There are a few topics that we could talk about here but one that comes to my mind is stuff like KENNEN. I came across the attached lists of docs and on the MDR list it has "The KENNEN Story". I have never seen it but it was mentioned in earlier threads. For this example the case number is EOM-2020-00027 from 09/15/2020 and status "NRL". While I assume that "GIP" means "Granted in Part" and "GIF" "Granted in Full" I am not sure what NRL means. "Not released ??" on still in process I guess.
The point is, NRO and others keep releasing documents and given the size of these lists there might be interesting info out there that we missed so far.
There's a ton of EOI material released several years ago and people have barely scratched the surface going through that.
Quote from: leovinus on 12/01/2025 12:04 pmThere are a few topics that we could talk about here but one that comes to my mind is stuff like KENNEN. I came across the attached lists of docs and on the MDR list it has "The KENNEN Story". I have never seen it but it was mentioned in earlier threads. For this example the case number is EOM-2020-00027 from 09/15/2020 and status "NRL". While I assume that "GIP" means "Granted in Part" and "GIF" "Granted in Full" I am not sure what NRL means. "Not released ??" on still in process I guess. The one I think of as "The KENNEN story" is the doc described by hoku here https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29545.msg2293574#msg2293574
Yeah. much is supposed to be at https://www.nro.gov/FOIA/Major-NRO-Programs-and-Projects/EOI-Documents/but that gives me an error. However, the whole list is athttps://web.archive.org/web/20221205042824/http://www.nro.gov/FOIA/Major-NRO-Programs-and-Projects/EOI-Documents/<snip>
I think it is worth distinguishing the types of topics: military, civilian, commercial, non-US, etc.Asif and I had a discussion about this in general over four years ago:https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4153/1I'll add some more comments later.
Quote from: Blackstar on 12/01/2025 05:11 pmI think it is worth distinguishing the types of topics: military, civilian, commercial, non-US, etc.Asif and I had a discussion about this in general over four years ago:https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4153/1I'll add some more comments later.Somehow I missed this back in 2021 but it is a fascinating list and chat. If you want my nerdy input then I’d love to study in Seattle for a month in the Boeing/Douglas archives. They have many of the early 60s technical reports and documents but access is difficult to organize. Next week, related to a recent article, I’ll study for a week in an European archive and I am curious what that will turn up.
Ruminating some more:Civil Space HistoryThe biggest one really is a history of Dan Goldin as NASA administrator. He had a major impact upon the agency, with effects still being felt today.A history of Project Surveyor. I know I've harped on this before, and it may no longer be possible to write anything detailed. But we have Ranger and Lunar Orbiter histories, but not Surveyor. And as I exposed a year or so ago with my Surveyor sample return and rovers article, there's more that has not been explored.US Military Space HistoryThe procurement mess of the 2000s-2010s. What the heck happened that resulted in so many programs going so badly? SBIRS and NPOESS are the biggest examples.Commercial Space HistoryA deep dive into the history of US commercial spaceflight history. Stop before SpaceX. Go into things like the contractors for NASA and DoD programs, the decision to shut down ELV production and put all payloads on shuttle, the reversal of that decision after Challenger, unusual arrangements like Leasat, etc.[...]I'm sure I can think of more.
Non-US Military Space HistoryThe French reconnaissance satellite program.
Ruminating some more:Civil Space HistoryThe biggest one really is a history of Dan Goldin as NASA administrator. He had a major impact upon the agency, with effects still being felt today.A history of Project Surveyor. I know I've harped on this before, and it may no longer be possible to write anything detailed. But we have Ranger and Lunar Orbiter histories, but not Surveyor. And as I exposed a year or so ago with my Surveyor sample return and rovers article, there's more that has not been explored.US Military Space HistoryThe procurement mess of the 2000s-2010s. What the heck happened that resulted in so many programs going so badly? SBIRS and NPOESS are the biggest examples.Commercial Space HistoryA deep dive into the history of US commercial spaceflight history. Stop before SpaceX. Go into things like the contractors for NASA and DoD programs, the decision to shut down ELV production and put all payloads on shuttle, the reversal of that decision after Challenger, unusual arrangements like Leasat, etc.Non-US Military Space HistoryThe French reconnaissance satellite program. I'm sure I can think of more.
VelaI only found some videosWe have more data on early NRO programs than AF
There is probably a load of early US nuclear space projects that have not been examined well. Anything nuclear received a high classification at the time. I am thinking roughly 1955 to 1965 and related to General Atomics, Los Alamos, NERVA, DUMBO, Project Orion, pulse fission for space application, etc.
Quote from: leovinus on 12/05/2025 02:20 pmThere is probably a load of early US nuclear space projects that have not been examined well. Anything nuclear received a high classification at the time. I am thinking roughly 1955 to 1965 and related to General Atomics, Los Alamos, NERVA, DUMBO, Project Orion, pulse fission for space application, etc. I think that is probably true. There have been books about NERVA and Orion, but I would guess that much of the actual documents about those programs remain classified.I also don't think anybody has really done a comprehensive history of space nuclear power. The different SNAP RTG and reactor programs, for example. Back around 2012 I got to visit the NASA Plum Brook facility as part of a study I was running and as they were driving us around our guide pointed to a low concrete dome and said that it was one of the old SNAP-8 reactor facilities that was being dismantled. Huh? What the heck is SNAP-8?! I thought. Later I tried doing some research and found very little about SNAP-8. And yet there were at least two reactor facilities at Plum Brook that had done SNAP-8 tests in the 1960s. You will find almost nothing in space history books, and documents were hard to find, but they were smashing neutrons back in the 1960s.
