MOLAB and other rover concepts from apollo era (also, looking for northrop one)

[jcalvert]

So, for last few weeks i have been binging NTRS looking for concept moon rovers, especially the pressurised ones, and i have realised one thing - while we have  decent amount of  information on Boeing one:
pdf link:
http://libarchstor2.uah.edu/digitalcollections/items/show/2314





Or about bendix concepts:
https://repository.hou.usra.edu/items/b16889c7-f41e-46f5-bcfc-278dd4b4a515/full

 



However, i was unable to find any proper plans for the OG northrop MOLAB proposal.
The best i was able to find is simplified isometric sketch  and bunch of even simpler schematics related to its mobility:


This is despite the northrop concept being featured pretty prominently on concept art, and having full scale mockup built for training.




So i guess this is the best place to ask - does anyone here knows about existence of proper  (or at least proper-ish)  3-way schematics of the northrop  wonderful steam boiler ?

Also since i was not able to find a dedicated thread about the subiect, i guess this will be a good place to share anything and everything related to moon manned surface mobility .   I shall be dropping more links and pictures as time allows.

[leovinus]

There was a previous, short lived thread here Many broken links but maybe you like the MOLAB images at
https://library.usgs.gov/photo/#/?terms=MOLAB
which seems to be by General Motors for NASA from 1966+.

The 347 page text at https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1190/

The U.S. Geological Survey, Branch of
Astrogeology—A Chronology of Activities from
Conception through the End of Project Apollo (1960-
1973)
By Gerald G. Schaber*

has more on MOLAB as well.

Sadly, I have no good pointers to the Northrop design. May we ask which report your schematics came from which might give a hint to finding more?

[leovinus]

So i guess this is the best place to ask - does anyone here knows about existence of proper  (or at least proper-ish)  3-way schematics of the northrop  wonderful steam boiler ?

Maybe we can find a bit more on Northrop MOLAB if we go via old bibliographies.  Attached is

MANNED EXPLORATION, COLONIZATION AND EXPLOITATION OF THE LUNAR SURFACE: A SELECTIVE BIBLIOGRAPHY, L. R. Magnolia, 10 October 1966

which contains

Northrop Space Labs., Huntsville, Ala.
APOLLO LOGISTICS SUPPORT SYSTEMS MOLAB STUDIES: TASK REPORT ON MOLAB
CONCEPT EVALUATION METHODS, 8 JUNE-21 AUGUST 1964, by D. Ross, NASA-
CR-61021, 1964, NASA N65-12022, (CFSTI $ 2.00), 47 pp.

which gets us to
https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults/titleDetail/N6512022.xhtml
where we find the Northrop contract number  NAS8-11096

Plugging that into NTRS gives
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search?fundingNumber=NAS8-11096
and about ten or so Molab reports by Northrop. One attached  with some schematics but there are probably more.

[Blackstar]

I briefly mentioned MOLAB here. Does not answer your questions, unfortunately:

https://thespacereview.com/article/4931/1

[leovinus]

The movie at
https://archive.org/details/SugWHDFJnwubu4qvIY6CY6wnOqTf7H
might be of interest. The description includes

The mock-up shown is an early version of the MOLAB, which was initially developed by Northrop beginning in 1963 as an Apollo Logistics Support System. (MOLAB was also known as the "MGL" for "Mobile Geological Laboratory"). This vehicle concept evolved from the study contract NAS8-11096.

and the attached screenshot bears similarity with your images of the Northrop MOLAB concept.

EDIT: I see the last image in your post #1 is probably from the same movie

[jcalvert]

Here's another interesting and as far as i know mostly unknown project i stumbled upon . Its supposed to be from Boeing study from early 1990s .


Apparently it can land on surface on its own. ( i'd imagine it was supposed to be deorbited and slowed down by sperarate stage, and the thrusters on its body would only be used in the very last part of landing. )

The picture is taken from "Shielding Strategies for Human Space Exploration":
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19980137598/downloads/19980137598.pdf

Unfortunately, the document is about wholy other subject, and this rover only gets a passing mention.  The only source given inside the document is 
"Brand Norman Griffin: Pressurized Rovers, Essential for Effective Planetary Exploration, AIAA Paper
# 93-4178, AIAA Space Programs and Technologies Conference, September 1993."
And this one is not publicly avaiable as far as i know, so its a dead end for me.   Any more info would of course be appreciated.

