutral buoyancy situation there is still a very definite up and down. While you are technically weightless, your insides aren't. You can tell if your head is pointed toward the bottom of the pool because the fluids in your inner ear pool downward. You can feel your internal organs shift position  as you change from head up to head down. Breathing feels different in different positions as the compression of your diaphragm changes. In zero-gee, on the other hand, it's all the same.

Whereas in 0g, unless you move something violently enough to generate centripetal accelerations everything just floats without any directional pressure (and associated sensations) at all. It's a unique situation that we don't have a chance to get used to here on the ground (or water).  That's probably why experienced pilots who do not get airsick and sailors who do not get seasick have all tossed their cookies in space.
Did you enjoy it or giveup your breakfast?

Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk

Thoroughly enjoyed it and hung onto my breakfast. It was magic and mind-altering, hope to do it again someday. If the prices for the tourist flights ever fall to mere-mortal affordable levels it'd be really fun to try 0g in a continuous chunk instead of 30-second snippets.

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #43 on: 07/24/2021 11:43 am »
No commercial space astronaut wings for space tourists:
...

I'm mystified by the fuss about government-certified astronaut wings. What good are they to anyone outside of a government-run space program? A 0g selfie would be a lot more useful for impressing friends and family and getting dates. Flight log entries take care of documenting experience for jobs. So what am I missing?

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #44 on: 07/24/2021 11:00 pm »
Comparison of some space tourism vehicles  ;)

https://twitter.com/teslaownerssv/status/1418805863914131456

Quote
Evolution of the spacecraft

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #45 on: 07/24/2021 11:05 pm »
No commercial space astronaut wings for space tourists:
...

I'm mystified by the fuss about government-certified astronaut wings. What good are they to anyone outside of a government-run space program? A 0g selfie would be a lot more useful for impressing friends and family and getting dates. Flight log entries take care of documenting experience for jobs. So what am I missing?

Kudos and the fact that a lot of people assumed spaceflight participants would get them. Not least as SS1 and SS2 crew were awarded government-certified wings.

Also VG and Blue have talked a lot about their passengers being astronauts and getting wings. So recognition by the FAA would make that official and not just a marketing boast.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #46 on: 07/25/2021 12:03 am »
https://twitter.com/wordsmithfl/status/1419059440834256899

Quote
From the March 2, 2003 @Florida_Today ... which lists @jkelly3rd as "space team leader" ... The article predicts the need for new spacecraft to start space adventure tourism. Now that @virgingalactic and @blueorigin have flown, we'll find out if the authors were right.

https://twitter.com/wordsmithfl/status/1419061344150736898

Quote
In 2003, Futron predicted 60 orbital tourist flights by 2020, and tens of thousands of suborbital hops taken by pay-per-view voyagers, according to the @Florida_Today article.

The Futron report was often cited around the X-prize and VG’s formation etc. It was clearly too optimistic about the supply side of space tourism, but will be interesting to see over the next decade how good the demand side forecast was.

Offline joek

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #47 on: 07/25/2021 12:35 am »
... It was clearly too optimistic about the supply side of space tourism, but will be interesting to see over the next decade how good the demand side forecast was.

That is an understatement. Futron also predicted a commercial launch market in the late 90's earl 00's (nothing to do with tourism) which never appeared. Ask Boeing, LM and (eventually) ULA how that turned out.

That said, don't mean to be overly cynical. Think we are seeing a turnaround (at least I hope). Everything in its time, and I hope its time has finally come.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #48 on: 07/25/2021 05:11 am »
Jeff Foust coauthored that, BTW.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline joek

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #49 on: 07/25/2021 09:14 pm »
Jeff Foust coauthored that, BTW.
Yup; report attached for posterity. Read it and weep.
Edit: and lest we pick on Futron too much, attached is another from Tauri of the same vintage.
(Several more where those came from.)
« Last Edit: 07/25/2021 09:24 pm by joek »

Offline su27k

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #50 on: 07/27/2021 05:42 am »
Will suborbital space tourism take a suborbital trajectory?

Jeff Foust's overview article at thespacereview.com

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #51 on: 07/27/2021 05:03 pm »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #52 on: 07/30/2021 04:11 pm »
I’ve elided some job posting details below (see original post); highlighted bit is interesting for this thread:

https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1421139207699959813

Quote
A fascinating human spaceflight job opening at SpaceX:

twitter.com/spacecareers/status/1421138581641379844

Quote
SpaceX is seeking a Astronaut Operations Integrator for a full-time position in Hawthorne, CA, United States. This is requisition R020747 and more details are available at:

https://boards.greenhouse.io/spacex/jobs/5429136002?gh_jid=5429136002

Quote
ASTRONAUT OPERATIONS INTEGRATOR
Hawthorne, CA, United States

SpaceX was founded under the belief that a future where humanity is out exploring the stars is fundamentally more exciting than one where we are not. Today SpaceX is actively developing the technologies to make this possible, with the ultimate goal of enabling human life on Mars.

ASTRONAUT OPERATIONS INTEGRATOR

The Astronaut Operations Team is responsible for integrating all humans that will fly on SpaceX missions. This will include guiding our future crew members through the development, planning, training, mission and post-mission phases. With the pace of human spaceflight increasing at SpaceX, both high level and extremely detailed coordination of astronaut time is critical to mission readiness and success. As an Astronaut Operations Integrator you will be responsible for developing tools and processes to help with managing astronaut schedules all while ensuring smooth operations throughout their time at SpaceX.

RESPONSIBILITIES:

Manage and maintain the comprehensive schedule of all active SpaceX astronaut flight crews
Develop the plan and schedule, integrate internal and external constraints, identify conflicts, and drive resolution
Communicate plans and schedules to stakeholders
Devise, uphold, and improve scheduling tools or processes that identify, analyze, and brief potential constraints on a monthly, weekly, and daily basis
Work closely with external customer schedulers to integrate travel and availability constraints for each crew member
Ensure that all crew members have a positive experience working with and flying on SpaceX missions from assignment to post flight

[…]

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #53 on: 07/31/2021 04:54 pm »
https://twitter.com/spacex/status/1421514177936453633

Quote
More than 20 astronauts from around the world are currently going through SpaceX human spaceflight training

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #54 on: 08/16/2021 02:19 pm »
https://twitter.com/SpaceAdventures/status/1427268161573900289

Quote
On a Virgin Galactic suborbital flight, passengers will look down on where they launched from. On a #Soyuz #space flight to the #ISS, our clients circle Earth every 90 min,
@yousuckMZ
 will see sunrises and sunsets, oceans, continents and weather systems. WOW! #SpaceflightChoices

Offline edzieba

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #55 on: 08/16/2021 02:38 pm »
https://twitter.com/spacex/status/1421514177936453633

Quote
More than 20 astronauts from around the world are currently going through SpaceX human spaceflight training
4x Inspiration4 crewmembers
4x Crew-3 (publicly announced)
4x Crew-4 (publicly announced)
4x Likely Crew-5 (given training time)
That leaves at least another 4, potentially for Crew-6 early training, or for Axiom Mission 1.

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #56 on: 08/16/2021 05:52 pm »
Don't forget that many missions will have back-ups undergoing training as well.
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Offline su27k

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #57 on: 09/01/2021 04:31 am »
https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1432698062531661825

Quote
Jefferies survey of high net worth individuals' brand recognition of space companies:

SpaceX – 89%
Virgin Galactic – 86%
Blue Origin – 52%
United Launch Alliance – 10%


https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1432703395970928653

Quote
Jefferies survey of high net worth individuals' priorities for booking a space tourism flight:

Safety – 86%
Overall experience – 50%
Duration – 39%
Spaceflight experience – 37%

Jefferies' question for these answers: "What would be the most important attributes when you think about potentially traveling to space?"



Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #58 on: 09/16/2021 09:25 am »
Congratulations to Inspiration 4 and SpaceX for an amazing and historic launch!

Here’s a great article that puts the achievement into context:

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/spacex-inspiration4-launch/620093/

Quote
The Space Tourists Are in Control Now
SpaceX just launched four private citizens into orbit for a three-day trip.

By Marina Koren

Couple of extracts:

Quote
The tourism era of American spaceflight is really, truly here. Yes, Jeff Bezos and Richard Branson flew to space this summer to inaugurate their space-tourism businesses and show off their high-flying services to their future customers, who will enrich the men even further. But their trips don’t compare to what the Inspiration4 crew has signed up for.

Quote
Now SpaceX isn’t just doing spaceflight as well as NASA did; it’s doing things NASA never attempted.

Offline jebbo

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #59 on: 09/16/2021 09:30 am »
As above, congratulations to SpaceX and the entire Inspiration4 team!
Fantastic launch and a mission that lives up to its name.

It made me start wondering about future tourist flights. AX-1 to AX-4 seem reasonably solid, but is there any news on the supposed Space Adventures Crew Dragon Launch?

Wikipedia has it as late-21 / 1st half 22 but the Space Adventures site is far less specific.

https://spaceadventures.com/private-mission-available-on-the-spacex-dragon/

--- Tony

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #60 on: 09/16/2021 01:29 pm »
It made me start wondering about future tourist flights. AX-1 to AX-4 seem reasonably solid, but is there any news on the supposed Space Adventures Crew Dragon Launch?

Inspiration 4 proves people can just deal with SpaceX direct. Granted, not everyone will want to be as hands on as Jared is and so may welcome someone managing things for them. But SpaceX could equally take that role, so I think it begs the question what can Space Adventures offer beyond what SpaceX can do?

Offline RoadWithoutEnd

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #61 on: 09/16/2021 02:08 pm »
I'd call any mission that goes to ISS a private-public partnership, and any private venture that builds itself around such a visit is self-limiting.  ISS is a sarcophagus of dreams, and a sad comment on just about every aspect of traditional spaceflight.

"Free space" missions like Inspiration4 get much closer to the point.  No one out there but "we ourselves": People who have gone solely To Go, with no obligation but that and each other.  To be The Beginning in itself, rather than an exalted afterthought in someone's two-dimensional Earth-bound agenda.
Walk the road without end, and all tomorrows unfold like music.

Offline jebbo

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #62 on: 09/16/2021 02:26 pm »
But SpaceX could equally take that role, so I think it begs the question what can Space Adventures offer beyond what SpaceX can do?

Indeed. In the days where tourists piggybacked on government launches, their value was obvious. Far less obvious now ... though perhaps for ISS flights there is still a role for them.

On the broader question of orbital tourism, it feels to me that the market for purely orbital jaunts is limited and that we need more permanent destinations before it can really take off. So Axiom Hub One/Two is a good start and not far off. Hopefully Sierra Space LIFE will become more real soon as well ...

--- Tony

Offline jebbo

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #63 on: 09/16/2021 02:35 pm »
ISS is a sarcophagus of dreams, and a sad comment on just about every aspect of traditional spaceflight.

I don't quite get this pessimism over the ISS. Its capacity is steadily increasing, and it enables establishment of commercial stations like Axiom ... hard to see a viable model for them without the ISS. But this isn't the thread to discuss it really. The one in the ISS section on commercialisation is probably best.

--- Tony

Offline abaddon

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #64 on: 09/16/2021 03:05 pm »
4x Inspiration4 crewmembers
4x Crew-3 (publicly announced)
4x Crew-4 (publicly announced)
4x Likely Crew-5 (given training time)
That leaves at least another 4, potentially for Crew-6 early training, or for Axiom Mission 1.
I know I'm a little LTTP, but don't forget the three* crew members who have been training (for a very long time for two of them) for Boeing's CFT.

Assuming Chris Ferguson will be replaced with another Boeing astro, which may not be the case, in which case it will be two.

