Author Topic: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024  (Read 421353 times)

Offline Jarnis

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #500 on: 03/12/2015 09:17 pm »
Props for something new rather than just an Atlas-based Cygnus-like disposable can.

Not sure how the $$$ side will work out. Either LockMart gets Atlas V:s from some kind of super sale (buy 2, get one free), or this will be... expensive.

Offline dror

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #501 on: 03/12/2015 09:19 pm »
Alas - A space tug !

This is the future trying to be noticed.

btw ,
http://aviationweek.com/site-files/aviationweek.com/files/uploads/2015/02/df-TUGpix_lockheedmartinconcept.jpg
This picture is wrong,  right?
Space is hard immensely complex and high risk !

Offline Comga

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #502 on: 03/12/2015 09:21 pm »
This image reminds me of my dog running up to a tennis ball with one in his mouth, then being conflicted.
What is Jupiter supposed to do with two PCM assemblies?
arachnitect:  Good point about the deorbit.  Maybe they ARE going to have two cargo "pods" at the same time, and swap the old one for the new one, with the new one going to the ISS and the old one riding the Centaur down.  That would seem to take two or three arms.  Still doesn't seem right.

It sounds like Lockheed is conflating CRS-2 with a whole-cloth space exploration architecture.  It's hard to imaging NASA accepting this "plays with everything" vision.  All they asked for was cargo delivery
« Last Edit: 03/12/2015 11:34 pm by Comga »
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #503 on: 03/12/2015 09:21 pm »
Great idea. Not sure about using Centuar to do the deorbiting (see concept drawing). It may require some expendable propulsion (eg small solid and gas thrusters) for deorbiting.

Offline jongoff

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #504 on: 03/12/2015 09:23 pm »
Props for something new rather than just an Atlas-based Cygnus-like disposable can.

Not sure how the $$$ side will work out. Either LockMart gets Atlas V:s from some kind of super sale (buy 2, get one free), or this will be... expensive.

Not necessarily. By leaving the SM on orbit, and keeping the delivery cans as simple as possible, I bet they'll be a lot cheaper than people would think. Remember, with it's available volume constraints, Dragon is currently costing ~$130M for ~3000kg of cargo. It's quite possible that the marginal cost of a tug delivery like this could be not much more than a one-use Dragon delivery, and probably for a lot more cargo.

Falcon 9 is really cheap in $/kg to LEO, but Dragon $/kg to ISS is substantially higher--it's an expensive wrapper (especially if used only once) that takes up over half of the Falcon 9 LEO delivery mass. Don't get me wrong--this same argument applies to all traditional cargo vehicles (HTV, ATV, Progress, Cygnus, etc). This was a point that Josh Hopkins (one of the LM guys who announced this) was making as an issue with propellant depots. Getting stuff to orbit is cheap, but using traditional delivery vehicles to get it to a specific space facility kills the cheapness.

~Jon

Offline jongoff

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #505 on: 03/12/2015 09:24 pm »
Great idea. Not sure about using Centuar to do the deorbiting (see concept drawing). It may require some expendable propulsion (eg small solid and gas thrusters) for deorbiting.

No, that's one of the things IVF is for.

~Jon

Offline guckyfan

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #506 on: 03/12/2015 09:24 pm »
Props for something new rather than just an Atlas-based Cygnus-like disposable can.

Not sure how the $$$ side will work out. Either LockMart gets Atlas V:s from some kind of super sale (buy 2, get one free), or this will be... expensive.

Per mission yes. But per kg payload? Maybe not, compared to Antares/Cygnus.


Offline acrotti

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #507 on: 03/12/2015 09:27 pm »
Imagine this tug attaching a service module to Hubble, to replace and bypass malfunctioning reaction wheels. No need of a human mission

Offline nadreck

Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #508 on: 03/12/2015 09:41 pm »
I have always envisioned large, multi-planar, satellite constellations with a tender like this one for on orbit replacement/service/disposal. The Jupiter-electric mentioned in the aviation week article could even service more than one plane. I could see 5-7 degrees of inclination change as long as waiting a week or two was cool.
It is all well and good to quote those things that made it past your confirmation bias that other people wrote, but this is a discussion board damnit! Let us know what you think! And why!

Online yg1968

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #509 on: 03/12/2015 09:42 pm »
I believe that at least 4 cargo missions per year must be proposed by each provider. But it can be more than four missions.

Not sure of that minimum.  I have not seen that in the RFP, although the RFI stated 4-5 missions/year as an "ideal", with 4/year preferred.

The minimum of 4 missions per year is also in the RFP (on page 79):

Quote from: page 79 of the RFP
NASA requires the service to provide the annual upmass required of the ISS in no fewer than four (4) flights per year with the cargo somewhat evenly distributed throughout the year.
« Last Edit: 03/12/2015 09:44 pm by yg1968 »

Offline dror

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #510 on: 03/12/2015 09:43 pm »
Theres no real need to launch on atlas v. Subsequent canisters can be launched on F9 or F9R
Space is hard immensely complex and high risk !