So i actually have no idea from which study the picture really comes from or are there any more details about the thing.    Only boeing rover from the 90s i knew about before was tcompletely different one - that weird "daytime rover" with sideawys cylinder cabin and wheels on spindly legs .

[leovinus]

MOLAB Northrop images (and no link to source material )
https://e05.code.blog/2022/02/10/molab-mockup-scale-models/

[leovinus]

Unfortunately, the document is about wholy other subject, and this rover only gets a passing mention.  The only source given inside the document is 
"Brand Norman Griffin: Pressurized Rovers, Essential for Effective Planetary Exploration, AIAA Paper
# 93-4178, AIAA Space Programs and Technologies Conference, September 1993."
And this one is not publicly avaiable as far as i know, so its a dead end for me.   Any more info would of course be appreciated.

When we look at that conference and table of content at
https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/book/10.2514/MSPACE93
then you see in the screenshot that that paper number 1993-4178 is missing. Maybe it was submitted but not published? You could send a friendly message and ask AIAA at [email protected]
They were very helpful with one of my questions.

[spacenut]

Most of the rovers designed today will probably be electric/battery with solar charging or a solar charging station near the lander.  This should last longer than the fuel cell driven hydrolox version of the past.  You will eventually run out of liquid hydrogen and oxygen. 

[Proponent]

I'm sure the output of the rovers' fuel cells -- water -- would have been retained for electrolysis back to hydrogen and lox.

[Blackstar]

Does anybody know of any studies done about landing these large vehicles on the Moon? I don't remember seeing anything that specifically focused on it. I do remember seeing some lunar cargo lander study, and I have that somewhere if I can figure out how to search.

[Jim]

Does anybody know of any studies done about landing these large vehicles on the Moon? I don't remember seeing anything that specifically focused on it. I do remember seeing some lunar cargo lander study, and I have that somewhere if I can figure out how to search.

LM Truck

https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/static/history/alsj/LM23_LM_Derivatives_LMD1-13.pdf

[leovinus]

Does anybody know of any studies done about landing these large vehicles on the Moon? I don't remember seeing anything that specifically focused on it. I do remember seeing some lunar cargo lander study, and I have that somewhere if I can figure out how to search.

There was mention of a  "no return" LEM with a larger payload 2500 to 3500 lb to ferry MOLAB et al.

[Blackstar]

Does anybody know of any studies done about landing these large vehicles on the Moon? I don't remember seeing anything that specifically focused on it. I do remember seeing some lunar cargo lander study, and I have that somewhere if I can figure out how to search.

LM Truck

https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/static/history/alsj/LM23_LM_Derivatives_LMD1-13.pdf

Thanks. I have written about that. However, I did not think the LM Truck was big enough for the MOLAB.

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4503/1

[Jim]

Does anybody know of any studies done about landing these large vehicles on the Moon? I don't remember seeing anything that specifically focused on it. I do remember seeing some lunar cargo lander study, and I have that somewhere if I can figure out how to search.

LM Truck

https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/static/history/alsj/LM23_LM_Derivatives_LMD1-13.pdf

Thanks. I have written about that. However, I did not think the LM Truck was big enough for the MOLAB.

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4503/1

http://www.astronautix.com/m/molab.html

[spacenut]

Haven't thought about the fuel cells making water as a by-product.  It could be used for drinking etc.  What is left could by a small solar facility be made back into liquid hydrogen and oxygen.  Maybe more cost effective than an electric vehicle with solar panels for recharging.  Hopefully someone will do some studies on this.  The moon doesn't have much water. 

[leovinus]

Does anybody know of any studies done about landing these large vehicles on the Moon? I don't remember seeing anything that specifically focused on it. I do remember seeing some lunar cargo lander study, and I have that somewhere if I can figure out how to search.

LM Truck

https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/static/history/alsj/LM23_LM_Derivatives_LMD1-13.pdf

Thanks. I have written about that. However, I did not think the LM Truck was big enough for the MOLAB.

