Author Topic: LVM3 M4 - Chandrayaan-3 - SLP - 14 July 2023 09:05:17 UTC  (Read 70231 times)

Offline zubenelgenubi

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11329
  • Arc to Arcturus, then Spike to Spica
  • Sometimes it feels like Trantor in the time of Hari Seldon
  • Liked: 7524
  • Likes Given: 73494
Chandrayaan-3 and Vikram-2

From: Chandrayaan-3: Second bid to land on Moon by November 2020, Times of India, Nov. 13
Quote
BENGALURU: The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), which failed to land a probe on the Moon in its first attempt in September 2019 (Chandrayaan-2), has begun work on Chandrayaan-3 with a deadline of November 2020, sources said.
<snip>
The new mission will include only a lander and rover, as the Chandrayaan-2 orbiter is functioning well.
<snip>
Another scientist said among the top priority for the new mission is “strengthening the legs of the lander”, so that it allows landing even with a high velocity.
<snip>
A source said Isro teams are looking at having a detachable module that will carry fuel. “Tentatively called the propulsion module, it will help in taking the landing module — which will have the rover sitting inside the lander — to the lunar orbit.

(Noted by:
TheVarun: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32023.msg2014602#msg2014602
sanjaykumar: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=20324.msg2014683#msg2014683
Steven Pietrobon: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=20324.msg2014685#msg2014685 )
***

EDIT/ADD: I am also curious if this mission can be accommodated aboard a GSLV Mk II via a reduction in mass--substituting the orbiter with a "propulsion module."  That's why I placed the (?) after the GSLV Mk III in the original thread title.

Due to not having to carry an orbiter, it may be possible that a GSLV Mk.II could be used, like what was original planned for Chandrayaan 2.
« Last Edit: 07/13/2023 05:52 pm by zubenelgenubi »
Support your local planetarium! (COVID-panic and forward: Now more than ever.) My current avatar is saying "i wants to go uppies!" Yes, there are God-given rights. Do you wish to gainsay the Declaration of Independence?

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5986
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: GSLV Mk III (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #1 on: 11/14/2019 06:35 am »
If at first you don't succeed, try and try again!

Quote
A source said Isro teams are looking at having a detachable module that will carry fuel. “Tentatively called the propulsion module, it will help in taking the landing module — which will have the rover sitting inside the lander — to the lunar orbit,” the source said. In Chandrayaan-2, fuel carried on the orbiter was used for all the manoeuvres performed post launch and until the separation of the landing module. Here, the propulsion module will aid this process. Isro is also looking at reducing the number of manoeuvres around Earth and also during the transit to the lunar orbit. “Instead of six manoeuvres, we may have just three or four,” a source said.

So that sounds like the makings of an Earth Departure Stage.
Too bad they can't use a bigger + restartable version of the Cryogenic Upper Stage, and use it like a Centaur. Could that conceivably work? Perhaps that would unnecessarily add risk.

I wonder how significant the changes will be to the lander, and possibly even the rover?
They said better landing legs, but could they even just make a bigger lander, and possibly even a bigger rover?
After all, they're not having to carry the weight of the orbiter on this second time around. The propulsion module would be expendable.

Could they also target a more interesting landing site, perhaps even closer to the lunar south pole like Aitken basin or Shackleton?

Gee, I hope this won't adversely impact the Gaganyaan human spaceflight mission. Anyway, if they're announcing it like this, then it means the PMO is giving their support and putting up the funds.
« Last Edit: 11/14/2019 07:28 am by sanman »

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5986
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: GSLV Mk III (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #2 on: 11/14/2019 07:32 am »
Just as an aside, NASA's Mars Pathfinder landing method with the airbags doesn't seem like a bad way to go either. At least it doesn't require the same level of precision to achieve a successful landing.

Online Steven Pietrobon

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 39305
  • Adelaide, Australia
    • Steven Pietrobon's Space Archive
  • Liked: 32874
  • Likes Given: 8365
Re: GSLV Mk III (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #3 on: 11/14/2019 08:13 am »
I'm very pleased to hear that ISRO have decided to have another attempt at landing on the Moon, before attempting the more ambitious sample return mission, which will presumably now be called Chandrayaan 4. Due to not having to carry an orbiter, it may be possible that a GSLV Mk.II could be used, like what was original planned for Chandrayaan 2.

I wonder how significant the changes will be to the lander, and possibly even the rover?
They said better landing legs, but could they even just make a bigger lander, and possibly even a bigger rover?

I don't think there will be large changes, especially if they want to launch in one year's time. ISRO should only do the changes that fix the problems that prevented the first landing attempt.
« Last Edit: 11/14/2019 08:14 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5986
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: GSLV Mk III (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #4 on: 11/14/2019 08:39 am »
Fair enough. I wish they could find a way to include that archive crystal thing that Beresheet had. I don't think it weighed that much.

And couldn't they try for a different landing site that's closer to the south pole / Shackleton crater area?