Listing of reports categorized as restricted/limited distribution/classified dated 1980 or older from the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) Technical Report database, 2017
For example, I was interested in "Aspen: An Aerospace Plane with Nuclear Engines.", contract W-7405-ENG-36NTIS Issue Number 197610 , at https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults/titleDetail/LA2590.xhtmland it said "For abstract, see NSA 33 04, number 08742." which I cannot find. To clear, I found the PDF and report but the whole number mapping between LA2590 to LA-2590 to a file 0038486.pdf and NSA 33 04, number 08742 is a bit mysterious (in case anyone knows how that works for followup research )
Guide to Air Force Historical Literature 1943-1983 , Jacob Neufeld Kenneth Schaffel Anne E. ShermerThe Guide to Air Force Historical Literature, 1943-1983, is a compre- hensive listing of histories, monographs, chronologies, and special studies issued by the Office of Air Force History and historical offices throughout the Air Force. It excludes the periodic (monthly, quarterly, semi-annual, annual) com- mand and unit histories. The primary purpose of the Guide is to bring together all of the writings of the Air Force History Program in one convenient bibliog- raphy.
SNAP-8 is an example of what I'll call "glitch history," where it was real, people worked on it, money was spent, but somehow due to a glitch in the space-time continuum, it has been completely forgotten. Another example, which I have written about, is the M-1 rocket engine. Look through space histories and rocket histories and you may find a paragraph about the M-1 at most. I had never heard about it. And then over a decade ago I was in the NASA history archives looking at their file on the F-1 engine and I found this thick set of files on the M-1. My first thought was that they had been mislabeled. And then I looked at them and discovered that not only was the M-1 a real program, but that a bunch of very large test stands had been built to test it, and turbopump tests had been conducted. It was canceled before it went to full-scale testing.Like SNAP-8, I had no idea...Now the reason for the glitch is that it never flew, so you could argue that it was not important. But I don't think that's the way to look at historical projects. First of all, did it have impacts on other programs that did fly? Or other impacts in general? Second, understanding why projects fail can be valuable.
There is an official Vela history, right?
Okay, so the thread title refers to "new data" that has not yet been examined. But I think we could parse that out a bit.
(Just to be clear, by "data" we're referring to historical records, for the most part.)-new data (as in newly declassified records, archives, or records)-old data that has been around but nobody has really done anything about it-subjects that should be explored and can be explored, but have not been-newly emerging/available subjects and dataOn the last point, the NRO and the shuttle is one that I think is ripening, but slowly. Jim David and Parker Temple did books that deal with this subject and since their publication, more information has emerged. I've written about that with my articles on DAMON and more recently FARRAH and PARCAE. But there is still a lot more to explore on that matter. Not only the payloads, which remain classified, but internal NRO deliberations about how much they wanted to use the shuttle and for what. We now have an emerging picture of the payload choices by NRO (putting FARRAH and PARCAE on shuttle, then pulling FARRAH off). But we don't have any good insights into whether NRO in the early 1980s considered using shuttle for satellite servicing and/or recovery. It would be great to know more about that.
Quote from: Blackstar on 12/05/2025 01:39 pmOkay, so the thread title refers to "new data" that has not yet been examined. But I think we could parse that out a bit. My draft title for the thread was "So, Blackstar, what do you think we should be working on then ... ;-)" so I am very happy to have it parsed further by you, and indeed anyone else. I like those subthreads.
Quote from: LittleBird on 12/06/2025 11:14 amQuote from: Blackstar on 12/05/2025 01:39 pmOkay, so the thread title refers to "new data" that has not yet been examined. But I think we could parse that out a bit. My draft title for the thread was "So, Blackstar, what do you think we should be working on then ... ;-)" so I am very happy to have it parsed further by you, and indeed anyone else. I like those subthreads. But I only represent one corner of the space history field. The historians who focus on cultural and social history will have their own lists of what is important.My own biases: I tend to be focused on intelligence space programs, military space programs, and civil space programs (probably in that order). I tend to be interested in space science programs more than human spaceflight programs. And my interest is American programs, not non-American programs. I also am document/archives oriented.
There are historians interested in the cultural impact of spaceflight, the way different social, racial and ethnic groups view and participate in spaceflight and space exploration. And of course there are those who focus on non-American programs, like Russia. We have some history of India's space program, and only a superficial understanding of China's space program. But there are also the social and cultural aspects of those programs as well. Americans tend to view and talk about spaceflight in a certain way, but other cultures will view and talk about it in a different way.
a websitehttps://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forums/aviation-space.7/Aviation and Space discussions on historic program