Offline D_Dom

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #65 on: 09/16/2021 04:26 pm »
Not to worry, this party is moving at orbital velocity!
 To clarify, the twenty astronauts EDZIEBA mentioned are engaged in SpaceX training.
No telling how many more are working in some fashion with the "Old Space" providers but IMHO many are tourists in addition to being astronauts in training.

...
Quote
More than 20 astronauts from around the world are currently going through SpaceX human spaceflight training
4x Inspiration4 crewmembers
...
(edited to correct typos)
« Last Edit: 09/16/2021 04:34 pm by D_Dom »
Space is not merely a matter of life or death, it is considerably more important than that!

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #66 on: 09/16/2021 04:44 pm »
But SpaceX could equally take that role, so I think it begs the question what can Space Adventures offer beyond what SpaceX can do?

Indeed. In the days where tourists piggybacked on government launches, their value was obvious. Far less obvious now ... though perhaps for ISS flights there is still a role for them.

On the broader question of orbital tourism, it feels to me that the market for purely orbital jaunts is limited and that we need more permanent destinations before it can really take off. So Axiom Hub One/Two is a good start and not far off. Hopefully Sierra Space LIFE will become more real soon as well ...

--- Tony
One thing that occurs to me is that I think a lot of these “space tourism” flights are not really any different from what US govt has done in the past. Inspiration4 is doing biomedical experiments, outreach, etc. Kind of funny that Senator Nelson is considered an astronaut and yet the Inspiration 4 folks will not, even though they commanded and piloted the mission, acted as medical specialist, and will be engaged in experiments while Nelson was referred to as “ballast.”

I think the future of “space tourism” flights is doing experiments and maybe even more practical stuff like setting up infrastructure.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline trimeta

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #67 on: 09/16/2021 05:12 pm »
Kind of funny that Senator Nelson is considered an astronaut and yet the Inspiration 4 folks will not, even though they commanded and piloted the mission, acted as medical specialist, and will be engaged in experiments while Nelson was referred to as “ballast.”

This is actually an interesting question: if we look at the FAA's recently-updated policy on eligibility for astronaut wings, the three requirements are "Meet the requirements for flight crew qualifications and training under Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 460," "Demonstrated flight beyond 50 statute miles above the surface of the Earth as flight crew on an FAA/AST licensed or permitted launch or reentry vehicle," and "Demonstrated activities during flight that were essential to public safety, or contributed to human space flight safety." The Inspiration4 crew certainly meet the middle requirement, and arguably their health experiments (in conjunction with TRISH) satisfy the third requirement. For the first, we can look at 14 CFR § 460.5. Parts (a) and (b) seem like exactly the type of training the Inspiration4 crew received, so the question is whether Isaacman and Proctor (the Commander and Pilot of the mission) received training and certification in accordance with parts (c) and (d), and if Arceneaux (as the Medical Officer) along with possibly Isaacman and Proctor (whose roles may also qualify as "safety-critical") received certification in accordance with part (e). With six months of training, it wouldn't surprise me if they did, in which case they (along with Sembroski, who I think would only need to pass parts (a) and (b)) would receive official FAA astronaut wings.

Edit: Wait, an "FAA second-class airman medical certificate" as required by part (e) isn't a training, it's a medical check-up. I'm sure all four crew members of Inspiration4 had careful medical screenings, but I don't think SpaceX would turn them down if they failed one or more of the specific requirements here. I guess it depends whether they happen to have passed all the tests.
« Last Edit: 09/16/2021 05:21 pm by trimeta »

Offline trimeta

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #68 on: 09/16/2021 09:42 pm »
On the topic I discussed earlier, this article at CNN suggests that the FAA may withhold Commercial Space Astronaut Wings from the Inspiration4 crew for "didn't cross all the T's and dot all the I's" reasons. At some point, if the FAA refuses to give anyone its "Commercial Space Astronaut Wings," they devalue the whole concept and remove themselves as having any sort of authority (in the eyes of the public) for the distribution of astronaut wings.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #69 on: 09/19/2021 07:15 am »
From SpaceX press conference post Inspiration 4 splashdown:

https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1439386793326092290

Quote
Benji Reed says, in the wake of Inspiration4, the number of people approaching SpaceX about orbital flights is increasing significantly. I know they're already negotiating for missions three years from now. I'd expect demand greatly exceeds supply.

https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1439388568477110282

Quote
In response to a question about Crew Dragon capacity for free-flyer missions, Benji Reed says they will look at scaling up Dragon options. Also mentions Starship is "on the horizon," and that vehicle will be able to take a lot more people into space at a time.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #70 on: 09/20/2021 01:58 pm »
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/09/after-inspiration4-spacex-sees-high-demand-for-free-flyer-missions/

Quote
After Inspiration4, SpaceX sees high demand for free-flyer missions
"We have interest for both Dragons and Starships, which is pretty exciting."

ERIC BERGER - 9/20/2021, 2:37 PM

From article:

Quote
However, according to sources, the cost of an individual seat on future orbital flights is expected to be less than $40 million, and SpaceX will seek to drive prices down further for human orbital flights.

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #71 on: 09/20/2021 07:27 pm »
Musk and Shotwell have always stated pretty modest ambitions on Crewed Dragon for private spaceflight, but it's looking like this could be a quite reasonable bit of business for the company.  This "resurgence" has sort of crept up on me and surprised me.

Destinations, if any, and the transition from Dragon to Starship are pretty interesting.

Offline freddo411

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #72 on: 09/20/2021 09:23 pm »
I'm interested in opinions on Dragon2 tourist flights.   Please take a moment for this poll ...

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=54821.0

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #73 on: 09/20/2021 09:42 pm »
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Russian_Govt_allocates_60Mln_to_build_Soyuz_for_tourist_flights_999.html

Quote
Russian Gov't allocates $60Mln to build Soyuz for tourist flights
by Staff Writers
Moscow (Sputnik) Sep 17, 2021

The Russian government has allocated more than 4.4 billion rubles ($60.6 million) to space company Glavkosmos, a subsidiary of the Roscosmos state corporation, for the production of a rocket and spaceship for tourist flights by 2024.

Offline Tomness

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #74 on: 09/20/2021 09:50 pm »
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Russian_Govt_allocates_60Mln_to_build_Soyuz_for_tourist_flights_999.html

Quote
Russian Gov't allocates $60Mln to build Soyuz for tourist flights
by Staff Writers
Moscow (Sputnik) Sep 17, 2021

The Russian government has allocated more than 4.4 billion rubles ($60.6 million) to space company Glavkosmos, a subsidiary of the Roscosmos state corporation, for the production of a rocket and spaceship for tourist flights by 2024.

Wow, so we were subsidizing their cosmonauts flights at 70-90 million per seat. One seat was paying for the whole flight. At 30-60 million a seat would give them a cash flow positive on their flights.

Offline freddo411

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #75 on: 09/20/2021 10:19 pm »
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Russian_Govt_allocates_60Mln_to_build_Soyuz_for_tourist_flights_999.html

Quote
Russian Gov't allocates $60Mln to build Soyuz for tourist flights
by Staff Writers
Moscow (Sputnik) Sep 17, 2021

The Russian government has allocated more than 4.4 billion rubles ($60.6 million) to space company Glavkosmos, a subsidiary of the Roscosmos state corporation, for the production of a rocket and spaceship for tourist flights by 2024.

Wow, so we were subsidizing their cosmonauts flights at 70-90 million per seat. One seat was paying for the whole flight. At 30-60 million a seat would give them a cash flow positive on their flights.

I'm not surprised about this.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #76 on: 10/04/2021 07:43 pm »


Quote
Soyuz MS-19 is launching within the next 24 hours, carrying with it the first serious movie production on the ISS with Director Klim Shipenko and actress Yulia Perselid. By coincidence, while they're in space shooting a movie, Star Trek star William Shatner will fly to space for a few minutes on New Shepard,  becoming the oldest person to fly to space.
And in another unrelated story that's oddly related, a Kazakh businessman wants to trade one of the only surviving Buran shuttles for the skull of Khaaaaaan... oh wait I mean the skull of the last Kazakh Khan.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #77 on: 10/07/2021 06:46 pm »
From Crew-3 press conference just now prior to their flight end of this month:

https://twitter.com/spcplcyonline/status/1446178353816522759

Quote
Q-have you connected w/the Ax-1 crew and the Japanese tourists who will visit ISS while you're there?
Chari: yes, we've met all of them. This is great time in spaceflight.

Offline su27k

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #78 on: 12/11/2021 01:18 am »
FAA Ends Commercial Space Astronaut Wings Program, Will Recognize Individuals Reaching Space on Website

Quote from: FAA
Friday, December 10, 2021
WASHINGTON – With the advent of the commercial space tourism era, starting in 2022, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) will now recognize individuals who reach space on its website instead of issuing Commercial Space Astronaut Wings. Any individual who is on an FAA-licensed or permitted launch and reaches 50 statute miles above the surface of the Earth will be listed on the site.

“The U.S. commercial human spaceflight industry has come a long way from conducting test flights to launching paying customers into space,” FAA Associate Administrator Wayne Monteith said. “The Astronaut Wings program, created in 2004, served its original purpose to bring additional attention to this exciting endeavor. Now it’s time to offer recognition to a larger group of adventurers daring to go to space.”

The FAA expects the commercial human spaceflight industry to continue to grow and the number of people launching to space to increase dramatically in the coming years.

The Wings program was created by the FAA Office of Commercial Space Transportation’s former Associate Administrator, the late Patti Grace Smith. Its purpose was to recognize pilots and flight crew who furthered the FAA’s mission to promote the development of vehicles designed to carry humans into space. With three commercial space companies now licensed by the FAA to fly spaceflight participants, and companies conducting operations, her vision is largely fulfilled.

Before the Wings program ends, the FAA will award Commercial Space Astronaut Wings to those who had qualifying space travel in 2021, including 15 individuals who have already travelled beyond 50 statute miles above the surface of the Earth on a FAA-licensed launch. Individuals on qualifying flights occurring prior the end of the year are also eligible to receive Wings.

In addition, the FAA is making an honorary award of Commercial Space Astronaut Wings to two individuals who flew on a FAA-permitted experimental test flight in a space launch vehicle that broke up during flight in 2014.

For a complete list of FAA Commercial Space Astronaut Wings recipients, click here.

Offline su27k

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #79 on: 01/05/2022 04:03 am »
Majority of Americans don't want to travel to the Moon

Quote from: axios
Private human spaceflight has advanced tremendously in the last year, but many ordinary people aren't ready to visit the Moon themselves, according to a new Axios/Momentive poll.

Why it matters: Private space tourism today caters to an ultra-rich clientele, but eventually, the companies making a business out of sending people to space want to widen their reach to many more people.

Driving the news: The new poll found 61% of adults surveyed wouldn't be interested in taking a trip to the Moon even if money weren't a factor.

Actually 39% (or 37% if you read the bar chart) wanting to go to the Moon sounds like a pretty good number.

Offline trimeta

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #80 on: 01/05/2022 04:19 am »
Majority of Americans don't want to travel to the Moon

Quote from: axios
Private human spaceflight has advanced tremendously in the last year, but many ordinary people aren't ready to visit the Moon themselves, according to a new Axios/Momentive poll.

Why it matters: Private space tourism today caters to an ultra-rich clientele, but eventually, the companies making a business out of sending people to space want to widen their reach to many more people.

Driving the news: The new poll found 61% of adults surveyed wouldn't be interested in taking a trip to the Moon even if money weren't a factor.

Actually 39% (or 37% if you read the bar chart) wanting to go to the Moon sounds like a pretty good number.

A comment I read elsewhere pointed out that if you asked people if they want to go to the top of Mount Everest if money weren't a factor, you'd probably get a much lower number, despite that being a thing you already can do with probably a lesser or equal amount of training (Inspiration4 got six months of training just to be in orbit for three days). I suppose Everest is less cool, but I wonder how many of those 37-39% are making certain assumptions about "a trip to the Moon" that wouldn't bear out.