Offline arachnitect

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #511 on: 03/12/2015 09:52 pm »
Theres no real need to launch on atlas v. Subsequent canisters can be launched on F9 or F9R

If anything, this system is less flexible than a disposable vehicle like Cygnus because of the way it appears to use the centaur upper stage to deorbit the old cargo module.

I can picture a couple ways the orbital handoff works, and neither of them make much sense.

The Constellation Services/SSL architecture looked a lot simpler and easier.

Offline joek

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #512 on: 03/12/2015 10:08 pm »
The minimum of 4 missions per year is also in the RFP (on page 79):
Quote from: page 79 of the RFP
NASA requires the service to provide the annual upmass required of the ISS in no fewer than four (4) flights per year with the cargo somewhat evenly distributed throughout the year.
Yes, agree.  Sorry may not have been clear... note that the requirement is only for up-mass; there is no stipulation as to the number of missions required for down-mass (return or disposal).  In short, the minimum or maximum number of missions to meet all of NASA's requirements is unspecified.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #513 on: 03/12/2015 10:19 pm »
Where are we discussing this AWESOME LockMart reusable-refuelable-space-tug CRS-2 bid?
http://m.aviationweek.com/space/jupiter-space-tug-could-deliver-cargo-moon
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline joek

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #514 on: 03/12/2015 10:19 pm »
Ok, Jupiter allows for pressurized up, unpressurized up, pressurized disposal, and presumably unpressurized disposal(?).  That alone will not satisfy all of NASA's needs (although it qualifies for consideration under the CRS-2 RFP).  So presumably this is would be an adjunct to other proposals which provide for (at least) pressurized return.

So what is the price to NASA to develop Jupiter vs. an unpressurized variant of, e.g., Cygnus?  The  price for qualification is a factor in the price evaluation and thus relevant to the contract award and as a newbie, Jupiter appears to have a tough road to hoe (regardless of its long term potential).

The quote from Crocker,  "So I would say that while I think that ultimately this vehicle will get built, without CRS-2 as a foundation, it would be pushed way out." suggests it is likely to get "pushed way out".

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #515 on: 03/12/2015 10:21 pm »
This would be capable of more payload than Cygnus. The per-launch spacecraft cost could also be significantly lower since the tug is reusable (without refurbishment other than refueling).

Super excited about this proposal.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline GWH

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #516 on: 03/12/2015 10:26 pm »
More info up on the Lockmart site:
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/ssc/crs2.html
Even a little animation :)

Offline Galactic Penguin SST

Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #517 on: 03/12/2015 10:32 pm »
Isn't that essentially an "LM robotic arm-included Parom"? Funny that Russian concept ended up as a CRS-2 bid......  ;)
Astronomy & spaceflight geek penguin. In a relationship w/ Space Shuttle Discovery. Current Priority: Chasing the Chinese Spaceflight Wonder Egg & A Certain Chinese Mars Rover

Online Chris Bergin

Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #518 on: 03/12/2015 10:33 pm »


Sierra Nevada Corporation to Debut Dream Chaserģ Cargo System
Company Unveils New Design for Uncrewed Missions

 

WHAT:
Sierra Nevada Corporationís (SNC) Space Systems will host a press conference at the Satellite 2015 Conference to debut its Dream Chaser Cargo System, SNCís solution for NASAís Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) contract.  Media will have the opportunity to speak with SNCís Space Systems executive Mark Sirangelo and participate in a Q-and-A session following the conference.

WHEN:
Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 3:00 p.m. EDT

WHERE:
Walter E. Washington Convention Center, Salon D.
Media can request telecon service via RSVP.

WHO:

    Mark N. Sirangelo, corporate vice president, SNCís Space Systems
    Steve Lindsey, senior director and co-program manager, SNCís Space Systems Space Exploration Systems

WHY:
SNCís Dream Chaser spacecraft is a multi-mission-capable space utility vehicle (SUV) suitable for crewed or uncrewed missions. The Dream Chaser Cargo System is an uncrewed system developed to provide cargo transportation services to the International Space Station (ISS). The Dream Chaser Cargo System utilizes a mission variant of the Dream Chaser crewed spacecraft that meets or exceeds all of NASAís goals for cargo transportation to the ISS, including rapid return of critical science.
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Offline Oberon_Command

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Re: ISS Commercial Resupply Services 2 (CRS2) 2017-2024
« Reply #519 on: 03/12/2015 10:33 pm »
If anything, this system is less flexible than a disposable vehicle like Cygnus because of the way it appears to use the centaur upper stage to deorbit the old cargo module.

I can picture a couple ways the orbital handoff works, and neither of them make much sense.

What did you have in mind? Just from looking at the picture, here's what I was envisioning, that would only require one arm:

1) Jupiter rendezvouses with the new pod and upper stage, grappling the Centaur (NOT the new pod) with its arm, as depicted in the picture.
2) The Centaur jettisons the new pod.
3) Jupiter uses its arm to position itself and the old pod on the Centaur, attaching the old pod to the centaur in the process.
4) Jupiter undocks from the old pod, which stays with the Centaur.
5) Jupiter chases after the new pod, grapples and berths it with itself, then proceeds to station, while the Centaur with the old pod deorbits.

Tags:
 

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