Chandrayaan-2 orbiter will be able to provide a better map to land with this next time around.

Online Steven Pietrobon

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 39305
  • Adelaide, Australia
    • Steven Pietrobon's Space Archive
  • Liked: 32874
  • Likes Given: 8365
Re: GSLV Mk III (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #5 on: 11/14/2019 10:14 am »
And couldn't they try for a different landing site that's closer to the south pole / Shackleton crater area?

The lander is probably designed not to land closer to the pole, where the Sun will be very low in the horizon and the lighting conditions more difficult. I think it would be better to just stick with the current location.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5986
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: GSLV Mk III (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #6 on: 11/14/2019 02:06 pm »
I wonder whether / how they'll change the thruster configuration this time around. The Chandrayaan-2 review panels seem to have come out with their report, which will likely form the basis for corrections. No idea what conclusions they've reached, but the media will probably access it through RTI and give a synopsis to the masses.

There was also previously speculation on propellant slosh in the tanks, so I wonder if they'll change the tank configuration too.

Offline zubenelgenubi

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11329
  • Arc to Arcturus, then Spike to Spica
  • Sometimes it feels like Trantor in the time of Hari Seldon
  • Liked: 7524
  • Likes Given: 73494
Re: GSLV Mk III (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #7 on: 11/14/2019 07:04 pm »
Due to not having to carry an orbiter, it may be possible that a GSLV Mk.II could be used, like what was original planned for Chandrayaan 2.

{I'm going to be "that guy" on this NSF forum thread and immediately jump to discussing the launch vehicle, instead of the science.} ;D

Assuming mass reduction sufficient to launch on a GSLV Mk II, will another GSLV Mk II 2020/1 payload have to make way for Chandrayaan-3 and launch later?  Or is LV production sufficient to accommodate an addition to the launch cadence 12 months out?
« Last Edit: 11/14/2019 07:05 pm by zubenelgenubi »
Support your local planetarium! (COVID-panic and forward: Now more than ever.) My current avatar is saying "i wants to go uppies!" Yes, there are God-given rights. Do you wish to gainsay the Declaration of Independence?

Offline K210

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 606
  • Liked: 284
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: GSLV Mk III (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #8 on: 11/14/2019 08:52 pm »
Due to not having to carry an orbiter, it may be possible that a GSLV Mk.II could be used, like what was original planned for Chandrayaan 2.

{I'm going to be "that guy" on this NSF forum thread and immediately jump to discussing the launch vehicle, instead of the science.} ;D

Assuming mass reduction sufficient to launch on a GSLV Mk II, will another GSLV Mk II 2020/1 payload have to make way for Chandrayaan-3 and launch later?  Or is LV production sufficient to accommodate an addition to the launch cadence 12 months out?

Launch vehicle will probably be Mk-2. Mk-3 is all booked out for 2020 with GSAT-20 in june and HSP test flight by year end. Mk-2 with its 2.7 ton GTO payload capacity should be able to launch lander/rover/propulsion module with margin to spare.
« Last Edit: 11/14/2019 08:53 pm by K210 »

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5986
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: GSLV Mk II (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #9 on: 11/18/2019 02:57 am »
Since the propulsion module is a new and different thing this time around, what is it likely to consist of?

Will it be a Liquid Apogee Motor similar to what was on the orbiter the last time?

Could we see anything like electric propulsion, similar to ESA's SMART-1? Or will they just keep it simple and low-risk?

Could they potentially hurl that propulsion module into a crater to stir up a debris cloud for analysis, like LCROSS did?

Why can't they just use the thrusters onboard the lander itself to propel it towards the Moon, while making use of an extra propellant tank?
« Last Edit: 11/18/2019 03:14 am by sanman »

Offline Phil Stooke

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1358
  • Canada
  • Liked: 1426
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: GSLV Mk II (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #10 on: 11/18/2019 03:51 pm »
You can't change very much if you want to fly in 1 months.  Software is the most likely thing to change.

EDIT:  I meant to type '12 months' - sorry!
« Last Edit: 11/19/2019 05:22 pm by Phil Stooke »

Offline russianhalo117

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8766
  • Liked: 4683
  • Likes Given: 768
Re: GSLV Mk II (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #11 on: 11/18/2019 04:23 pm »
You can't change very much if you want to fly in 1 months.  Software is the most likely thing to change.
Phil November 2020-2021 NOT 2019. So they have under a years time.

Offline zubenelgenubi

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11329
  • Arc to Arcturus, then Spike to Spica
  • Sometimes it feels like Trantor in the time of Hari Seldon
  • Liked: 7524
  • Likes Given: 73494
Re: GSLV Mk II (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #12 on: 11/18/2019 05:48 pm »
Given that this is planned to launch 12 months from now, I assume the KISS principle is in play.  Speculation follows.

The propulsion module might be built on the I-3K bus, as the orbiter is, but stripped down to serve as the propulsion module.  Would such a simplification reduce the mass enough to launch on a GSLV Mk II?

