Author Topic: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches  (Read 43407 times)

Offline Yiosie

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #40 on: 10/24/2021 11:29 am »
It was mentioned in the VA255 broadcast that Syracuse 4B is being launched in 2023.

Specific quote at 22:42 in the broadcast:

Quote
The Syracuse 4 constellation will be progressively completed with the arrival of Syracuse 4B by 2023, and Syracuse 4C responding to the Armed Forces' need for connectivity.

It seems to leave open the possibility of launch before 2023 as well. Any other recent news regarding Syracuse 4B and 4C?

Offline GWR64

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #41 on: 10/24/2021 11:46 am »
Hervé DERREY, President & CEO of Thales Alenia Space, writes:

https://t.co/NxSE48hl4W?amp=1

Quote
Syracuse IV is a geostationary defense communications system for the French Ministry of the Armed Forces. The system comprises two satellites, Syracuse 4A, launched today, and Syracuse 4B, slated for launch in 2022.

Offline GWR64

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #42 on: 10/24/2021 07:18 pm »
Belated cross-post:
The launch of Hotbird 13f is postponed to H1 2022. But the launcher is still secret. [Eutelsat report dated July 30.]
https://www.eutelsat.com/files/PDF/investors/2020-21/FY%202020-21_Presentation_vfinal_web.pdf
We have H1 2022 launches scheduled for Hotbird 13F, Hotbird 13G, and VHTS.  However, Eutelsat has not confirmed launch vehicles for any of the three satellites.

Eutelsat press kit: October 2021
https://resources.mynewsdesk.com/image/upload/fl_attachment/o8sbokdyardtxjvajxh7

Launch provider for these satellites still "TBC". But:

Quote
• In the beginning of 2022, Eutelsat will launch an even more powerful satellite to address the
connectivity market: a next new generation Very High Throughput satellite; EUTELSAT KONNECT
VHTS, ...

 ??? What is that supposed to be?
« Last Edit: 10/24/2021 07:24 pm by GWR64 »

Offline Josh_from_Canada

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #43 on: 10/24/2021 07:59 pm »
Quote
• In the beginning of 2022, Eutelsat will launch an even more powerful satellite to address the
connectivity market: a next new generation Very High Throughput satellite; EUTELSAT KONNECT
VHTS, ...

 ??? What is that supposed to be?
Could Eutelsat Konnect VHTS be the upper payload on VA258 with Ovzon 3 being the lower payload?

I'm also thinking that Hotbird 13F launches on Falcon 9 and Hotbird 13G launches on the first Ariane 6 but that's just my speculation.
« Last Edit: 10/24/2021 08:19 pm by Josh_from_Canada »
Launches Seen: Atlas V OA-7, Falcon 9 Starlink 6-4, Falcon 9 CRS-28,

Offline GWR64

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #44 on: 10/24/2021 08:15 pm »
Yes it could be, this is my favorite VA258 Ovzon-3 and Eutelsat Konnect VHTS. Konnect VHTS is a 6.5t giant, that would fit. But that's just speculation. There are other rumors on the net as well.

Offline GWR64

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #45 on: 10/29/2021 07:58 am »
Heinrich Hertz platform and payload mating video from September 6th.
Launch is planned about 18 months later on Ariane 5. (~Q1/2023)



If it stays that way and also JUICE for the launch date is ready, there are no more Ariane 5 slots available for Eutelsat, except Eutelsat 10B.
However, one Ariane 5 will launch with 2 light payloads.

Confirmed again Syracuse 4B launch in 2022.
https://www.defense.gouv.fr/espanol/actualites/articles/lancement-reussi-pour-syracuse-4a-un-satellite-militaire-de-derniere-generation
« Last Edit: 10/29/2021 07:59 am by GWR64 »

Offline Josh_from_Canada

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #46 on: 10/29/2021 08:38 am »
There's more payloads listed for Ariane 5 then slots available. The upper slots have been mostly determined while there's more unknows with the lower slots. GSAT 24, Ovzon 3, MTG-I 1, Syracuse 4B, and Heinrich Hertz are all listed for Ariane 5 while there's only 4 more GTO launches left. Will Ovzon 3 launch with one of these payloads or has something been moved to a different rocket? Is the Ariane 5 with 2 light payloads your referring to the mission with two Galaxy spacecraft?
Launches Seen: Atlas V OA-7, Falcon 9 Starlink 6-4, Falcon 9 CRS-28,

