Author Topic: Skylab B  (Read 7223 times)

Offline Steve G

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Skylab B
« on: 05/24/2023 04:24 pm »
On the fiftieth anniversary of Skylab, I've always wondered how it would have played out had NASA decided that after Skylab's May 14th launch and subsequent damage that it wasn't worth salvaging, and proceeded to launch the backup, Skylab B. This assuming the funding would have been provided.

How long would have this taken to put Skylab B into flight configuration?

What design changes would be made to ensure the micrometeorite shield wouldn't tear off?

Would have they put in any improvements based on the small lessons-learned from Skylab A?

And would have it affected crew selection? (or even adding an additional flight if it was improved enough)

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Skylab B
« Reply #1 on: 05/24/2023 09:41 pm »
I actually suspect that they would not have launched the B but instead canceled the program. I don't have anything firm to support that, but money was getting tight as shuttle started to ramp up. Maybe Congress would have given them the necessary funding to launch the backup and proceed with the plan. But what would that have done to the shuttle schedule?


Offline catdlr

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Re: Skylab B
« Reply #2 on: 05/25/2023 08:57 pm »
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Offline LittleBird

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Re: Skylab B
« Reply #3 on: 05/30/2023 06:10 pm »
I actually suspect that they would not have launched the B but instead canceled the program. I don't have anything firm to support that, but money was getting tight as shuttle started to ramp up. Maybe Congress would have given them the necessary funding to launch the backup and proceed with the plan. But what would that have done to the shuttle schedule?

Not the best possible source I admit but one contemporary report-David Baker, "Diary of a Rescue Mission", Spaceflight September 1973 (via https://archive.org/details/sim_spaceflight_1973-09_15_9/page/338/mode/2up?view=theater, seee first 2 grabs) said it was briefly considered but would have needed about $300 million and taken 15 months and so was a non-starter.

The 15 month figure was echoed in the Sunday Times story of 20th May 1973 https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=15459.msg2491510#msg2491510 suggesting that both authors were working from same  source, as does the "million dollars a day" that the Times reported the programme to be costing. An earlier Spaceflight article from that year reported the requests for Skylab and the Shuttle as being of a similar order of magnitude to each other in FY 1974, with the former being about $600 million from memory, so an additional 300 to prepare the backup and Saturn V, and launch them sounds like a reasonable estimate.

« Last Edit: 05/31/2023 08:54 am by LittleBird »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Skylab B
« Reply #4 on: 05/30/2023 06:49 pm »
said it was briefly considered but would have needed about $300 million and taken 15 months and so was a non-starter.


I'd note that the context matters. Considering Skylab B because Skylab A is totally unusable is one discussion. Considering Skylab B because Skylab A might be unusable is another discussion--and that's the situation they were in.

If the administration had gone to Congress with a request for more money to launch Skylab B, they might have gotten it. But it might have come with conditions, like taking some money out of the shuttle budget to cover it.

I'd note that Skylab was launched in the midst of the Watergate investigation, with major events like televised hearings taking place in July (Nixon fired a bunch of people in October). I don't know how this affected the functioning of government. Did the executive branch become semi-paralyzed during this time? So trying to get new funding out of Congress in that environment may not have been possible because the White House was preoccupied.


Offline LittleBird

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Re: Skylab B
« Reply #5 on: 05/31/2023 09:38 am »
said it was briefly considered but would have needed about $300 million and taken 15 months and so was a non-starter.


I'd note that the context matters. Considering Skylab B because Skylab A is totally unusable is one discussion. Considering Skylab B because Skylab A might be unusable is another discussion--and that's the situation they were in.

You are of course right, but the second case is the nearest thing to the OP's question I have any data on, as it's what the Baker and Silcock articles referred to.

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If the administration had gone to Congress with a request for more money to launch Skylab B, they might have gotten it. But it might have come with conditions, like taking some money out of the shuttle budget to cover it.

It's interesting to see the numbers though. In FY 1974 NASA's request for Skylab was apparently $581 million, down by about 300 million from the year before, while Shuttle went up by a bit less, from $200 million to $475 million [Source Baker again, in Spaceflight for August 1973: https://archive.org/details/sim_spaceflight_1973-08_15_8/page/306/mode/2up?view=theater]. So to "cover" the 325 million reportedly required would have taken  more than the requested rise in the Shuttle budget for that year.

I'd guess that given the choice most of the contractor companies would have preferred the long term Shuttle rather than the short term Skylab.