Offline su27k

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #81 on: 01/05/2022 04:56 am »
A comment I read elsewhere pointed out that if you asked people if they want to go to the top of Mount Everest if money weren't a factor, you'd probably get a much lower number, despite that being a thing you already can do with probably a lesser or equal amount of training (Inspiration4 got six months of training just to be in orbit for three days). I suppose Everest is less cool, but I wonder how many of those 37-39% are making certain assumptions about "a trip to the Moon" that wouldn't bear out.

I mean climbing a mountain is a lot of physical work, it's intimidating to a lot of people. I think it's safe to assume a Moon trip wouldn't be physically challenging. Inspiration4 got a lot of training because they're the first, I believe SpaceX officials said they're actively working on reducing the amount of training needed.

Online DigitalMan

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #82 on: 01/06/2022 06:11 am »
The video Hektor posted in the SpaceX Crew-1 updates thread is from the World Extreme Medicine conference, and has a lot of details on physical conditions for various spaceflight activities.

I would suggest everybody watch it, really great information.

Mountain climbing used to be my thing. One of the things it has in common is, you are out of range of emergency medical help in many cases. Physical training is a must, rescue training is generally dependent on conditions (like ice, ravines, etc), and other training may be needed depending on how technical a climb may be.

When I lived in NH I climbed Adams every Saturday one spring/summer/fall. I recall Inspiration 4 climbed Rainier, which is nice mountain. For a 3 day flight like Inspiration 4, you probably can find a subset of training that is necessary, compared to what Victor describes as training for the ISS mission I would think.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #83 on: 02/15/2022 06:45 am »
Polaris Dawn now included in orbital manifest post. Main mission thread is: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=55805.0

I’m assuming that SpaceX are covering the costs of their two crew members and so I’m not counting them as commercial astronauts.

I’ll add placeholders for the 2nd and 3rd Polaris flights later.
« Last Edit: 02/15/2022 06:50 am by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline su27k

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #84 on: 04/09/2022 03:10 am »
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1512414175628300296

Quote
The Axiom-1 crew launches today—are these guys tourists, astronauts, or what? The reality is that they are something new: an important part of the transition from spaceflight as primarily a government-led activity to one led by commercial space companies.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/the-axiom-1-crew-launches-today-are-these-guys-tourists-astronauts-or-what/

Online daedalus1

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #85 on: 04/09/2022 06:31 am »
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1512414175628300296

Quote
The Axiom-1 crew launches today—are these guys tourists, astronauts, or what? The reality is that they are something new: an important part of the transition from spaceflight as primarily a government-led activity to one led by commercial space companies.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/the-axiom-1-crew-launches-today-are-these-guys-tourists-astronauts-or-what/

Anyone travelling in space is an astronaut.
That extra tag you use (if any) is the question.

Offline kevinof

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #86 on: 04/09/2022 09:19 am »
When I go scuba diving I’m called a diver once I put on the gear and get in the water. Same as the instructor teaching a bunch of new divers 50M from me.  He or she is a professional diver and  I’m not… but we are both still divers.

My view is anyone that goes into orbit is an astronaut (and I don’t class sub orbital as astronauts but that’s just my preference).


https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1512414175628300296

Quote
The Axiom-1 crew launches today—are these guys tourists, astronauts, or what? The reality is that they are something new: an important part of the transition from spaceflight as primarily a government-led activity to one led by commercial space companies.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/the-axiom-1-crew-launches-today-are-these-guys-tourists-astronauts-or-what/

Anyone travelling in space is an astronaut.
That extra tag you use (if any) is the question.

Online oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #87 on: 04/09/2022 04:15 pm »
Some of my personal definitions. Also that because of the definitions the result is that there has emerged 4 types of astronaut.

My Definitions:

astronaut  -  Someone who has orbited the Earth several times or has traveled beyond Earth orbit (BEO).

Government professional astronaut  -  Someone who is trained and sent to orbit and those costs covered by a government to perform professional space tasks to achieve goals for that government.

Government tourist astronaut  -  Someone who is trained and sent to orbit and those costs covered by a government as a  guest visitor in space under a government political goal.

Commercial professional astronaut  -  Someone who is trained and sent to orbit and those costs covered by a non-government entity to perform professional space tasks to achieve goals for that entity.

Commercial tourist astronaut  -  Someone who is trained and travels to orbit and those costs covered personally or by a non-profit non-government entity as a guest visitor in space.


There is a blurring as to where the designation of professional and tourist is divided. And that can cause some confusion. So if you stick to Government Astronaut vs Commercial Astronaut it is more straight cut. This blurring of professional vs tourists is most pronounced when the person is sponsored and trained to perform in space tasks that achieve goals for the sponsoring organization. Recent history of the Inspiration 4 and the Axiom 1 missions have produced significant blurring since both crews have or will perform significant space tasks for achieving goals for other entities besides themselves.

Offline freddo411

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #88 on: 04/09/2022 06:41 pm »
Majority of Americans don't want to travel to the Moon

Quote from: axios
Private human spaceflight has advanced tremendously in the last year, but many ordinary people aren't ready to visit the Moon themselves, according to a new Axios/Momentive poll.

Why it matters: Private space tourism today caters to an ultra-rich clientele, but eventually, the companies making a business out of sending people to space want to widen their reach to many more people.

Driving the news: The new poll found 61% of adults surveyed wouldn't be interested in taking a trip to the Moon even if money weren't a factor.

Actually 39% (or 37% if you read the bar chart) wanting to go to the Moon sounds like a pretty good number.

Here's my off the cuff reactions to that stat.

Not to bad, considering it's entirely hypothetical ... there is no specific mechanism for someone to go to the moon, so it's entirely imaginary.  One person can image flying business class there and staying in a Hilton ... while another might imagine being in a spacesuit and mercury capsule for 10 days and using a diaper.

Roughly 50% of the people I know would not travel to Asia, mostly due to their imagination of conditions in a non-first world country. A much higher percentage would avoid travel to actual third world conditions.    Point being that a poll of random people can be very much against something, but that something can be very rewarding for millions (billions?) of other people.

Perceptions in such polls can radically change if/when people see movies/TV/celebrities/advertising showing things as glamorous or desirable.   This is mostly completely discounted with any reality of the situation


And on a more general note, I'm very, very happy and excited to see that space tourism is seeing massive growth in the 2020s


Offline SpeakertoAnimals

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #89 on: 04/09/2022 07:58 pm »
Some of my personal definitions. Also that because of the definitions the result is that there has emerged 4 types of astronaut.

My Definitions:

astronaut  -  Someone who has orbited the Earth several times or has traveled beyond Earth orbit (BEO).

Government professional astronaut  -  Someone who is trained and sent to orbit and those costs covered by a government to perform professional space tasks to achieve goals for that government.

Government tourist astronaut  -  Someone who is trained and sent to orbit and those costs covered by a government as a  guest visitor in space under a government political goal.

Commercial professional astronaut  -  Someone who is trained and sent to orbit and those costs covered by a non-government entity to perform professional space tasks to achieve goals for that entity.

Commercial tourist astronaut  -  Someone who is trained and travels to orbit and those costs covered personally or by a non-profit non-government entity as a guest visitor in space.


There is a blurring as to where the designation of professional and tourist is divided. And that can cause some confusion. So if you stick to Government Astronaut vs Commercial Astronaut it is more straight cut. This blurring of professional vs tourists is most pronounced when the person is sponsored and trained to perform in space tasks that achieve goals for the sponsoring organization. Recent history of the Inspiration 4 and the Axiom 1 missions have produced significant blurring since both crews have or will perform significant space tasks for achieving goals for other entities besides themselves.
Plus this mission is also hauling cargo for ISS.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #90 on: 04/09/2022 09:23 pm »
Majority of Americans don't want to travel to the Moon

Quote from: axios
Private human spaceflight has advanced tremendously in the last year, but many ordinary people aren't ready to visit the Moon themselves, according to a new Axios/Momentive poll.

Why it matters: Private space tourism today caters to an ultra-rich clientele, but eventually, the companies making a business out of sending people to space want to widen their reach to many more people.

Driving the news: The new poll found 61% of adults surveyed wouldn't be interested in taking a trip to the Moon even if money weren't a factor.

Actually 39% (or 37% if you read the bar chart) wanting to go to the Moon sounds like a pretty good number.
Only need 50-100 that can afford the trip to make it via business for 4-6 man crew vehicle. Thats enough trips to justify setting up ISRU plant to dramatically reduce needed tanker launches and mission costs.

Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk


Offline meekGee

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #91 on: 04/10/2022 12:01 am »
Majority of Americans don't want to travel to the Moon

Quote from: axios
Private human spaceflight has advanced tremendously in the last year, but many ordinary people aren't ready to visit the Moon themselves, according to a new Axios/Momentive poll.

Why it matters: Private space tourism today caters to an ultra-rich clientele, but eventually, the companies making a business out of sending people to space want to widen their reach to many more people.

Driving the news: The new poll found 61% of adults surveyed wouldn't be interested in taking a trip to the Moon even if money weren't a factor.

Actually 39% (or 37% if you read the bar chart) wanting to go to the Moon sounds like a pretty good number.
Only need 50-100 that can afford the trip to make it via business for 4-6 man crew vehicle. Thats enough trips to justify setting up ISRU plant to dramatically reduce needed tanker launches and mission costs.

Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk
I don't see the logical step to setting up an ISRU plant.

Did you put numbers on the cost of setting up and operating an ISRU plant of sufficient capability?  How dramatic is the reduction in cost?

Me thinks you'll achieve a reduction in Earth-side launches (which at that point are cheap due to full reusability) and pay for a very expensive lunar infrastructure that in itself will require support launches and probably personnel.

It'll take a lot more than some tens of tourist flights to make it a profitable proposition.
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #92 on: 04/10/2022 09:44 am »
Majority of Americans don't want to travel to the Moon

Quote from: axios
Private human spaceflight has advanced tremendously in the last year, but many ordinary people aren't ready to visit the Moon themselves, according to a new Axios/Momentive poll.

Why it matters: Private space tourism today caters to an ultra-rich clientele, but eventually, the companies making a business out of sending people to space want to widen their reach to many more people.

Driving the news: The new poll found 61% of adults surveyed wouldn't be interested in taking a trip to the Moon even if money weren't a factor.

Actually 39% (or 37% if you read the bar chart) wanting to go to the Moon sounds like a pretty good number.
Only need 50-100 that can afford the trip to make it via business for 4-6 man crew vehicle. Thats enough trips to justify setting up ISRU plant to dramatically reduce needed tanker launches and mission costs.

Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk
I don't see the logical step to setting up an ISRU plant.

Did you put numbers on the cost of setting up and operating an ISRU plant of sufficient capability?  How dramatic is the reduction in cost?

Me thinks you'll achieve a reduction in Earth-side launches (which at that point are cheap due to full reusability) and pay for a very expensive lunar infrastructure that in itself will require support launches and probably personnel.

It'll take a lot more than some tens of tourist flights to make it a profitable proposition.
For 10t lander 360ISP need 12t of fuel ( 2.64t CH4 +9.36 LOX) for 2.78km/s ie Gateway to surface.
39t fuel for round trip. Allows a little for boiloff.
With ISRU LOX (9.36t) refuelling on surface the down mass fuel is 17.5t + 2.64t CH4 for return. That 20.14t to earth fuel needed compared to 39t without ISRU. The fuel savings would be greater than that as tanks are about half size so reducing dry mass considerably.

10t LOX a year isn't that big an ask of a ISRU and only needs access to regolith not ice.

Things get better for hydrolox lander and ISRU water. Can even consider fuelling most of round trip from LEO by lunar fuel. This using OTV for LEO -Gateway-LEO trip.