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4503/1

From "Apollo The lost and forgotten missions", David J. Shayler, p207, mentions a max "if everything works out" payload of "2,100 cubic feet and up to 10,300 lbs". Then we loop back to the Northrop project NAS 8-11096 and NTRS 19650003619 N65-13220 "APOLLO EXPERIMENTS SUPPORT On PRELIMINARY ESTIMATE OF DEVELOPMENT COSTS AND SCHEDULE FOR MOLAB" which has a weight estimate of 6500-7000 lbs for the Northrop Molab, see screenshot. Therefore, in theory, a large LM truck could deliver a Molab version.

[Blackstar]

I need some help. In the early 1970s a contractor (probably Rockwell?) did a study of a large lunar cargo lander. It was a tall cylinder with landing legs. The produced artwork, including astronauts lowering cargo to the surface from the top via cables.

I have the study(ies) on a hard drive somewhere. Probably downloaded off NTRS. But I am not having luck searching for them. The timeframe was around 1971, and I know that Rockwell did a lunar base study at that time. But after searching my computers and doing a bunch of internet searches, I'm coming up empty. Anybody remember this? Can you provide a name of the contractor and study?

[leovinus]

I need some help. In the early 1970s a contractor (probably Rockwell?) did a study of a large lunar cargo lander. It was a tall cylinder with landing legs. The produced artwork, including astronauts lowering cargo to the surface from the top via cables.

I have the study(ies) on a hard drive somewhere. Probably downloaded off NTRS. But I am not having luck searching for them. The timeframe was around 1971, and I know that Rockwell did a lunar base study at that time. But after searching my computers and doing a bunch of internet searches, I'm coming up empty. Anybody remember this? Can you provide a name of the contractor and study?

Do you mean the "Lunar Base Synthesis Study" by Rockwell ? NAS 8-26145, and four reports on NTRS or archive.org. The Douglas LASS was "large and standing" but not by Rockwell.

J.M. Mansfield.T.L Dolan. R.B.Carpenter,Jr.,and R.G Johns,Jr., "Lunar Base Synthesis Study - Final Report". NAS 8-26145, SD 71-477-1, North American Rockwell Corp., Downey. C.A.. 1971.

19710016381 ,Lunar base synthesis study. Volume 1 - Executive study Final report, "1971-05-15", archive.org
19710016382 ,Lunar base synthesis study. Volume 2 - Mission analysis and lunar base synthesis Final report, "1971-05-15", archive.org
19710016384 ,Lunar base synthesis study. Volume 3 - Shelter design Final report, "1971-05-15", archive.org
19710016386 ,Lunar base synthesis study. Volume 4 - Cost and resource estimates Final report, "1971-05-15", archive.org

I do not remember the artwork you describes but it is long ago since I looked into those four reports,

[Blackstar]

I'm interested in the lander. I don't know if the lander was associated with the base. But I know somebody did a study of the lander, which was a tall cylinder.

[StraumliBlight]

I'm interested in the lander. I don't know if the lander was associated with the base. But I know somebody did a study of the lander, which was a tall cylinder.

What about the 1971 Boeing Space Tug lander, previously referenced in your article?

[leovinus]

I'm interested in the lander. I don't know if the lander was associated with the base. But I know somebody did a study of the lander, which was a tall cylinder.

What about the 1971 Boeing Space Tug lander, previously referenced in your article?

We even discussed that image here in the Moonbase thread
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=55159.msg2500168#msg2500168
That image is also at
https://archive.org/details/HSF-photo-s76_24320
and not too dissimilar from the construction image in the Lunar Base Synthesis Study (attached)
EDIT: Modified the archive.org link

[Jim]

I'm interested in the lander. I don't know if the lander was associated with the base. But I know somebody did a study of the lander, which was a tall cylinder.

Was it sort of plain?

[Blackstar]

I'm interested in the lander. I don't know if the lander was associated with the base. But I know somebody did a study of the lander, which was a tall cylinder.

What about the 1971 Boeing Space Tug lander, previously referenced in your article?

That's it. Now I need to find the study. I tried searching for "Boeing lunar lander," but I'll include the tug in my search. I know that I have the pdf(s) somewhere.

[StraumliBlight]

That's it. Now I need to find the study. I tried searching for "Boeing lunar lander," but I'll include the tug in my search. I know that I have the pdf(s) somewhere.