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I'd note that Skylab was launched in the midst of the Watergate investigation, with major events like televised hearings taking place in July (Nixon fired a bunch of people in October). I don't know how this affected the functioning of government. Did the executive branch become semi-paralyzed during this time? So trying to get new funding out of Congress in that environment may not have been possible because the White House was preoccupied.

This is indeed a good point. It's only now that I think about it that it becomes obvious that all the main aerospace policy related decisions I can think of in the Nixon administration were before mid 72, including Shuttle, SALT I, ABM treaty, KH-11, Apollo-Soyuz, SST etc.

And of course Haldeman, who had been an important channel (or at least had sight of the memos) between White House and OMB in Shuttle bargaining  was out as Chief of Staff in April 1973.

It's also striking that apparently many people didn't even know Skylab was up there, thus reducing its national importance politically perhaps-though not to jobs in California etc.

Random examples being the Houston area poll cited in  Bryan Silcock's Times piece from 20th May 73, and J G Ballard's anecdote about his neighbour ...

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... I remember standing out in my garden on a bright, clear night and watching a moving dot of light in the sky which I realised was Skylab. I remember thinking how fantastic it was that there were men up there, and I felt really quite moved as I watched it. Through my mind there even flashed a line from every Hollywood aviation movie of the 40s, "it takes guts to fly those machines." But I meant it. Then my neighbour came out into his garden to get something and I said, "Look, there's Skylab," and he looked up and said, "Sky-what?" And I realised that he didn't know about it, and he wasn't interested. 

https://jgballard.ca/media/1979_january_UKpenthouse_magazine.html

And the Soviets were hardly helping ... two space stations lost in a row, after the tragedy of Salyut 1, didn't paint them as an immediate rival ;-) https://www.russianspaceweb.com/salyut-dos3.html
« Last Edit: 05/31/2023 03:31 pm by LittleBird »

Offline LittleBird

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Re: Skylab B
« Reply #6 on: 06/01/2023 01:19 pm »
Just to tidy up my ramblings re Skylab B, I wanted to add a slightly more primary source for how quickly it could have been launched, a brochure produced by Martin Marietta and apparently dated late 1971, see cover below.

It had a nice timeline, see second grab, which does indeed suggest  a notional availibility of a year or so.

 I fully agree with Blackstar that the OP's counterfactual is not about Skylab B as seen from the 11 days before the SL-2 rescue launch. I also realise it's also not about  the possibility of flying it as a successor to Sklab A even if that was successful, but nonetheless think some people might be interested in the section of a NASA history about why that didn't happen either:

From  https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4208/sp4208.htm, section "A Second Skylab"

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A second Skylab, under consideration since mid-1969, was a principal casualty of the 1970 budget deliberations. Shortly after the wet-to-dry switch, Charles Mathews suggested that the center program offices begin investigating artificial gravity for a second workshop; the information gained thereby would prove valuable in planning for a permanent [117] space station. In September Mueller's office broadened the study by asking the offices of space science and advanced research to propose other experiment payloads. Guidelines for a follow-on workshop, prepared in November, listed several options-a year-long occupation of a workshop similar to the first Skylab by four three-man crews, the addition of artificial gravity, substitution of a stellar telescope for the ATM, and a more complex group of earth-resource sensors. The additional logistical support and the new experiments would be accomplished with as little change as possible to the workshop's basic configuration. Since the first Skylab's backup hardware would become the second workshop, no major changes could be made on the hardware until near the end of the first missions. The committee set a series of milestones for subsequent studies: a preliminary report on 20 January 1970 to support congressional hearings, a work statement by July, and a preliminary design review in early 1971.7

The definition of new experiments continued into the new year. On 7 March, Dale D. Myers, George Mueller's successor,ii reviewed the progress of preliminary studies with his staff. The group concluded that definition of a stellar telescope had advanced far enough for present needs and that major emphasis in studies should go to artificial gravity and to payloads "providing tangible benefits of general public interest." After the meeting, Schneider asked his center program offices to provide cost estimates for three possible missions: a repeat of the first Skylab, a yearlong mission with advanced solar instruments but no major changes to the cluster, and the same configuration with advanced earth-resource instruments in place of the telescope mount.8

Answers from the centers conflicted. Houston wanted a firm commitment to a more sophisticated station, even if it meant delaying the first Skylab. Huntsville, fearing that a major commitment to a follow-on Skylab would jeopardize the present program, argued that a year-long mission was impossible without major hardware changes and that artificial gravity would double or triple costs. The most that NASA could afford in Huntsville's opinion, was a combined earth resources-solar astronomy mission of eight months' duration. Both centers' views were aired at the April meeting of the Manned Space Flight Management Council, along with Schneider's proposals for further work. The council approved additional studies of Skylab II configurations and directed the committee on artificial gravity to present its findings by early May.9