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Offline meekGee

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #93 on: 04/10/2022 03:31 pm »
Majority of Americans don't want to travel to the Moon

Quote from: axios
Private human spaceflight has advanced tremendously in the last year, but many ordinary people aren't ready to visit the Moon themselves, according to a new Axios/Momentive poll.

Why it matters: Private space tourism today caters to an ultra-rich clientele, but eventually, the companies making a business out of sending people to space want to widen their reach to many more people.

Driving the news: The new poll found 61% of adults surveyed wouldn't be interested in taking a trip to the Moon even if money weren't a factor.

Actually 39% (or 37% if you read the bar chart) wanting to go to the Moon sounds like a pretty good number.
Only need 50-100 that can afford the trip to make it via business for 4-6 man crew vehicle. Thats enough trips to justify setting up ISRU plant to dramatically reduce needed tanker launches and mission costs.

Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk
I don't see the logical step to setting up an ISRU plant.

Did you put numbers on the cost of setting up and operating an ISRU plant of sufficient capability?  How dramatic is the reduction in cost?

Me thinks you'll achieve a reduction in Earth-side launches (which at that point are cheap due to full reusability) and pay for a very expensive lunar infrastructure that in itself will require support launches and probably personnel.

It'll take a lot more than some tens of tourist flights to make it a profitable proposition.
For 10t lander 360ISP need 12t of fuel ( 2.64t CH4 +9.36 LOX) for 2.78km/s ie Gateway to surface.
39t fuel for round trip. Allows a little for boiloff.
With ISRU LOX (9.36t) refuelling on surface the down mass fuel is 17.5t + 2.64t CH4 for return. That 20.14t to earth fuel needed compared to 39t without ISRU. The fuel savings would be greater than that as tanks are about half size so reducing dry mass considerably.

10t LOX a year isn't that big an ask of a ISRU and only needs access to regolith not ice.

Things get better for hydrolox lander and ISRU water. Can even consider fuelling most of round trip from LEO by lunar fuel. This using OTV for LEO -Gateway-LEO trip.



Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk

Just to make sure, you want to support 1 landing a year, by producing 10t/yr of oxygen, yes?

How much regolith do you need to process, how much power is needed? 

I'm trying to understand how little of a deal it is.

For example if you need to process 100 tons of rock (just a guess), you need to gather some 300 kg per day.

You're envisioning a remote controlled front loader type of device? And a kiln, reaction chamber, gas separation, compression and liquification, yes?

And some way to get the 10t of lox to the lander?

It just seems like a lot in order to save an Earth-side launch or two.
« Last Edit: 04/10/2022 03:33 pm by meekGee »
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #94 on: 04/10/2022 06:44 pm »
Majority of Americans don't want to travel to the Moon

Quote from: axios
Private human spaceflight has advanced tremendously in the last year, but many ordinary people aren't ready to visit the Moon themselves, according to a new Axios/Momentive poll.

Why it matters: Private space tourism today caters to an ultra-rich clientele, but eventually, the companies making a business out of sending people to space want to widen their reach to many more people.

Driving the news: The new poll found 61% of adults surveyed wouldn't be interested in taking a trip to the Moon even if money weren't a factor.

Actually 39% (or 37% if you read the bar chart) wanting to go to the Moon sounds like a pretty good number.
Only need 50-100 that can afford the trip to make it via business for 4-6 man crew vehicle. Thats enough trips to justify setting up ISRU plant to dramatically reduce needed tanker launches and mission costs.

Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk
I don't see the logical step to setting up an ISRU plant.

Did you put numbers on the cost of setting up and operating an ISRU plant of sufficient capability?  How dramatic is the reduction in cost?

Me thinks you'll achieve a reduction in Earth-side launches (which at that point are cheap due to full reusability) and pay for a very expensive lunar infrastructure that in itself will require support launches and probably personnel.

It'll take a lot more than some tens of tourist flights to make it a profitable proposition.
For 10t lander 360ISP need 12t of fuel ( 2.64t CH4 +9.36 LOX) for 2.78km/s ie Gateway to surface.
39t fuel for round trip. Allows a little for boiloff.
With ISRU LOX (9.36t) refuelling on surface the down mass fuel is 17.5t + 2.64t CH4 for return. That 20.14t to earth fuel needed compared to 39t without ISRU. The fuel savings would be greater than that as tanks are about half size so reducing dry mass considerably.

10t LOX a year isn't that big an ask of a ISRU and only needs access to regolith not ice.

Things get better for hydrolox lander and ISRU water. Can even consider fuelling most of round trip from LEO by lunar fuel. This using OTV for LEO -Gateway-LEO trip.



Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk

Just to make sure, you want to support 1 landing a year, by producing 10t/yr of oxygen, yes?

How much regolith do you need to process, how much power is needed? 

I'm trying to understand how little of a deal it is.

For example if you need to process 100 tons of rock (just a guess), you need to gather some 300 kg per day.

You're envisioning a remote controlled front loader type of device? And a kiln, reaction chamber, gas separation, compression and liquification, yes?

And some way to get the 10t of lox to the lander?

It just seems like a lot in order to save an Earth-side launch or two.

Regolith by MASS (Edited. not volume) which I edited is approaching 45% oxygen. There are a couple companies building pilot plants to do electrolysis of regolith,. Oxygen is near term product with metal being byproduct for construction in long term. See link below for one example.

https://www.space.com/esa-oxygen-from-lunar-regolith-demonstration.html

Google Electrolysis of Lunar Regolith for others. Most have some government funding.

As rough rule of thumb 10kwh  of power will produce 1kg of Hydrolox from lunar ice. Electrolysis of regolith should be similar for 890gm of LOX. (LOX from kg of ice).


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« Last Edit: 04/10/2022 10:28 pm by TrevorMonty »

Offline meekGee

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #95 on: 04/10/2022 09:25 pm »
Majority of Americans don't want to travel to the Moon

Quote from: axios
Private human spaceflight has advanced tremendously in the last year, but many ordinary people aren't ready to visit the Moon themselves, according to a new Axios/Momentive poll.

Why it matters: Private space tourism today caters to an ultra-rich clientele, but eventually, the companies making a business out of sending people to space want to widen their reach to many more people.

Driving the news: The new poll found 61% of adults surveyed wouldn't be interested in taking a trip to the Moon even if money weren't a factor.

Actually 39% (or 37% if you read the bar chart) wanting to go to the Moon sounds like a pretty good number.
Only need 50-100 that can afford the trip to make it via business for 4-6 man crew vehicle. Thats enough trips to justify setting up ISRU plant to dramatically reduce needed tanker launches and mission costs.

Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk
I don't see the logical step to setting up an ISRU plant.

Did you put numbers on the cost of setting up and operating an ISRU plant of sufficient capability?  How dramatic is the reduction in cost?

Me thinks you'll achieve a reduction in Earth-side launches (which at that point are cheap due to full reusability) and pay for a very expensive lunar infrastructure that in itself will require support launches and probably personnel.

It'll take a lot more than some tens of tourist flights to make it a profitable proposition.
For 10t lander 360ISP need 12t of fuel ( 2.64t CH4 +9.36 LOX) for 2.78km/s ie Gateway to surface.
39t fuel for round trip. Allows a little for boiloff.
With ISRU LOX (9.36t) refuelling on surface the down mass fuel is 17.5t + 2.64t CH4 for return. That 20.14t to earth fuel needed compared to 39t without ISRU. The fuel savings would be greater than that as tanks are about half size so reducing dry mass considerably.

10t LOX a year isn't that big an ask of a ISRU and only needs access to regolith not ice.

Things get better for hydrolox lander and ISRU water. Can even consider fuelling most of round trip from LEO by lunar fuel. This using OTV for LEO -Gateway-LEO trip.



Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk

Just to make sure, you want to support 1 landing a year, by producing 10t/yr of oxygen, yes?

How much regolith do you need to process, how much power is needed? 

I'm trying to understand how little of a deal it is.

For example if you need to process 100 tons of rock (just a guess), you need to gather some 300 kg per day.

You're envisioning a remote controlled front loader type of device? And a kiln, reaction chamber, gas separation, compression and liquification, yes?

And some way to get the 10t of lox to the lander?

It just seems like a lot in order to save an Earth-side launch or two.

Regolith by volume is approaching 45% oxygen. There are a couple companies building pilot plants to do electrolysis of regolith,. Oxygen is near term product with metal being byproduct for construction in long term. See link below for one example.

https://www.space.com/esa-oxygen-from-lunar-regolith-demonstration.html

Google Electrolysis of Lunar Regolith for others. Most have some government funding.

As rough rule of thumb 10kwh  of power will produce 1kg of Hydrolox from lunar ice. Electrolysis of regolith should be similar for 890gm of LOX. (LOX from kg of ice).


Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk
Volume is a finicky metric, since it's not well defined for loose gravel, or for a gas (under what pressure/temperature) - so let's go with mass.

I suspect some rocks have a rather high Oxygen content by mass, but what you scavenge at the surface is going to be a mixed bag.  Also the process will have a yield that's way lower than 100%.

Whatever the final numbers, it's tens to hundreds of tons of rocks processed, tons of LoX transported and refuelled  and quite a bit of power.

The infrastructure to do all of this is going to be many times those 10 tons.

It may be a good thing to do for the future, but it won't be a sensible investment to support one or even ten launches a year.
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #96 on: 04/10/2022 10:31 pm »
Edited my post should be 45% by mass not volume so 30t should easily yield 10t.

Doesn't take to many trips for ISRU to start paying for its self. The initial plant is most expensive, with follow on ones becoming cheaper as they can use fuel from first one to reduce transport costs. If ISRU fuel becomes cheap enough its possible to partially refuel  US in LEO to help with reentry. This maybe fuel for landing and water or LH to cool heatshield during reentry.

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« Last Edit: 04/10/2022 10:38 pm by TrevorMonty »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #97 on: 08/02/2022 01:02 pm »
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1554446208629891073

Quote
NASA will require private missions to the ISS to be commanded by former NASA astronauts, something Axiom Space was already doing for its initial missions (but had talked about flying customers only in later missions.)

https://spacenews.com/nasa-revises-requirements-for-iss-private-astronaut-missions/

NASA details are here:

https://sam.gov/opp/23b1521f8c154f1caa2f3b2b0e551f28/view


Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #98 on: 08/02/2022 01:38 pm »
Sounds like something the Astronaut Office would lobby for to ensure their post-retirement career was more lucrative.
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To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline butters

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #99 on: 08/02/2022 02:11 pm »
And they're careful about specifying that it has to be a flown NASA government astronaut, since NASA's official definition of "astronaut" doesn't require them to have actually flown on a mission in space. So, for example, Anil Menon can't quit the NASA astronaut corps and command a Crew Dragon mission to the ISS for Axiom or SpaceX, he has to wait for NASA to fly him.

But I do know somebody who would be perfect. What could be more reassuring to the US segment crew than receiving a visiting vehicle commanded by none other than NASA Administrator and genuine government astronaut Bill Nelson himself!

This is all cute and everything, and totally within NASA's prerogative as owner-operator of the ISS. But I suspect the Commercial LEO Destinations bidders are less excited by the prospect of NASA telling them who can and cannot command private missions to their stations. They won't be able to pull this crap in the future. Enjoy it while it lasts, I guess.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #100 on: 08/02/2022 02:19 pm »
…They won't be able to pull this crap in the future. Enjoy it while it lasts, I guess.
Congress added a provision to the recent NASA bill that NASA can ONLY use government astronauts for Artemis missions. So…
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To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #101 on: 08/02/2022 09:14 pm »
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1554446208629891073

Quote
NASA will require private missions to the ISS to be commanded by former NASA astronauts, something Axiom Space was already doing for its initial missions (but had talked about flying customers only in later missions.)

https://spacenews.com/nasa-revises-requirements-for-iss-private-astronaut-missions/

NASA details are here:

https://sam.gov/opp/23b1521f8c154f1caa2f3b2b0e551f28/view
They are just making sure Jared Issacman don't get any ideas of buying a command ride to the ISS. :P

Somewhat amusing that Issacman with 2 flights as Crew Dragon commander after the first Polaris Dawn mission isn't allowed to command a commercial mission to the ISS.

