Author Topic: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings  (Read 344475 times)

Offline ulm_atms

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #420 on: 02/13/2022 02:57 pm »
So what is SpaceX supposed to do?

Unfortunately the SpaceNews article is less accurate in reflecting the actual content of the filing, it's better to read it yourself instead: https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=14584341

NASA did provide recommendations on what they think SpaceX should do, mostly doing some simulation and analysis, also requested some information so that NASA can do their simulation and analysis.

Overall I think NASA and NSF are fairly cordial and are not out to stop this (unlike SpaceX's competitors). I think this letter is more of a reminder to SpaceX that they need to continue to cooperate with NASA and NSF on this matter (as the letter stated, SpaceX is already cooperating with them).

Yes, that link has way more info.  Thank you!

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #421 on: 02/14/2022 12:49 am »
Do we have ANY information on the size, mass, power of the Starlink gen2 satellites?
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline su27k

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #422 on: 02/14/2022 02:05 am »
Do we have ANY information on the size, mass, power of the Starlink gen2 satellites?

No, none of that information is included in the official filings.

Offline su27k

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #423 on: 02/14/2022 02:09 am »
New Bipartisan E&C Draft Legislation Will Secure American Leadership in Satellite Communications

Quote
Washington, D.C. — House Energy and Commerce Committee Republican Leader Cathy McMorris Rodgers (R-WA) and Committee Chairman Frank Pallone, Jr. (D-NJ) issued the following statement on new bipartisan draft legislation seeking to promote competition, innovation, national security, the interests of consumers, and American leadership in the thriving commercial satellite communications industry. 

The discussion drafts work toward modernizing the Federal Communications Commission’s (FCC) satellite licensing rules and authorities under the Communications Act, with the goal of promoting responsible space management, incentivizing investment and innovation, and advancing U.S. leadership in next-generation, satellite communications networks. With these discussion drafts, Republicans and Democrats are beginning a robust process on these crucial objectives and seeking feedback from all interested stakeholders.

“American companies are at the forefront of developing and deploying broadband and other advanced communications services using satellite technologies, which is revolutionizing the communications marketplace as we know it. As leaders of the Energy and Commerce Committee, we must streamline our regulatory processes to usher in a new era of American innovation and investment in this growing sector, particularly as our economic competitors like China race to dominate this industry, and must ensure our laws and regulations fully protect the public. We are pleased to be working together on these discussion drafts as they are an important step towards developing a bipartisan solution, and we encourage all interested parties to engage with our staffs on these concepts as we fully evaluate these proposals.” Cathy McMorris Rodgers and Frank Pallone, Jr.

CLICK HERE to read the Satellite And Telecommunications Streamlining Act discussion draft bill.

CLICK HERE to read the Secure Space Act discussion draft bill. 


I'm not familiar enough with FCC rules to determine how the changes will impact Starlink, seems the first bill is trying to streamline LEO constellation approval? 2nd bill seems to prohibit FCC from permitting constellations from countries like China.
« Last Edit: 02/14/2022 02:10 am by su27k »

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #424 on: 02/14/2022 04:17 pm »
On February 8, there was a flurry of petitions and comments on the Starlink Gen2 system.  Apparently, that was the deadline for everybody to get these in.  Viasat in particular had a huge filing.  Orbcomm, RS Access, the Balance Group, Dish, Kuiper, and SES/O3B also submitted Petitions to Deny or comments.
« Last Edit: 02/14/2022 04:22 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline vsatman

Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #425 on: 02/14/2022 07:53 pm »
Do we have ANY information on the size, mass, power of the Starlink gen2 satellites?

Reading the application in the FSS Annex S shows that the feeder link in Gen2  will use the E band (4 channels at 5 GHz). Also, for the Ka band, 8 channels are shown each at 1.6 GHz and 8 channels at 0.5 GHz at the same frequencies. That is, in the sum of the feeder link in Generation 2 will be at 36.8 GHz, compared to 4 GHz in Generation 1. To transmit 10 times more information from the satellite to Earth to the user terminals, it will be necessary to increase the area / size of the FAR antennas by 5-8 times  and the  power of their transmitter, (it should be taken into account that the orbit of Generation 2 is slightly lower than Generation 1), as well as to increase the size of ​​​​solar panels and batteries and the thermoregulation system accordingly. Very roughly I would expect 50..60% more satellite weight for an additional 100% bandwidth.