Offline GWR64

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #47 on: 10/29/2021 08:55 am »
There's more payloads listed for Ariane 5 then slots available. The upper slots have been mostly determined while there's more unknows with the lower slots. GSAT 24, Ovzon 3, MTG-I 1, Syracuse 4B, and Heinrich Hertz are all listed for Ariane 5 while there's only 4 more GTO launches left. Will Ovzon 3 launch with one of these payloads or has something been moved to a different rocket? Is the Ariane 5 with 2 light payloads your referring to the mission with two Galaxy spacecraft?

https://www.arianespace.com/press-release/intelsat-entrusts-arianespace-for-the-launch-of-three-c-band-satellites-on-ariane-5-and-ariane-6/
Quote
Arianespace will launch the Galaxy 35 and Galaxy 36 satellites together as a stacked pair in 2022

So that's one upper payload, i think.

One of the lower payloads mentioned will be have to launch as "upper payload".

Offline Josh_from_Canada

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #48 on: 11/10/2021 05:59 am »
Is it still planned to launch on Ariane 5 or did this delay cause a move to Ariane 6?

[Re: Yiosie's original post in the Ariane launch schedule thread--JUICE launch delayed NET August 2023.  That post was cross-posted here and to the JUICE program thread in the space science sub-forum.]
« Last Edit: 11/10/2021 06:38 am by zubenelgenubi »
Launches Seen: Atlas V OA-7, Falcon 9 Starlink 6-4, Falcon 9 CRS-28,

Online zubenelgenubi

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #49 on: 11/10/2021 05:59 am »
Ariane 5 operations extended into 2023?
Cross-post:
Multiple ESA mission webpages had their launch dates updated on November 8.

JUICE delayed to NET August 2023:

https://sci.esa.int/web/juice

Quote
Planned for launch in 2023, it will spend at least three years making detailed observations of the giant gaseous planet Jupiter and three of its largest moons, Ganymede, Callisto and Europa.

https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/nmc/spacecraft/display.action?id=JUICE

Quote
JUICE is scheduled to be launched in a window running from 26 August to 15 September 2022 on an Ariane 5 from the European Spaceport in Kourou, French Guiana. (A backup launch date is scheduled for August 2023, arriving at Jupiter in August 2031.)
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Offline Star One

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #50 on: 11/10/2021 06:49 am »
Delays caused by the pandemic?

Offline Josh_from_Canada

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #51 on: 11/12/2021 07:21 pm »
With JUICE getting delayed into 2023 there's a high chance that it launches on the final Ariane 5.
Launches Seen: Atlas V OA-7, Falcon 9 Starlink 6-4, Falcon 9 CRS-28,

Offline GWR64

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #52 on: 11/12/2021 07:23 pm »
Is it still planned to launch on Ariane 5 or did this delay cause a move to Ariane 6?

[Re: Yiosie's original post in the Ariane launch schedule thread--JUICE launch delayed NET August 2023.  That post was cross-posted here and to the JUICE program thread in the space science sub-forum.]

The contract with Arianespace provides for a launch on Ariane 5 ECA or Ariane 64.
So I think that JUICE should launch on an Ariane 64 in 2023, if that is possible.
The Ariane 64 should certainly have at least one successful flight beforehand. There is not much time.
 :(
« Last Edit: 11/12/2021 07:28 pm by GWR64 »

Online zubenelgenubi

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #53 on: 11/12/2021 08:25 pm »
Partial restatement of the above and adding my own thoughts:

I guess ESA and Arianespace are performing or have performed a costs/benefits analysis regarding keeping the logistics for Ariane 5 operable on stand-by for several months into 2023.

I.e. the gap between whatever GEOsat pair rides VA260 in late 2022, and (assumed) VA261 for JUICE in August 2023.

If one or more Ariane 5 flights are delayed into 2023, then the unique costs for an Ariane 5 JUICE launch are less?

Or, they shift a final GEOsat pair to VA261, launch it in late 2022 or early 2023, and proceed to close ELA-3 and all the other Ariane 5 support mechanisms.