All this new NASA requirement does is to remove one commercial vehicle seat available to paying customers per flight.

 

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #102 on: 08/02/2022 09:31 pm »
They likely will, at some point, revisit the requirement for the mission commander from a NASA astronaut, down to just someone who has previously had spaceflight experience on the ISS. It's not a huge burden for the first few missions, but NASA should be able to relax that requirement, in particular when Axiom has its own module(s) on the ISS and doesn't need to continually rely on use of the main USOS.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
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Offline butters

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #103 on: 08/02/2022 10:10 pm »
All this new NASA requirement does is to remove one commercial vehicle seat available to paying customers per flight.
NASA sold companies like Nanoracks and Axiom on a commercial business model for the ISS, drawing a considerable amount of private investment in things like the Bishop airlock, but just as soon as these ventures came online, they dramatically jacked up the pricing structure for ISS resources and claimed 25% of the passenger capacity for alumni emeritus. Excellent business partners, these NASA folks. Makes you just want to put more skin in the game and bid more aggressively on Commercial LEO Destinations, dunnit.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #104 on: 08/02/2022 10:14 pm »
They likely will, at some point, revisit the requirement for the mission commander from a NASA astronaut, down to just someone who has previously had spaceflight experience on the ISS. It's not a huge burden for the first few missions, but NASA should be able to relax that requirement, in particular when Axiom has its own module(s) on the ISS and doesn't need to continually rely on use of the main USOS.

Hopefully they will. But somehow I doubt they will relaxed the requirement for a former flown NASA Astronaut as commercial vehicle commander before the ISS goes away.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #105 on: 08/02/2022 10:22 pm »
All this new NASA requirement does is to remove one commercial vehicle seat available to paying customers per flight.
NASA sold companies like Nanoracks and Axiom on a commercial business model for the ISS, drawing a considerable amount of private investment in things like the Bishop airlock, but just as soon as these ventures came online, they dramatically jacked up the pricing structure for ISS resources and claimed 25% of the passenger capacity for alumni emeritus. Excellent business partners, these NASA folks. Makes you just want to put more skin in the game and bid more aggressively on Commercial LEO Destinations, dunnit.
Why put more skin in the game? Time to consider non-NASA LEO destinations that isn't subject to arbitrarily whims of NASA/Congress to pull a Darth Vader like contract revision.

Offline butters

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #106 on: 08/02/2022 11:08 pm »
Requiring retired NASA astronauts on private missions is also not the best way to affect a shift toward a more proportional representation of humanity in space. They're not *all* white guys with AARP cards, but if you ask an AI for a picture of a retired NASA astronaut, that's what you're gonna get. And unfortunately, that's also what will appear in an AI depiction of a private space tourist. Both of these cohorts are less diverse than NASA's active flown astronauts, who are less diverse than NASA's freshest crop of unflown astronauts.

So I have a modest proposal: NASA should put their rookie astronauts in command of short-duration private missions to the ISS, and compensate the commercial providers for giving their younger astronauts valuable spaceflight and command experience, preparing them for more complex NASA missions later on, and making the NASA astronaut corps more attractive amid the rise of alternatives. Let the fantastic young astronauts that NASA has recruited get their space legs looking after some fund managers. Everybody wins.

Online AmigaClone

Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #107 on: 08/03/2022 10:12 am »
Quote
NASA will require private missions to the ISS to be commanded by former NASA astronauts, something Axiom Space was already doing for its initial missions (but had talked about flying customers only in later missions.)

https://spacenews.com/nasa-revises-requirements-for-iss-private-astronaut-missions/

NASA details are here:

https://sam.gov/opp/23b1521f8c154f1caa2f3b2b0e551f28/view
They are just making sure Jared Issacman don't get any ideas of buying a command ride to the ISS. :P

Somewhat amusing that Issacman with 2 flights as Crew Dragon commander after the first Polaris Dawn mission isn't allowed to command a commercial mission to the ISS.

All this new NASA requirement does is to remove one commercial vehicle seat available to paying customers per flight.

I can imagine the companies who manage to put up a commercial station giving NASA a requirement to use one of their personnel on every flight.

For those complaining about that decision a few things of note:

Since 1977, there has been a rule in the Soviet Union, and later adopted by Russia that stated something along the lines of 'every crew had to have at least one person aboard who had previously flown in space.'

As far as I'm aware, neither China nor NASA has that rule, although that appears to be their de facto current policy.

China only has had three missions entirely comprised of rookies. The last NASA mission comprised entirely of astronauts who had not been on a previous orbital mission was STS-2.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #108 on: 08/14/2022 01:27 am »
From SpaceX press conference post Inspiration 4 splashdown:

https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1439386793326092290

Quote
Benji Reed says, in the wake of Inspiration4, the number of people approaching SpaceX about orbital flights is increasing significantly. I know they're already negotiating for missions three years from now. I'd expect demand greatly exceeds supply.

Interesting that ‘only’ the Polaris program has been announced in the 11 months since. I don’t think Polaris & Axiom are using all SpaceX’s capacity:

https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1518683076091592704

Quote
Benji Reed says he thinks SpaceX can support about six Crew Dragon flights a year; so 50 percent more than it currently does. Likely breakdown:

• Two NASA flights (until Starliner becomes operational)
• Two Axiom/ISS private astronaut missions
• Two free-flyers (Polaris, etc)

But with the next (non-Polaris, non-Axiom) private flight opportunity probably Q2 2023(?), perhaps no announcements of other flights until nearer their launch?

Offline su27k

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #109 on: 08/29/2022 02:58 pm »
JAXA, Mitsui Sumitomo to sell insurance for civilian space travelers

Quote from: japantimes.co.jp
The Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency and Mitsui Sumitomo Insurance will jointly develop insurance products for space travelers as they expect more civilians will venture beyond the Earth in the future.

The new products will likely cover travelers against damage to possessions — like existing travel insurance — as well as bodily damage before and after the adventure, the two organizations said last month.

JAXA will provide information such as the causes of accidents observed during its space missions or related training, while Mitsui Sumitomo will offer insurance-related expertise such as risk assessment.

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #110 on: 08/29/2022 11:24 pm »
Quote
NASA will require private missions to the ISS to be commanded by former NASA astronauts, something Axiom Space was already doing for its initial missions (but had talked about flying customers only in later missions.)

https://spacenews.com/nasa-revises-requirements-for-iss-private-astronaut-missions/

NASA details are here:

https://sam.gov/opp/23b1521f8c154f1caa2f3b2b0e551f28/view
They are just making sure Jared Issacman don't get any ideas of buying a command ride to the ISS. :P

Somewhat amusing that Issacman with 2 flights as Crew Dragon commander after the first Polaris Dawn mission isn't allowed to command a commercial mission to the ISS.

All this new NASA requirement does is to remove one commercial vehicle seat available to paying customers per flight.

I can imagine the companies who manage to put up a commercial station giving NASA a requirement to use one of their personnel on every flight.

For those complaining about that decision a few things of note:

Since 1977, there has been a rule in the Soviet Union, and later adopted by Russia that stated something along the lines of 'every crew had to have at least one person aboard who had previously flown in space.'

As far as I'm aware, neither China nor NASA has that rule, although that appears to be their de facto current policy.

China only has had three missions entirely comprised of rookies. The last NASA mission comprised entirely of astronauts who had not been on a previous orbital mission was STS-2.

Seasoned commanders only being a defacto rule, would suggest that's only a boostrap problem for an early civilian astronaut corps. Buildout of facilities will bring the necessary rookie->seasoned conversion numbers who then later take on the role of tour guides and safety personnel for paying customers, right?

If anything, doesn't it imply a poaching problem, as ASCAN's who have trained on NASA's dime but are way back in the queue, along with "retired" seasoned astronauts, seem like likely early private crew candidates to fill out the civilian astronaut corps. Same with chinese and russian astronauts after a certain point too perhaps? Roscosmos' new leader was saying they don't want an experience gap (getting rusty) when ISS shuts down but ROSS is not yet available, which implies they may consider going up to commercial followon stations, which leads to an additional private astronaut corps cohort.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #111 on: 08/31/2022 06:09 am »
From last month:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/07/a-year-after-sir-richards-historic-flight-were-still-waiting-for-an-encore/

Quote
Richard Branson won the space tourism battle, but his company lost the war
"Blue Origin already won the suborbital space tourism race on July 20, 2021."

ERIC BERGER - 7/11/2022, 8:25 PM

It has been 12 months to the day since Sir Richard Branson briefly departed this world, only to make a feathery return back to Earth, landing on a hot, dusty runway in rural New Mexico.

The flight marked a triumphant moment for Branson, who, just a week before turning 71 years old, fulfilled a childhood dream of going to space. In doing so, Branson beat fellow space-obsessed billionaire Jeff Bezos to the punch.

Offline Vultur

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #112 on: 08/31/2022 01:35 pm »
Its not really about Blue Origin beating them though.

At current New Shepard flight rates it would take ages to fly everyone who signed up for SpaceShipTwo, so I don't think Blue Origin has stolen the whole market.

SpaceshipTwo just didn't prove reliable enough. That's a problem unrelated to any contest with BO.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #113 on: 09/01/2022 06:50 am »
Its not really about Blue Origin beating them though.

At current New Shepard flight rates it would take ages to fly everyone who signed up for SpaceShipTwo, so I don't think Blue Origin has stolen the whole market.

SpaceshipTwo just didn't prove reliable enough. That's a problem unrelated to any contest with BO.
The market needs dozens of launches a year to meet current demand. At present it's 1 launch every few months for NS.


Offline Vultur

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #114 on: 09/01/2022 04:12 pm »
Yeah.

I don't get why NS flight rate is so low. Difficulties with hydrogen? Not really trying to operate it as a moneymaking business (vs PR value) in fear of a fatal accident?

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #115 on: 09/01/2022 04:26 pm »
Yeah.

I don't get why NS flight rate is so low. Difficulties with hydrogen? Not really trying to operate it as a moneymaking business (vs PR value) in fear of a fatal accident?

They are having a pretty consistent flight rate with humans in the same vehicle every 2 months. I believe they are building a second human rated capsule. That should allow for monthly flights.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #116 on: 09/01/2022 06:47 pm »
Yeah.

I don't get why NS flight rate is so low. Difficulties with hydrogen? Not really trying to operate it as a moneymaking business (vs PR value) in fear of a fatal accident?
Their flightrate will build over time as they gain experience. Look at how long its take SpaceX to build up F9 Starlink launch rate.

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #117 on: 09/01/2022 09:54 pm »
Yeah.

I don't get why NS flight rate is so low. Difficulties with hydrogen? Not really trying to operate it as a moneymaking business (vs PR value) in fear of a fatal accident?
Their flightrate will build over time as they gain experience. Look at how long its take SpaceX to build up F9 Starlink launch rate.

Falcon 9 has only a five year head start and the difference is huge, even more remarkable considering it is an order of magnitude more difficult to get to orbit.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #118 on: 09/11/2022 12:45 am »
I am not crazy about this but it seems that the Biden Administration is thinking of lifting the moratorium on adding new regulations to human spaceflight transportation.

Quote from: Marcia Smith
Harris assigned three tasks to Council members regarding human spaceflight:

-NASA is to develop a plan for a new microgravity National Lab as part of the transition from the ISS to commercial space stations;
-NASA is to finalize a plan for an initial lunar surface architecture within 150 days including consideration for commercial and international partnerships; and
-the Department of Transportation (DOT) is to identify interim steps within the next year to use existing authorities to ensure the safety of humans in spaceflight.