Offline su27k

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #426 on: 02/15/2022 03:17 am »
Bipartisan legislation seeks to reform FCC satellite licensing rules

Quote from: SpaceNews
The top Democrat and Republican on the House Energy and Commerce Committee announced a bipartisan effort Feb. 11 to update satellite licensing rules for the rapidly changing space industry.

House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Frank Pallone, Jr. (D-N.J.) and the ranking member, Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers (R-Wash.), released drafts of two bills they say will better equip the Federal Communications Commission for regulating a surge of non-geostationary orbit (NGSO) satellites.

They said the draft bills — the Satellite and Telecommunications Streamlining Act and Secure Space Act — mark the first step toward an overhaul of the regulator’s satellite licensing rules and authorities.

Offline launchwatcher

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #427 on: 02/15/2022 02:15 pm »
...  because ISLs exist, the amount of earth to satellite for a single satellite does not have to equal the satellite to earth in general. In fact since Starlink is intended to be capable of pure in network routing from one user to another with ISLs, even for the entire constellation, the amount of data from gateways to satellites does not have to equal the amount of data from satellites to users.
Indeed.   Though there will be some interesting challenges determining the right balance of uplink, downlink and ISL capacity to avoid wasting mass & power on underutilized capacity.   They can run simulations but real customers are the real test..   And the balance will probably shift over time as they make increasing use of the ISL's.

Offline dglow

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #428 on: 02/15/2022 03:14 pm »
On February 8, there was a flurry of petitions and comments on the Starlink Gen2 system.  Apparently, that was the deadline for everybody to get these in.  Viasat in particular had a huge filing.  Orbcomm, RS Access, the Balance Group, Dish, Kuiper, and SES/O3B also submitted Petitions to Deny or comments.

Thank you.

More of this, less of SpaceCadet vs. vsatman, please.

Offline SpaceCadet1980

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #429 on: 02/15/2022 07:28 pm »
Do we have ANY information on the size, mass, power of the Starlink gen2 satellites?

Reading the application in the FSS Annex S shows that the feeder link in Gen2  will use the E band (4 channels at 5 GHz). Also, for the Ka band, 8 channels are shown each at 1.6 GHz and 8 channels at 0.5 GHz at the same frequencies. That is, in the sum of the feeder link in Generation 2 will be at 36.8 GHz, compared to 4 GHz in Generation 1. To transmit 10 times more information from the satellite to Earth to the user terminals, it will be necessary to increase the area / size of the FAR antennas by 5-8 times  and the  power of their transmitter, (it should be taken into account that the orbit of Generation 2 is slightly lower than Generation 1), as well as to increase the size of ​​​​solar panels and batteries and the thermoregulation system accordingly. Very roughly I would expect 50..60% more satellite weight for an additional 100% bandwidth.
It seems most of the back and forth was removed (which is fine, vsatman's posts contain misinformation, and my replies are unnecessary if the bad information from vsatman is removed), but for some reason this post containing incorrect assertions that antenna area needs to be increased to increase the number of simultaneous beams was not removed. Despite this being an extension of the misinformation about user beams that got another thread locked.

The short answer to the original question is no, we can only make wild guesses on mass, power, etc. at this point unless someone has information I have not seen.

Offline gongora

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #430 on: 02/18/2022 10:34 pm »
permit request for expanded testing of in-flight terminals (still only 5 at a time, but on various aircraft)
0190-EX-CN-2022

Offline vsatman

Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #431 on: 02/19/2022 09:41 pm »
permit request for expanded testing of in-flight terminals (still only 5 at a time, but on various aircraft)
0190-EX-CN-2022
Thanks!  Very interesting - this is the first time I see a mention of the protocol used in StarLink:
//In addition, pursuant to Section 25.115(i), SpaceX Services hereby certifies that it is planning to use a
contention protocol (TDMA/FDMA)
, and such protocol usage will be reasonable.