JUICE launches aboard an early Ariane 64 in August 2023.

The costs/benefits analysis is the unknown mechanism to me (to all of us on the outside?).  What goes on in that "black box?"
« Last Edit: 11/12/2021 08:28 pm by zubenelgenubi »
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Offline Star One

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #54 on: 11/12/2021 08:40 pm »
Is it still planned to launch on Ariane 5 or did this delay cause a move to Ariane 6?

[Re: Yiosie's original post in the Ariane launch schedule thread--JUICE launch delayed NET August 2023.  That post was cross-posted here and to the JUICE program thread in the space science sub-forum.]

The contract with Arianespace provides for a launch on Ariane 5 ECA or Ariane 64.
So I think that JUICE should launch on an Ariane 64 in 2023, if that is possible.
The Ariane 64 should certainly have at least one successful flight beforehand. There is not much time.
 :(
Wouldn’t they want more than one successful mission of Ariane 64 before launching a mission as important as JUICE.

Offline woods170

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #55 on: 11/12/2021 09:19 pm »
Is it still planned to launch on Ariane 5 or did this delay cause a move to Ariane 6?

[Re: Yiosie's original post in the Ariane launch schedule thread--JUICE launch delayed NET August 2023.  That post was cross-posted here and to the JUICE program thread in the space science sub-forum.]

The contract with Arianespace provides for a launch on Ariane 5 ECA or Ariane 64.
So I think that JUICE should launch on an Ariane 64 in 2023, if that is possible.
The Ariane 64 should certainly have at least one successful flight beforehand. There is not much time.
 :(
Wouldn’t they want more than one successful mission of Ariane 64 before launching a mission as important as JUICE.

No.

Contrary to what some people might think the Ariane 6 is hardly a new vehicle. It uses derivatives of the Vega-C first stage for boosters. That Vega-C first stage in itself is an evolution of the current Vega first stage.
The Vulcain 2.1 main engine is a minor evolution of the Vulcain 2.0 engine which is currently in use on Ariane 5. Changes mostly concern simplifying the nozzle and slightly increasing the ISP.
The payload fairings are slightly modified versions of the ones flying on Ariane 5.
The core stage propellant tanks and plumbing are direct evolutions of the same items on Ariane 5.
Only the Vinci-driven upper stage is "new", but the core of that upper stage carries many design elements of the current Ariane 5 ECA upper stage. And Vinci is by now the most tested upper stage engine in the world, courtesy of it having been in development for the better part of 20 years.

If anything, the Ariane 6 is an evolution of Ariane 5. That was not the case in the latter half of the 1990s. Ariane 5 was a radical break from the previous 4 Ariane models.
As such the risks involved in the first Ariane 6 missions are very much less than the risks involved with the first Ariane 5 missions.

Ariane 6 is not like the all-new Ariane 1 or the all-new Ariane 5.

Online Bean Kenobi

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #56 on: 11/12/2021 09:32 pm »
Is it still planned to launch on Ariane 5 or did this delay cause a move to Ariane 6?

[Re: Yiosie's original post in the Ariane launch schedule thread--JUICE launch delayed NET August 2023.  That post was cross-posted here and to the JUICE program thread in the space science sub-forum.]

The contract with Arianespace provides for a launch on Ariane 5 ECA or Ariane 64.
So I think that JUICE should launch on an Ariane 64 in 2023, if that is possible.
The Ariane 64 should certainly have at least one successful flight beforehand. There is not much time.
 :(
Wouldn’t they want more than one successful mission of Ariane 64 before launching a mission as important as JUICE.

No.

Contrary to what some people might think the Ariane 6 is hardly a new vehicle. It uses derivatives of the Vega-C first stage for boosters. That Vega-C first stage in itself is an evolution of the current Vega first stage.
The Vulcain 2.1 main engine is a minor evolution of the Vulcain 2.0 engine which is currently in use on Ariane 5. Changes mostly concern simplifying the nozzle and slightly increasing the ISP.
The payload fairings are slightly modified versions of the ones flying on Ariane 5.
The core stage propellant tanks and plumbing are direct evolutions of the same items on Ariane 5.
Only the Vinci-driven upper stage is "new", but the core of that upper stage carries many design elements of the current Ariane 5 ECA upper stage. And Vinci is by now the most tested upper stage engine in the world, courtesy of it having been in development for the better part of 20 years.