DOT regulates commercial human spaceflight through the FAA’s Office of Commercial Space Transportation. By law, companies flying private passengers to space are required only to obtain the customer’s “informed consent” and the FAA is prohibited from promulgating additional regulations for a certain period of time. That period has been extended several times and currently expires next year.

https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/space-council-discusses-stem-human-spaceflight-and-commercial-space-regulation/
« Last Edit: 09/11/2022 12:46 am by yg1968 »

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #119 on: 09/11/2022 07:09 am »
I am not crazy about this but it seems that the Biden Administration is thinking of lifting the moratorium on adding new regulations to human spaceflight transportation.

Quote from: Marcia Smith
Harris assigned three tasks to Council members regarding human spaceflight:

-NASA is to develop a plan for a new microgravity National Lab as part of the transition from the ISS to commercial space stations;
-NASA is to finalize a plan for an initial lunar surface architecture within 150 days including consideration for commercial and international partnerships; and
-the Department of Transportation (DOT) is to identify interim steps within the next year to use existing authorities to ensure the safety of humans in spaceflight.

DOT regulates commercial human spaceflight through the FAA’s Office of Commercial Space Transportation. By law, companies flying private passengers to space are required only to obtain the customer’s “informed consent” and the FAA is prohibited from promulgating additional regulations for a certain period of time. That period has been extended several times and currently expires next year.

https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/space-council-discusses-stem-human-spaceflight-and-commercial-space-regulation/
I interpreted it as not prolonging the moratorium indefinitely and to see which existing laws and regulations is applicable for regulating commercial human spaceflight. However the Congress will likely extended the moratorium a few more time, IMO.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #120 on: 09/14/2022 03:49 pm »
If you have a couple of hundred million or so dollars to spare and fancy a private trip to the ISS then you may be in luck:

https://www.nasa.gov/leo-economy/nasa-wants-to-open-space-to-more-people-supports-private-missions/

Quote
Sep 14, 2022
NASA Wants to Open Space to More People, Supports Private Missions

NASA is seeking proposals for two new private astronaut missions to the International Space Station as part of the agency’s efforts to open space to more people than ever before. With these opportunities, U.S. commercial companies will continue to play an essential role in establishing a sustained presence in low-Earth orbit (LEO) through the agency’s Commercial LEO Development Program.

The targeted flight opportunities will occur between late 2023 and 2024.

A private astronaut mission involves U.S. commercial spacecraft transporting private astronauts to the space station, where they conduct activities aboard the orbiting laboratory or a commercial structure attached to it. NASA is enabling up to two short-duration private astronaut missions per year.

“We are truly in an exciting era, witnessing a significant increase in access to space and expansion of the commercial marketplace in low-Earth orbit,” said Angela Hart, manager of the Commercial Low-Earth Orbit Program at NASA’s Johnson Space Center. “We recognize the importance of NASA’s continued support, and are dedicated to working with industry to identify areas where our expertise and unique capabilities support expansion, as with private astronaut missions. These provide a unique opportunity for industry to gain critical experience needed to select, train, and manage crews on future commercial low-Earth orbit destinations, as well as work with new science partners, future commercial partners and grow this non-traditional market.”

The new targeted flight opportunities will be the third and fourth private astronaut missions to the International Space Station coordinated by NASA. The first mission was accomplished by Axiom Space in April 2022. Axiom Space was also selected by NASA for the second private astronaut mission, scheduled for the second quarter of 2023.

Each of the new missions may be up to 14 days while docked to the space station. Specific dates are dependent on spacecraft traffic to the space station and in-orbit activity planning and constraints. Private astronaut missions must be brokered by a U.S. entity and use U.S. transportation spacecraft that meet NASA’s International Space Station visiting vehicle requirements, policies, and procedures. Refer to Focus Area 4A of NASA Research Announcement (NRA) NNJ13ZBG001N for additional details.

Enabling private astronaut missions to the International Space Station is part of the agency's goal to develop a robust low-Earth orbit economy where NASA is one of many customers, and the private sector leads the way. This strategy will provide services the government needs at a lower cost, enabling the agency to focus on its Artemis missions to the Moon ahead of human missions to Mars, while continuing to use low-Earth orbit as a training and proving ground for deep space exploration.

Proposals are due at 5 p.m. EDT on Oct. 27, 2022. NASA will host a pre-proposal conference to address questions related to the solicitation at 11 a.m. on Friday, Sept. 16, 2022. To confirm attendance, please email Kelly Rubio at [email protected] no later than 4 p.m. Sept. 15, 2022.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #121 on: 09/18/2022 04:54 pm »
https://twitter.com/free_space/status/1571516138621657088

Quote
Hungary is in final review of eight candidate astronauts to fly to @Space_Station via @Axiom_Space, with announcement expected in November. #IAC2022

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #122 on: 09/19/2022 12:07 pm »
And another one:

https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1571832432801845254

Quote
The government of Turkey signed an agreement with Axiom Space to send the first Turkish astronaut, who will be selected and announced later, on a future spaceflight:

twitter.com/varank/status/1571821692346826753

Quote
We signed a historical agreement on the first manned space mission to be carried out in the 100th anniversary of our Republic.

We will cooperate with @Axiom_Space for the training and flight service of the Turkish space traveler whose selection process is ongoing.

With #MilliUzayProgramı , dreams turn into pride. 🇹🇷🚀

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #123 on: 09/22/2022 04:07 pm »
So Axiom have been busy agreeing flight opportunities with several countries:

https://www.axiomspace.com/news/ssc-partnership

Quote
September 22, 2022
Axiom Space Partners with Saudi Space Commission to Send First Female Saudi Astronaut to Space
News, Release

Axiom Space, a U.S.-based space company currently building the world's first commercial space station, is working with the Saudi Space Commission (SSC) for a future flight opportunity no earlier than 2023. The partnership will bolster SSC’s exploration program through the addition of a robust human spaceflight effort. Axiom Space will collaborate with SSC to train Saudi astronauts for human spaceflight and prepare them to conduct meaningful scientific research in space, while making use of cutting-edge space technologies and scientific innovations. 

Axiom Space and SSC announced today their epoch-making partnership to fly two Saudi astronauts to space, including the first female Saudi astronaut. Saudi Arabia is celebrating its first national astronaut program dedicated to sending Saudi astronauts into space as a contribution to humanity’s progress, and in line with the progressive goals of the Kingdom’s Vision 2030. 

In an official press release outlining the new Saudi Astronaut Program, the Kingdom highlighted the scientific focus of the initiative, which will prioritize scientific experiments and research in areas such as health, sustainability, and space technology. The Saudi Astronaut program is part of the Kingdom's larger National Space Strategy.

"Space belongs to all of humanity, which is one of the reasons Axiom Space is pleased to welcome our new partnership with the Saudi Space Commission to train and fly Saudi astronauts, including the first female Saudi astronaut" said Michael Suffredini, Axiom Space's President & CEO while attending the International Astronautical Congress (IAC) in Paris. "This partnership highlights Axiom Space's profound commitment to expand human spaceflight opportunities to a larger share of the international community, as well as to multiply scientific and technological development on Earth and in orbit". 

Axiom Space is the commercial space industry's only full-service orbital mission provider, conducting end-to-end crewed missions. Axiom's broad range of services includes training and flying private astronauts, access to training facilities and instructors, hardware and safety certification, and operational on-orbit management. Candidates for flight complete Axiom's rigorous training curriculum over many months in preparation to live and conduct meaningful work in space. The expert team at Axiom Space is helping nations and organizations build human spaceflight programs, develop astronaut selection programs, and provide the expertise needed to expand the international community of space explorers to a larger and more diverse representation of humanity.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #124 on: 09/30/2022 03:10 pm »
https://twitter.com/wehavemeco/status/1575862701095534592

Quote
🎙 Today on the podcast: some thoughts on @NASA changing the requirements for future Private Astronaut Missions, how that puts pressure on the market to focus on a certain customer base, and how it changes the math for providers like @Axiom_Space.

https://mainenginecutoff.com/podcast/231

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #125 on: 10/12/2022 12:37 pm »
Wow

https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1580174983464357888

Quote
SpaceX is flying a second private Starship mission around the Moon, and Dennis and Akiko Tito are its first customers.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/10/spacex-announces-a-second-private-flight-to-the-moon-aboard-starship/

Edit to add: from the article

Quote
The Titos announced Wednesday that they purchased two of a dozen seats on a second SpaceX circumlunar flight around the Moon later this decade.

The other 10 seats are currently unsold.
« Last Edit: 10/12/2022 12:40 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #126 on: 10/13/2022 01:53 am »
Wow

https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1580174983464357888

Quote
SpaceX is flying a second private Starship mission around the Moon, and Dennis and Akiko Tito are its first customers.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/10/spacex-announces-a-second-private-flight-to-the-moon-aboard-starship/

Edit to add: from the article

Quote
The Titos announced Wednesday that they purchased two of a dozen seats on a second SpaceX circumlunar flight around the Moon later this decade.

The other 10 seats are currently unsold.

He's 82 so I can understand going for an earlier circumlunar flight. Otherwise, why not wait and go straight for a commercial landing?

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #127 on: 11/01/2022 01:27 pm »
Confirmation of Saudi deal with Axiom relates to Ax-2 flight:

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1587450126758445056

Quote
NASA confirms that the two people yet to be named on the upcoming Ax-2 private astronaut mission will be from Saudi Arabia. Names not released, but it appears they have already been selected and have started training.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #128 on: 11/18/2022 08:01 pm »
In the CRS-26 briefing call just now, SpaceX announced they are:

* Building a 5th (and final) Crew Dragon
* Looking to significantly increase the number of flights per Dragon (from the current 5; most components are being tested for 15 uses)

These things are being done to ensure they can meet customer demand. So clearly they are expecting significantly more Crew Dragon flights.

(See the CRS-26 thread for more details starting at https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=56660.msg2432125#msg2432125)

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #129 on: 02/12/2023 11:19 am »
Final two crew members have been announced for AX-2:

https://twitter.com/sarwatnasir/status/1624742985211559938

Quote
#Breaking: Saudi Arabia names Rayyanah Barnawi and Ali AlQarni as the two astronauts who will fly on the AX-2 mission in Q2 of this year

https://www.spa.gov.sa/viewfullstory.php?lang=en&newsid=2425562#2425562

Quote
In Line with Vision 2030, the Kingdom Returns to Space by Sending a Male and Female Astronaut to the International Space Station
Sunday 1444/7/21 - 2023/02/12

Riyadh, February 12, 2023, SPA -- The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia announced today sending the first Saudi female astronaut and a Saudi male astronaut (Rayyanah Barnawi & Ali AlQarni), respectively, to the International Space Station during the second quarter of 2023. This aims to empower national capabilities in human spaceflight geared towards serving humanity and benefiting from the promising opportunities offered by the space industry, as well as contributing to scientific research in many aspects such as health, sustainability, and space technology. The astronauts (Rayyanah Barnawi & Ali AlQarni) will join the crew of the AX-2 space mission.

The spaceflight is scheduled to launch from the USA to the International Space Station. In addition, the Saudi Human Spaceflight Program includes the training of two more astronauts on all mission requirements(Mariam Fardous& Ali AlGamdi).

The Chairman of the Saudi Space Commission, Eng. Abdullah Bin Amer Al-Swaha, clarified today that the Kingdom’s leadership is keen to give unlimited support to the space program. Through this program, the Kingdom seeks to activate scientific innovations at the level of space sciences, enhance its ability to independently conduct its own research that will reflect positively on the future of the industry and the country, increase the interest of graduates in the fields of science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM), and develop human capital by attracting talents and the necessary skills.