Offline gongora

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #432 on: 02/20/2022 10:52 pm »
0332-EX-ST-2022

High performance terminal testing

Offline su27k

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #433 on: 02/27/2022 09:09 am »
On February 8, there was a flurry of petitions and comments on the Starlink Gen2 system.  Apparently, that was the deadline for everybody to get these in.  Viasat in particular had a huge filing.  Orbcomm, RS Access, the Balance Group, Dish, Kuiper, and SES/O3B also submitted Petitions to Deny or comments.

SpaceX posted a long consolidated reply to all the oppositions and comments with a longer attachment:

https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=14786541
https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=14786542

Offline su27k

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #434 on: 02/27/2022 01:25 pm »
SpaceX posted a long consolidated reply to all the oppositions and comments with a longer attachment:

https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=14786541
https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=14786542

One interesting thing from the reply is that SpaceX refuses to disclose the size, mass, and other characteristics of Gen2 satellite. Another interesting thing is this:

Quote
SpaceX materials engineers have developed and qualified new coatings specifically designed to mitigate diffuse reflectance (brightness). SpaceX continues to work with leading experts in reflectance characterization as well as industry partners with experience in optical signature characterization and thermal control coatings dating back to the Apollo era, and is engaging in co-development projects with companies that have unique manufacturing capability that can help implement resulting advances.


They also refuted some misconceptions about automated collision avoidance system that were unfortunately spread by a prominent astronomer/spaceflight observer online:

Quote
Viasat claims that SpaceX’s autonomous collision avoidance system “does not incorporate any check to ensure that a planned maneuver to avoid one potential collision does not create an unacceptable risk of collision with other space objects.”20 To the contrary, the system pre-screens any planned trajectory against all known secondary conjunctions to ensure that a planned maneuver to avoid one object will not introduce a new risk with another.

Quote
Viasat also criticizes SpaceX’s system for failing to build in the capability to coordinate effectively with other satellite operators in near real-time to avoid having both operators take maneuvers that lead to a collision.21 SpaceX’s system assumes maneuver responsibility for conjunction events by default. In the rare cases where the other operator would prefer to handle the maneuver, SpaceX will prevent the Gen2 satellite from planning a maneuver for that conjunction. Indeed, for certain maneuverable satellites with which it has frequent interactions, SpaceX has worked with the other operators to establish a baseline approach to handling conjunctions that largely eliminates the need for additional oversight for such events.
« Last Edit: 02/27/2022 01:25 pm by su27k »

Offline su27k

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #435 on: 04/06/2022 02:12 am »
New report to FCC about 3 Starlink satellites failed at operational orbit: https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=15313330

Offline gongora

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #436 on: 05/06/2022 02:04 pm »
SpaceX applied for another bunch of ground stations in the US during the second half of April.  Current list of cities can be found in the top post of the Starlink Index Thread.

Looks like Ka-band ground station filings in the U.S. went from about 66 to 93.
« Last Edit: 05/06/2022 02:04 pm by gongora »

Offline Cheapchips

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #437 on: 05/08/2022 07:31 am »
New report to FCC about 3 Starlink satellites failed at operational orbit: https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=15313330

This is only a two page document, for those waiting on a summary. Two suspected flight computer failures and one suspected power systems failure.  Remedial action for all three are listed as 'Sensitive components have been identified and removed from future designs'.

Offline mlindner

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #438 on: 05/18/2022 04:39 am »
The Gen 2 application has been pending for a very long time. Does anyone know what kind of timeline is required for this application to be approved or denied? I assume they legally can't just delay it forever.
LEO is the ocean, not an island (let alone a continent). We create cruise liners to ride the oceans, not artificial islands in the middle of them. We need a physical place, which has physical resources, to make our future out there.

Offline su27k

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #439 on: 05/18/2022 12:18 pm »
The Gen 2 application has been pending for a very long time. Does anyone know what kind of timeline is required for this application to be approved or denied? I assume they legally can't just delay it forever.

I believe the informal timeline is "within 180 days of the public notice accepting the applications", I think the Gen2 application was accepted for filing on Dec 23, 2021, so it would reach 180 days in about a month.

The filings on this application seem to have slowed significantly, there were tons of objections and comments in Jan, Feb and March, but nowadays nobody except Viasat is still trying.

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