[118] Skylab II studies proceeded that summer in preparation for the FY 1972 budget discussions. Payload weight soon became a serious problem, whose solution might require modifying the second stage of the Saturn rocket. The cost outlook was more disturbing-estimates ranged from $1.32 billion to more than $1.5 billion. Schneider had discussed a second Skylab with officials from the Office of Management and Budget on 31 July and knew money would not come easily. After another review on 31 August, he informed Myers that Skylab II studies had provided sufficient data for planning purposes. Further steps awaited a funding decision.10

The decision that fall went against Skylab II. There was some question about its utility; unless the agency made expensive modifications for artificial gravity, the mission would essentially duplicate Skylab I. NASA management found that funding another workshop dictated either a much larger budget or lengthy delays in the Space Shuttle. Although there was strong support for a second Skylab in the House space committee, the Nixon administration was unwilling to underwrite the costs, and NASA did not wish to jeopardize its future programs.11

PS I have seen no primary NASA source that describes how the decision making process about Skylab B actually went in those "11 days in May" (1973), and have no idea where Baker and Silcock's remarks came from-I am assuming the US press and/or a NASA press conference.
« Last Edit: 06/01/2023 03:59 pm by LittleBird »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Skylab B
« Reply #7 on: 06/01/2023 01:54 pm »
See the attached. Many years ago I provided Thomas Frieling with a bunch of documents on this subject and encouraged him to write about it. He started with the opinion that considering that they had all the hardware built, it was a shame that they never flew it. By the time he went through the documentary evidence, he concluded that it was the right decision. You'll have to read the document to understand why.

Offline LittleBird

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Re: Skylab B
« Reply #8 on: 06/01/2023 04:57 pm »
See the attached. Many years ago I provided Thomas Frieling with a bunch of documents on this subject and encouraged him to write about it. He started with the opinion that considering that they had all the hardware built, it was a shame that they never flew it. By the time he went through the documentary evidence, he concluded that it was the right decision. You'll have to read the document to understand why.

To be honest I'm glad you prefaced it, as I hadn't quite got that conclusion from the article itself. But I've written a few papers like that myself, so I'm not in a position to carp ;-) And thanks for posting article-I'd seen a Salyut/Apollo/Soyuz concept [* in the children's magazine "Look and Learn", in April 1972: https://collections.spacecentre.co.uk/object-2014-42] but never that Skylab-based one.
« Last Edit: 06/02/2023 06:46 am by LittleBird »

Offline LittleBird

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Re: Skylab B
« Reply #9 on: 06/03/2023 07:36 am »
And re

See the attached. Many years ago I provided Thomas Frieling with a bunch of documents on this subject and encouraged him to write about it. He started with the opinion that considering that they had all the hardware built, it was a shame that they never flew it. By the time he went through the documentary evidence, he concluded that it was the right decision. You'll have to read the document to understand why.

Just wanted to add the very revealing exchange that Tom Frieling quoted in the article uploaded by Blackstar (first two grabs). It's between NASA administrator Fletcher, and Senator Lowell Weicker (R-CT) in March 1973 and seems to sum up the perceived realities nicely.

Tom's following paras, 3rd grab also make it clear that i) a usefully improved Skylab B would add a lot of money, and ii) that Fletcher was perfectly capable of contradicting himself as to the usefulness of such a mission [though his Ref 54 is actually from two years earlier, in 1971]. In the end he made the only call he could, I think, and I can see why Tom might have come to the same conclusion, as you say.

I realise that going further with this topic would tend towards Baxter-land, but many thanks to those who've posted/upped as I learned a lot beyond the nostalgia value.

 
« Last Edit: 06/03/2023 07:40 am by LittleBird »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Skylab B
« Reply #10 on: 05/11/2024 07:30 pm »
There are a bunch of different Skylab threads, but I don't think there is a main one. So I'm just going to post this here. Construction of the Apollo Telescope Mount. I assume this is the first one, not the backup, but I don't have any way of knowing.

Offline catdlr

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Re: Skylab B
« Reply #11 on: 10/31/2025 03:47 am »
Skylab II Inflight Medical Support System - TV Broadcast, 1973, Astronaut Kerwin, Restored, Station



Quote
Oct 30, 2025
Restored Skylab TV broadcast featuring Skylab II astronaut Joseph Kerwin explaining the Inflight Medical Support System. The Kinescope recording was very faded, and was remastered to improve color stability and balance towards overall neutral tones. Sound was equalised, with noise and hum reduced.
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