Additionally, Mohammed Bin Saud Al-Tamimi, the CEO of the Saudi Space Commission, expressed his gratitude to the leadership for the support and empowerment to the commission, which has diminished the obstacles and challenges and enabled major leaps of the Kingdom into the space sector. Human spaceflight is a symbol of countries' superiority and global competitiveness in many fields such as technology, engineering, research, and innovation. This mission is also historic as it will make the Kingdom one of the few countries in the world that brings two astronauts of the same nationality aboard the International Space Station simultaneously.

The Saudi Space Commission also states that this program comes in cooperation with a group of entities, led by the Ministry of Defense, the Ministry of Sport, the General Authority of Civil Aviation and King Faisal Specialist Hospital and Research Center, in addition to international partners such as Axiom Space, which specializes in human spaceflights and the development of space infrastructure in the USA.

It is also to be noted that the Saudi Space Commission had previously launched the Saudi Human Spaceflight Program. This flight is an integral milestone of a comprehensive program aiming to train and qualify experienced Saudis to undertake human spaceflight, conduct scientific experiments, participate in international research, and future space-related missions contributing to the Kingdom’s Vision 2030.

--SPA
15:04 LOCAL TIME 12:04 GMT
0010

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #130 on: 03/04/2023 03:39 pm »
Cross-post:

Quote from: Jeff Foust
In his talk last night, @CommanderMLA said Axiom is now in contract negotiations with NASA for the Ax-3 and 4 missions. Ax-3 could launch as soon as November and, like Ax-2, would likely have 2 gov't astronauts and one private astronaut. Ax-4 would be mid-2024, crew TBD.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1630221114600488962

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #131 on: 03/09/2023 07:03 am »
One of the less talked about risks of space tourism:

https://twitter.com/thejakenixon/status/1633560833501581312

Quote
I could never be an astronaut because I would just go WOAH!!! WOWWWWWW!!! OH MY GOD!!!!!! HOOOOOOOOOOO BOYYYYYYYYYY!!!! WOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH OH MY GOD!!!!! WOWWWWWWWW! WOAH!!!!!!! and a crewmate would stab me in the neck with a plastic fork nine hours into our mission

https://twitter.com/erdayastronaut/status/1633679219438899200

Quote
This is my greatest fear... 😂🙈 It's bound to happen

Hasn’t been an issue for any (suborbital or orbital) flights so far. Mind you a trip around the moon is another level  :)

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #132 on: 03/14/2023 09:19 pm »
Cross-post:

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-selects-axiom-space-for-third-private-astronaut-station-mission

Quote
Mar 14, 2023
RELEASE 23-028

NASA Selects Axiom Space for Third Private Astronaut Station Mission

NASA and Axiom Space have signed a mission order for the third private astronaut mission to the International Space Station, targeted to launch no earlier than November 2023 from the agency’s NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida.

“The diversity of currently available commercial orbital human spaceflight opportunities is truly astounding. NASA’s commercial crew flights to the space station for our government astronauts paved the way for fully private missions to space like Inspiration4 and Polaris as well as private astronaut missions to the orbiting laboratory like the one we are announcing today,” said Phil McAlister, director of commercial space at NASA Headquarters in Washington. “We are starting to see the incorporation of space into our economic sphere, and it is going to revolutionize the way people see, use, and experience space.”   

Axiom Mission 3 (Ax-3) is expected to spend 14 days docked to the space station. A specific launch date is dependent on spacecraft traffic to the space station and in-orbit activity planning and constraints. NASA and Axiom Space mission planners will coordinate in-orbit activities for the private astronauts to conduct in coordination with space station crew members and flight controllers on the ground.

“Axiom Space’s selection to lead the next private astronaut mission to the International Space Station enables us to continue expanding access to nations, academia, commercial entities, and emerging industries to research, test, and demonstrate new technologies in microgravity,” said Michael Suffredini, CEO and president of Axiom Space. “As NASA’s focus shifts back to the Moon and on to Mars, we are committed to transforming low-Earth orbit into a global space marketplace, where access to space moves beyond the partners of the space station to nations, institutions and individuals with new ideas fueling a thriving human economy beyond Earth.”

Axiom Space will submit four proposed crew members and two back up crew for the Ax-3 mission to the station’s Multilateral Crew Operations Panel for review. NASA is requiring all private astronaut mission providers to select a previously flown NASA astronaut as the spacecraft commander. Following review and approval from NASA and its international partners, the prime crew members for the mission will be named.

The Ax-3 crew members will train for their flight with NASA, international partners, and SpaceX, which Axiom Space has contracted as launch provider for transportation to and from the space station and to familiarize the private astronauts with systems, procedures, and emergency preparedness for the space station and the Dragon spacecraft. Based on current mission planning, team crew training is scheduled to begin this spring.

Axiom Space is obtaining NASA services to conduct the mission via both the mission specific order and Reimbursable Space Act Agreements.

Through the mission specific order, Axiom Space is obtaining services from NASA such as crew supplies, cargo delivery to space, storage, and other in-orbit resources for daily use. The order also accommodates up to an additional contingency week aboard the space station. This mission is subject to NASA’s pricing policy for the services the agency is providing to Axiom Space for in-orbit activities that are above space station baseline capabilities.

The order also identifies capabilities NASA may obtain from Axiom Space, including the return of scientific samples that must be kept cold in transit to and from Earth, return cargo capability, and the capability to use the private astronaut mission commander’s time during the docked mission to complete NASA science or perform tasks for NASA.

Through Reimbursable Space Act Agreements, Axiom Space will reimburse NASA for services to enable the mission, such as training for crew members and use of facilities at NASA’s Johnson Space Center in Houston and Kennedy Space Center in Florida. In addition, SpaceX has a Reimbursable Space Act Agreement with Kennedy for launch services.

NASA made the selection for the third private astronaut mission from proposals received in response to its September 2022 NASA Research Announcement and evaluated the mission proposals based on the provider’s ability to execute a mission successfully, NASA’s ability to support the proposed mission, and the mission’s contribution to the agency’s goal of low-Earth orbit commercialization. NASA also solicited proposals for a fourth private astronaut mission opportunity in 2024 and will announce the mission after successful completion of negotiations results in an award.

For more than 22 years, NASA has supported a continuous U.S. human presence in low-Earth orbit. The agency's goal is a low-Earth orbit marketplace where NASA is one of many customers, and the private sector leads the way. This strategy will provide services the government needs at a lower cost, enabling the agency to focus on its Artemis missions to the Moon and on to Mars while continuing to use low-Earth orbit as a training and proving ground for those deep space missions.

Learn more about how NASA is fostering a robust commercial low-Earth orbit economy at:

https://www.nasa.gov/leo-economy

-end-

Photo caption:

Quote
The SpaceX Dragon Endeavour crew ship is pictured docked to the Harmony module's space-facing international docking adapter. Endeavour carried four Axiom Mission 1 astronauts, Commander Michael Lopez-Alegria, Pilot Larry Connor, and Mission Specialists Eytan Stibbe and Mark Pathy, to the International Space Station for several days of research, education, and commercial activities.
Credits: NASA

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #133 on: 05/10/2023 11:45 am »
Launch of potentially the first commercial LEO space station, Haven-1, announced together with first crewed mission to the station: Vast-1.

https://www.vastspace.com/updates/vast-announces-the-haven-1-and-vast-1-human-spaceflight-mission-launched-by-spacex-on-a-dragon-spacecraft

Quote
VAST Announces the Haven-1 and VAST-1 Missions.
MAY 10, 2023

LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA
SCHEDULED TO BE THE WORLD’S FIRST COMMERCIAL SPACE STATION, HAVEN-1 AND SUBSEQUENT HUMAN SPACEFLIGHT MISSIONS WILL ACCELERATE ACCESS TO SPACE EXPLORATION.

LONG BEACH, Calif. — May 10, 2023 — Vast, a pioneer in space habitation technologies, announced today their plans to launch the world’s first commercial space station, called Haven-1. Scheduled to launch on a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket to low-Earth orbit no earlier than August 2025, Haven-1 will initially act as an independent crewed space station prior to being connected as a module to a larger Vast space station currently in development. The mission will be quickly followed by Vast-1, the first human spaceflight mission to Haven-1 on a SpaceX Dragon spacecraft. The vehicle and its four-person crew will dock with Haven-1 for up to 30 days while orbiting Earth. Vast also secured an option with SpaceX for an additional human spaceflight mission to Haven-1.

This represents the first time in history that a commercial space station company has both a contracted launch for its space station and a visiting human spaceflight mission.

“Vast is thrilled to embark on this journey of launching the world's first commercial space station, Haven-1, and its first crew, Vast-1,” said Jed McCaleb, CEO of Vast. “We are grateful to SpaceX for this exciting partnership that represents the first steps in Vast’s long-term vision of launching much larger, artificial gravity space stations in Earth orbit and beyond.”

“A commercial rocket launching a commercial spacecraft with commercial astronauts to a commercial space station is the future of low-Earth orbit, and with Vast we’re taking another step toward making that future a reality,” said Tom Ochinero, Senior Vice President of Commercial Business at SpaceX. “The SpaceX team couldn’t be more excited to launch Vast’s Haven-1 and support their follow-on human spaceflight missions to the orbiting commercial space station.”

Vast’s long-term goal is to develop a 100-meter-long multi-module spinning artificial gravity space station launched by SpaceX’s Starship transportation system. In support of this, Vast will explore conducting the world’s first spinning artificial gravity experiment on a commercial space station with Haven-1.

Vast is selling up to four crewed seats on the inaugural mission to Haven-1. Expected customers include domestic and international space agencies and private individuals involved in science and philanthropic projects. Visit vastspace.com/reserve for more details.

SpaceX will also provide crew training on Falcon 9 and the Dragon spacecraft, emergency preparedness, spacesuit and spacecraft ingress and egress exercises, as well as partial and full mission simulations including docking and undocking with Haven-1 for return to Earth.

HAVEN-1 FEATURES:

Compatible docking with the SpaceX Dragon spacecraft

Extend the on-orbit duration of commercial Dragon spacecraft human spaceflight missions for up to 30 days for four astronauts

Science, research, and in-space manufacturing opportunities - 1000 W of power, 24/7 communications, and up to 150 kg of pre-loaded cargo mass in Haven-1. Opportunities for lunar artificial gravity by spinning.

Fully independent space station providing life support functions and consumables for the full mission’s duration.

Privacy and control of your crew schedule

Large window dome for viewing and photography

Always-on internet via onboard Wi-Fi

Room to stretch and rest

VAST-1 - OUR FIRST EXPEDITION TO HAVEN-1

‍‍Fly to Haven-1 in a SpaceX Dragon spacecraft launched by the Falcon 9 rocket

For space agencies and private individuals

Fly four crew members to Haven-1 for up to 30 days

Be the first crew to visit the world’s first commercial space station

Available per seat or as a full, four-person crew mission

Advanced science, research, and in-space manufacturing opportunities

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #134 on: 05/15/2023 10:57 pm »
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1658221764646780931

Quote
Angela Hart, manager of NASA's  Commercial Low Earth Orbit Development Program, says NASA is evaluating proposals for a fourth private astronaut mission and expects to make a selection in the next month or two.

Presumably Axiom 4?

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #135 on: 06/16/2023 05:14 am »
Not clear yet who is paying for this flight, but Axiom is clearly tapping into a market for paid flights to ISS:

https://www.esa.int/Newsroom/Press_Releases/ESA_proposes_Marcus_Wandt_from_Sweden_to_fly_on_a_future_Axiom_space_mission

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N° 28–2023: ESA proposes Marcus Wandt from Sweden to fly on a future Axiom space mission

15 June 2023

Media representatives are invited to a press event on Friday 16 June at 16:00 CEST in Stockholm with Marcus Wandt, member of the ESA astronaut reserve, and learn more about a future spaceflight with Axiom Space.