NTRS: Future Space Transportation Systems Analysis Study [May 9, 1975]

EDIT: Also multiple "Independent Lunar Surface Sortie" (ILSS) references and images in Future Space Transportation Systems Systems Analysis Study, Phase 1 Technical Report (Boeing) [Dec 19, 1975]

[Blackstar]

Thanks. That is adjacent to it. But I'm pretty sure that I have a study focused solely on the lander. I'll keep looking for it.

[Blackstar]

Still searching. Found this:

https://e05.code.blog/tag/a-compendium-of-future-space-activities/

Still searching for the study. I know there is other artwork as well.

Computer search engines are not the most helpful things.

[Blackstar]

By the way, this is another volume from a study posted above. This volume is the habitat section and is lengthy.

[StraumliBlight]

Still searching. Found this:

https://e05.code.blog/tag/a-compendium-of-future-space-activities/

Still searching for the study. I know there is other artwork as well.

Computer search engines are not the most helpful things.

There's a black and white version of that painting in the 2nd document I posted above, which refers to it as the "Orbiting Lunar Station (8 man)".

[Blackstar]

Yeah, there seem to have been several names, including "Lunar Transport Vehicle." (A google search using Boeing and that term gave me the Apollo lunar rover, and when I restricted the search it gave me nothing useful.)

The thing is probably on my work hard drive, but multiple search efforts have failed. I might have printed a copy, but my office is as messy as my brain.

[leovinus]

Still searching. Found this:

https://e05.code.blog/tag/a-compendium-of-future-space-activities/

Still searching for the study. I know there is other artwork as well.

Computer search engines are not the most helpful things.

Regarding artwork, here are a few pointers. Firstly, the lander image S76-24320 is also at
https://nasaimages.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/detail/nasaNAS~16~16~117096~223816
as part of the JSC NASA Human Spaceflight Collection. In addition, it is also part of the this Flickr collection
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasa2explore/albums/72157635081296147/with/9515801767
titled "Exploration - Lunar by NASA Johnson" Lots of great artwork. When you search that page for  S76-24320 you'll see it is there. There might be other lander images.

Secondly, the lander image description says "The picture appeared in a September 1977 publication from the NASA-JSC Program Planning Office entitled A Compendium of Future Space Activities." A document with that title is mentioned in a JSC document index . where it says "Doc ID 11532  A Compendium of Future Space Activities (Rev C)  10-28-79 ". The JSC document id should be helpful to find more.

Finally, lander image S76-24320 is actually Boeing artwork, right? It says so on the bottom left. So how does Boeing artwork get into a JSC artwork collection? Puzzling.
 

[leovinus]

Thanks. That is adjacent to it. But I'm pretty sure that I have a study focused solely on the lander. I'll keep looking for it.

Is the study you look for in the attached list of references? Those are references from phase 1, NTRS 19750016730.

[LittleBird]

You are reminding me of another rather top heavy looking tug/lander, presumably from 1970 (?) that appeared in Dave Dooling's "The Evolution of the Apollo Spacecraft-2", from Spaceflight, April 1974, pages 127-136. As he noted, it looks rather like a squid.

[leovinus]

You are reminding me of another rather top heavy looking tug/lander, presumably from 1970 (?) that appeared in Dave Dooling's "The Evolution of the Apollo Spacecraft-2", from Spaceflight, April 1974, pages 127-136. As he noted, it looks rather like a squid.

Looks like Lunar Applications of a Spent S-4B/IU Stage /LASS/, cover attached.

[LittleBird]

You are reminding me of another rather top heavy looking tug/lander, presumably from 1970 (?) that appeared in Dave Dooling's "The Evolution of the Apollo Spacecraft-2", from Spaceflight, April 1974, pages 127-136. As he noted, it looks rather like a squid.

Looks like Lunar Applications of a Spent S-4B/IU Stage /LASS/, cover attached.

Nice to see that again, reminds me of Maurice Allward's Missiles and Rockets in which it is redrawn. But tug in "my" image is not an S-IVB. Perhaps the S-70-6... code number at top left may tell us when it dates from ? I was curious because the way Dooling described it is a bit ambiguous between "late-AAP" and "early shuttle era" thinking ... as of course was the era itself ;-)