If anything, the Ariane 6 is an evolution of Ariane 5. That was not the case in the latter half of the 1990s. Ariane 5 was a radical break from the previous 4 Ariane models.
As such the risks involved in the first Ariane 6 missions are very much less than the risks involved with the first Ariane 5 missions.

Ariane 6 is not like the all-new Ariane 1 or the all-new Ariane 5.

... without forgetting launches of Ariane 62 that would also occur before this flight. Ariane 64 is an Ariane 62 with 2 more boosters.

Offline Star One

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #57 on: 11/13/2021 09:13 am »
Is it still planned to launch on Ariane 5 or did this delay cause a move to Ariane 6?

[Re: Yiosie's original post in the Ariane launch schedule thread--JUICE launch delayed NET August 2023.  That post was cross-posted here and to the JUICE program thread in the space science sub-forum.]

The contract with Arianespace provides for a launch on Ariane 5 ECA or Ariane 64.
So I think that JUICE should launch on an Ariane 64 in 2023, if that is possible.
The Ariane 64 should certainly have at least one successful flight beforehand. There is not much time.
 :(
Wouldn’t they want more than one successful mission of Ariane 64 before launching a mission as important as JUICE.

No.

Contrary to what some people might think the Ariane 6 is hardly a new vehicle. It uses derivatives of the Vega-C first stage for boosters. That Vega-C first stage in itself is an evolution of the current Vega first stage.
The Vulcain 2.1 main engine is a minor evolution of the Vulcain 2.0 engine which is currently in use on Ariane 5. Changes mostly concern simplifying the nozzle and slightly increasing the ISP.
The payload fairings are slightly modified versions of the ones flying on Ariane 5.
The core stage propellant tanks and plumbing are direct evolutions of the same items on Ariane 5.
Only the Vinci-driven upper stage is "new", but the core of that upper stage carries many design elements of the current Ariane 5 ECA upper stage. And Vinci is by now the most tested upper stage engine in the world, courtesy of it having been in development for the better part of 20 years.

If anything, the Ariane 6 is an evolution of Ariane 5. That was not the case in the latter half of the 1990s. Ariane 5 was a radical break from the previous 4 Ariane models.
As such the risks involved in the first Ariane 6 missions are very much less than the risks involved with the first Ariane 5 missions.

Ariane 6 is not like the all-new Ariane 1 or the all-new Ariane 5.
Not to go off topic if it is so similar to Ariane 5 are they looking to make the savings on it I’ve seen claimed through the production process then.

Offline woods170

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #58 on: 11/13/2021 05:12 pm »
Wouldn’t they want more than one successful mission of Ariane 64 before launching a mission as important as JUICE.

No.

Contrary to what some people might think the Ariane 6 is hardly a new vehicle. It uses derivatives of the Vega-C first stage for boosters. That Vega-C first stage in itself is an evolution of the current Vega first stage.
The Vulcain 2.1 main engine is a minor evolution of the Vulcain 2.0 engine which is currently in use on Ariane 5. Changes mostly concern simplifying the nozzle and slightly increasing the ISP.
The payload fairings are slightly modified versions of the ones flying on Ariane 5.
The core stage propellant tanks and plumbing are direct evolutions of the same items on Ariane 5.
Only the Vinci-driven upper stage is "new", but the core of that upper stage carries many design elements of the current Ariane 5 ECA upper stage. And Vinci is by now the most tested upper stage engine in the world, courtesy of it having been in development for the better part of 20 years.

If anything, the Ariane 6 is an evolution of Ariane 5. That was not the case in the latter half of the 1990s. Ariane 5 was a radical break from the previous 4 Ariane models.
As such the risks involved in the first Ariane 6 missions are very much less than the risks involved with the first Ariane 5 missions.

Ariane 6 is not like the all-new Ariane 1 or the all-new Ariane 5.
Not to go off topic if it is so similar to Ariane 5 are they looking to make the savings on it I’ve seen claimed through the production process then.

The promised savings won't be made. That is, not entirely.