Marcus Wandt was selected in November 2022 as a member of the ESA astronaut reserve after a year-long selection process. The 2022 ESA recruitment campaign received more than 22500 applications from across its Member States.

The Swedish National Space Agency (SNSA), together with other partners, is cooperating with ESA and commercial space company Axiom Space to support a future mission to space with Marcus Wandt. ESA is currently in the process of coordinating this mission.

ESA and SNSA are working on a proposal for an ambitious scientific, technological, and educational programme for Marcus that can be carried out inside Europe’s Columbus laboratory. 

Marcus joined the European Astronaut Corps on 1 June as an ESA project astronaut for the duration of his mission duties.

The Swedish astronaut is following intensive training program to meet the high standards required for space flight.

Marcus Wandt was born in 1980 and has an extensive experience as a military jet and test pilot for the Swedish Air Force.

Media registration

Journalists who would like to attend the press conference in person or via Zoom need to register no later than Friday 16 June at 14:30 CEST. Please contact Linnea Ilbring ([email protected]) with your name, affiliation and whether you wish to join in person or virtually. 

Press Conference details

Time: 16:00 (doors open at 15:30)

Venue: Rödbodgatan 6, Stockholm or via Zoom

ESA Web TV offers a livestreaming of the complete event (from 16:00): www.esa.int/ESA_Web_TV

Participants

-      David Parker, ESA Director of Human and Robotic Exploration

-      Mats Persson, Swedish Minister for Education

-      Anna Rathsman, Director General of Swedish National Space Agency

-      Marcus Wandt, ESA Project Astronaut

For interviews with Dr David Parker and Mr Marcus Wandt, please contact [email protected] .

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #136 on: 06/17/2023 06:51 pm »
Not clear yet who is paying for this flight, but Axiom is clearly tapping into a market for paid flights to ISS:

https://www.esa.int/Newsroom/Press_Releases/ESA_proposes_Marcus_Wandt_from_Sweden_to_fly_on_a_future_Axiom_space_mission

Quote

Could be a barter agreement for one of their modules.

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #137 on: 06/21/2023 03:38 pm »
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1671532969670893569

Quote
According to NASA's internal schedule, the Axiom-3 crew mission to the ISS is slipping into the 1Q of 2024. The flight is expected to include the first astronaut from Turkey, Alper Gezeravci.

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #138 on: 06/30/2023 03:58 pm »
https://twitter.com/spcplcyonline/status/1674392523681177602

Quote
Aschbacher: Poland will provide an addl 290 M Euros to ESA for a variety of programs and in addn will pay for a commercial flight to the ISS for a Polish astronaut similar to arrangement for ESA/Sweden astronaut Marcus Wandt who will fly w/Axiom late this yr or early nxt.

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #139 on: 06/30/2023 10:11 pm »
didn't know where else to post this, but a private spaceport is to be built West of Las Vegas. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/ready-for-liftoff-company-files-sec-paperwork-for-las-vegas-spaceport/ar-AA1ddWbT

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Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #141 on: 06/30/2023 10:36 pm »
didn't know where else to post this, but a private spaceport is to be built West of Las Vegas. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/ready-for-liftoff-company-files-sec-paperwork-for-las-vegas-spaceport/ar-AA1ddWbT

The space post would be more that tourism, so go ahead and start a new thread under the Commercial Thread here:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=6.0
« Last Edit: 06/30/2023 10:37 pm by catdlr »
Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #142 on: 07/17/2023 11:24 am »
First members of the public to fly to space on SpaceShipTwo announced:

https://twitter.com/virgingalactic/status/1680895930961371136

Quote
Who will crew #Galactic02 on August 10? Meet our first private astronauts who will also become the first Olympian and first Caribbean astronauts in space:

Jon Goodwin | Astronaut 011 | 🇬🇧
Keisha Schahaff | Astronaut 012 | 🇦🇬
Anastatia Mayers | Astronaut 013 | 🇦🇬

Follow their journeys and sign up for livestream updates →

https://www.virgingalactic.com/news/virgin-galactic-broadens-access-to-space-with-first-private-astronaut

Edit to add:

Quote
MEET THE CREW

JON GOODWIN

Virgin Galactic Astronaut 011 and First Olympian to travel to space

An 80-year old adventurer and first Olympian to travel to space (Jon competed in the 1972 Munich games).

Diagnosed with Parkinson's in 2014, Jon will be only the second person to travel to space with the condition.

KEISHA SCHAHAFF

Virgin Galactic Astronaut 012 and First Astronaut from the Caribbean Islands

A 46-yeor-old mother of two daughters, entrepreneur and health and wellness couch from Antigua and Barbuda.

Beneficiary of two spaceflight seats in an historic draw which raised $1.7m in grants for non-profit Space for Humanity

Passionate about empowering women to live
their best lives.

ANASTATIA MAYERS

Virgin Galactic Astronaut 013 and
Second Youngest Person to Travel to Space


An I8-year-old university student who was born and raised in Antigua and Barbuda.

Student at the University of Aberdeen in Scotland in her second year studying Philosophy and Physics.

Together with Keisha, the two will become the first mother and daughter to travel to space together.

BETH MOSES

Virgin Galactic Astronaut 002 and Chief Astronaut Instructor

Lead astronaut instructor carrying out all training and preparation for 'Galactic 02';
Beth will fly with the crew to assess the inflight experience while continuing to refine Virgin Galactic's training program.

Beth was the first woman to fly to space aboard commercial space vehicle, earning her FAA commercial astronaut wings in 2019.

'Galactic 02' marks Beth's fourth flight to space with Virgin Galactic.
« Last Edit: 07/17/2023 11:24 am by FutureSpaceTourist »

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #143 on: 08/04/2023 06:18 pm »
twitter.com/djsnm/status/1687195296168914944

Quote
For those wondering, these are the current costs for private ISS use - $10,000,000 per mission.

Bring your own food, supplies and take your own trash or you'll be paying ~$88K-164K per day.

But - life support, power and 12GB of data transfer per day is free.

https://twitter.com/djsnm/status/1687195840849530880

Quote
The $2000/day cost for food is presumably the cost of buying ISS approved food from NASA. Sorry, you can't just make a bunch of corned beef sandwiches and bring them in your suit pocket.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #144 on: 08/09/2023 10:23 pm »
Another Axiom customer:

https://www.axiomspace.com/news/poland-esa-agreement

Quote
August 9, 2023
Axiom Space, ESA Sign Agreement with Poland for Future Human Spaceflight Mission
News, Release

Houston-based company Axiom Space and Poland, with support from the European Space Agency (ESA), have signed an agreement to send an ESA astronaut to space on a future Axiom Space mission.

The exact mission and name of the Polish astronaut will be officially announced at a later date, following approval by NASA and its international partners.

“Poland will be the second ESA-sponsored nation to send an astronaut on a commercial human spaceflight mission, establishing a growing network of nations in Europe eager to explore the benefits of microgravity and positioning the region as pioneers of commercial space,” said Michael Suffredini, Axiom Space president and CEO. “We are excited to work with Poland and ESA to build a comprehensive mission plan in support of both national and agency objectives, and we look forward to bringing on additional partner nations around the world in an effort to build the human experience in low-Earth orbit.”

The ESA astronaut selected for the mission will focus on scientific research and educational outreach while on orbit. In coordination with ESA, Axiom Space will manage all aspects required for the preparation and completion of the mission, including access to training facilities and instructors, hardware and safety certification, on-orbit management, and post-mission support. As the crew provider, ESA will sign an agreement with Axiom Space to define and implement the mission objectives and prepare for all the operational services needed.
 
 “Cooperation with ESA and Axiom Space is an important step in the development of both the Polish space sector and science,” said Waldemar Buda, Minister of Economic Development and Technology of Poland. “A Polish astronaut will have the opportunity to test the most advanced Polish technologies. For our companies, this is a unique opportunity to gain flight heritage, which will be a proof of the quality of Polish products. The educational aspect is also important for us, as we hope it will result in the interest of many young people in the space sector.”

ESA’s Director General Josef Asbacher praised Poland’s decision to invest funds in not only the ESA astronaut program, but also several other ESA activities. “This reinforced engagement will enable new possibilities for Poland to lift its capabilities in the fast-emerging domain of space,” Asbacher said, “while the cooperation with Axiom Space opens new opportunities for our ESA astronauts.”

In April 2023, Axiom Space and the Swedish National Space Agency signed a letter of intent to send an ESA astronaut to the ISS. Through this agreement, the upcoming Axiom Space mission, Ax-3 now targeting launch in January 2024, will be the first commercial mission to the ISS to include an ESA project astronaut.

Axiom Space is the commercial space industry’s only full-service orbital mission provider, conducting end-to-end crewed missions to the ISS. The expert team at Axiom Space is helping nations and organizations build human spaceflight programs, develop astronaut selection programs, and provide the expertise needed to expand the international community of space explorers to a larger and more diverse representation of humanity.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #145 on: 09/12/2023 02:00 pm »
Looks like VG has a few more months of crewed suborbital flights to itself:

https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1701581621810307126

Quote
Blue Origin is working toward flying its New Shepard spacecraft early next month for the first time since an in-flight failure a year ago.

https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/09/a-year-after-new-shepards-accident-blue-origin-may-return-to-flight-next-month/

From the article:

Quote
The company's tentative plans call for an uncrewed test flight to occur in early October. If all goes well, Blue Origin is then planning its first crewed mission since August 4, 2022, to take place in mid-February of next year.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #146 on: 09/13/2023 04:56 pm »
Crosspost:

From Walter Isaacson’s new Elon biography:

Quote
It was good, he [Jared Isaacman] remarked, that Musk decided not to go to space himself after Branson and Bezos did.
"That would have been strike three," he said. It would have looked like billionaire-boys narcissism. "We were one strike away from Americans saying 'Screw space.'"
"Yes," Musk said with a rueful laugh, "it was better to send up four people out of central casting."

There’s another bit in the book that shows SpaceX were careful (not surprisingly) about who they chose for the first private mission.
« Last Edit: 09/13/2023 04:56 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #147 on: 10/16/2023 03:43 pm »
From the Axiom-3 mission roundtable earlier:

https://twitter.com/spaceflightnow/status/1713927138762526758

Quote
5/ Mike LA says following the first two Axiom missions, they've focused on optimizing training.

"I also think the SpaceX training has evolved to become more efficient."

IIRC Inspiration 4 Dragon training was about 6 months? (obviously with no ISS element) I wonder what it is now?

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #148 on: 10/25/2023 07:46 am »
The UK becomes the latest country to announce an agreement with Axiom for a future 2 week crewed mission (presumably to ISS on Dragon):

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=59761.0

Edit to add:

Bigelow Aerospace were clearly on to something with trying to sell orbital missions to governments / countries. BA were obviously hampered by delays to commercial crew and I also wonder if the established ISS - backed by NASA - is felt to be a more attractive prospect (although the ISS is getting on in years).
« Last Edit: 10/25/2023 07:58 am by FutureSpaceTourist »

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #149 on: 11/08/2023 09:25 pm »
A bit of a bombshell from VG:

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1722378334141603901

Quote
Virgin Galactic CEO Michael Colglazier says they will be moving to a quarterly cadence of VSS Unity flights starting in January, and pausing flights entirely in mid-2024 to focus on Delta-class spaceplane development. So, only a couple more flights left for Unity.

Wow. Despite hundreds of paid customers in their backlog. Suggests Unity can’t handle too many flights?

Delta ships don’t come on-line until 2026, so about a 2 year gap … !

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Re: Space tourism resurgence and manifest
« Reply #150 on: 02/21/2024 07:02 pm »
https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1760350975070445664

Quote
Max Haot, CEO of Vast, says his space station company will be bidding to fly the Private Astronaut Missions 5 and 6 for NASA. (To date, Axiom Space has flown the first three).

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