Vulcain 2.1 is cheaper to produce since the nozzle has 90% less parts. Other elements of Vulcain 2.1 have also seen a drastic reduction in parts count.

The solids are now a shared item with Vega-C, providing for savings thru economy of scale.
What also helps is that the solids are now monolithic in nature, instead of the segmented steel solids on Ariane 5.
Casting the propellant is now an all-CSG effort, whereas for Ariane 5 the top most segment of the SRB came pre-cast from Europe. So, no longer the need to have a propellant mixing and casting factory in Europe.

Production of the Ariane 6 core stage tankage and plumbing now profit from 21st century manufacturing technology (both better and cheaper), whereas Ariane 5 core stage is still being produced with tooling from the early 1990s.
Same for the A6 upper stage.

Integration of the core stage and upper stage is now done horizontally. That requires a different, less expensive integration building and doing away with the hazards (and associated addtional cost) of vertical integration. Final integration of the boosters and the payload is done vertically, AT the launchpad. This does away with the need for a mobile launch table and its associated tracks and truck. The overall launch preparation flow is simpler, more akin to the one used by Soyuz at CSG.

The number of subcontractors has been substantially reduced, courtesy of consolidation and reduction of overall parts count.
« Last Edit: 11/15/2021 09:36 am by woods170 »

Offline libra

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Re: Final Ariane 5 ECA+ launches
« Reply #59 on: 11/13/2021 06:34 pm »
Quote
If anything, the Ariane 6 is an evolution of Ariane 5. That was not the case in the latter half of the 1990s. Ariane 5 was a radical break from the previous 4 Ariane models.

yup. Ariane 5 was, and will remain, an anomaly in Ariane family. All this because of (bad) Shuttle & Hermes influences... (SSME & Vulcain, SRBs recoverable at sea, and Hermes on top... 24 mt heavy when it was canned in 1992. Solids grew from P170 to P230+ as a result).

http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/ariane/index.htm

Ariane 6 is a return to Ariane 4 modularity, which is not a bad thing...

The missing link between Ariane 4 and Ariane 6 is on the picture below. The familiar Ariane 5 was called 5P for "poudre" (= powder = solid fuel)

5C (Cryogenic) was a basic Ariane architecture: 4+1 engines, 2 stages - except with hydrolox Vulcains instead of storable Vikings. 100% cryogenic, just like Delta IV.

5R (Reference) was the "true" heir of Ariane 1 - 4 - 44L family. It was very much a 44L with the second stage Viking "lowered" on the first stage, so total 9*Vikings there. And on the second stage was a HM-60 Vulcain.

Ariane 6 is closer from 5C than current Ariane 5 "P".

Ariane 5R in turns harcked back to Europa IIIB (4*Viking+1*HM-20) , the German proposal of 1973 that lost to the French L3S: Ariane 1.



The choice above was made according to the following criteria

- 5C rejected because "all cryogenic, all Vulcain" was too risky

- 5R was initially prefered (1979-84) because Ariane 44L legacy; but ended as a bloated monster: that hydrolox second stage was just too voluminous and the entire thing looked ridiculous - and also too tall for control.

- 5P was a dark horse that ultimately won, because Shuttle, because "just one Vulcain" and because "Hermes went from 7 mt in 1979 to 24 mt in 1991 : well just add moar solid fuel to the boosters !" Basically 5C and 5R could launch a 13 mt Hermes and had no growth margin beyond that number.

But the huge solids made it very unflexible. and completely overkill once Hermes was gone, 4 years before 1996 !
That "overkill" was intelligently "recycled" for very heavy comsats, mixed with medium weight ones.

--------------

Ideally, the 5P core should have been flown without the solids: but it would have taken a lot of Ariane 3 & 4 PAP (= GEM small boosters) to lift it off the ground: Vulcain was too weak and the core too heavy.

EDIT: maybe, maybe not. Ariane 4 PAP started on the ground, with 75 tons thrust so two of them, 150 mt of thrust. EPC and above are 200 mt (aproximately) Vulcain 1 was 114 mt thrust and Vulcain 2, 135 mt.

So how about that: Ariane 5 core + 2*PAP could have worked ! Intriguing...

-------------
« Last Edit: 11/15/2021 05:15 am by libra »

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