Re: launch mass reduction--if the above is not sufficient, construct the propulsion module using the I-2K bus.

As mentioned above, execute whatever software changes are needed.

"Doing an LCROSS" on the Moon--an interesting opportunity to coordinate resources, in lunar orbit and on Earth.

Further re: KISS.  What spares or parts does ISRO currently have that can be used for Chandrayaan-3?

(KISS = Keep It Simple, Silly)
« Last Edit: 11/18/2019 08:29 pm by zubenelgenubi »
Support your local planetarium! (COVID-panic and forward: Now more than ever.) My current avatar is saying "i wants to go uppies!" Yes, there are God-given rights. Do you wish to gainsay the Declaration of Independence?

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5986
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: GSLV Mk II (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #13 on: 11/19/2019 04:51 pm »
Chandrayaan-3 lander will have modifications based on what went wrong in the Chandrayaan-2 landing:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/chandrayaan-3-plans-indicate-failures-in-chandrayaan-2/articleshow/72128771.cms

Updated guidance algorithm

Addition of laser doppler velocity sensor

Improved data rate for real time video

Strengthening of lander legs

Solar cells even on door side of lander

Additional communication antennas in case lander doesn't land upright
« Last Edit: 11/28/2019 11:25 am by sanman »

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5986
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: GSLV Mk II (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #14 on: 11/21/2019 08:29 pm »

"Doing an LCROSS" on the Moon--an interesting opportunity to coordinate resources, in lunar orbit and on Earth.


If the propulsion module is traveling all the way to the Moon, it would be better to make additional use of it for doing what the upper Centaur stage of LCROSS did.

Based on Chandrayaan-3 landing site's rough proximity to the lunar south pole, that means a highly inclined orbital plane would be achieved with that propulsion module. So perhaps that could allow for that module to be hurled into a crater in the south polar region.
I wonder which place could be selected as a useful target?

Perhaps then LRO, Selene, Chandrayaan-2 orbiter, etc could get a glimpse of whatever debris cloud gets stirred up.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: GSLV Mk II (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #15 on: 11/23/2019 04:16 pm »

"Doing an LCROSS" on the Moon--an interesting opportunity to coordinate resources, in lunar orbit and on Earth.


If the propulsion module is traveling all the way to the Moon, it would be better to make additional use of it for doing what the upper Centaur stage of LCROSS did.

Based on Chandrayaan-3 landing site's rough proximity to the lunar south pole, that means a highly inclined orbital plane would be achieved with that propulsion module. So perhaps that could allow for that module to be hurled into a crater in the south polar region.
I wonder which place could be selected as a useful target?

Perhaps then LRO, Selene, Chandrayaan-2 orbiter, etc could get a glimpse of whatever debris cloud gets stirred up.
Don't need another LCROSS, we now need rovers or landers that can sample ice concentrations on the ground.

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5986
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: GSLV Mk II (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #16 on: 11/24/2019 02:25 am »
Will Chandrayaan-3 be insured?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/chandrayaan-3-might-be-insured-a-first-in-four-decades/articleshow/72180469.cms

How/why would you insure a Moon mission? On the other hand, maybe it would help ISRO to get customers for more such missions in the future. Instead of merely delivering payloads to orbit, ISRO could also deliver them to the Moon. Maybe that will get more rovers, etc on the ground there.

Offline chota

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 267
  • Liked: 108
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: GSLV Mk II (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #17 on: 11/27/2019 08:43 am »
Some points to ponder

> Will the Lander dimensions allow it to be fitted inside the payload faring of GSLV-Mk2

> What will the new Lander/rover combo called? Will it be called as Vikram and pragyaan again?

Online Steven Pietrobon

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 39305
  • Adelaide, Australia
    • Steven Pietrobon's Space Archive
  • Liked: 32874
  • Likes Given: 8365
Re: GSLV Mk II (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #18 on: 11/28/2019 07:05 am »
Some points to ponder

> Will the Lander dimensions allow it to be fitted inside the payload faring of GSLV-Mk2

I expect so, as Chandrayaan 2 was originally going to launch on GSLV Mk.2.

Quote
> What will the new Lander/rover combo called? Will it be called as Vikram and pragyaan again?

That's really up to ISRO to decide, but logically it could be Vikram 2 and Pragyaan 2.
« Last Edit: 11/28/2019 07:05 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5986
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: GSLV Mk II (?) - Chandrayaan-3 - November 2020
« Reply #19 on: 12/03/2019 04:55 pm »
Funding of 75 Crore rupees is being sought for Chandrayaan-3. Out of this, Rs.60 Crores would be expenditure on hardware:

https://english.newstracklive.com/news/chandrayaan-3-preparations-government-demands-permission-of-75-crore-from-parliament-mc23-nu-1051924-1.html


Quote
New Delhi: The central government has started preparations for the Chandrayaan-3 project and has sought approval to allocate Rs 75 crore from Parliament for this. This information has been received from the papers of supplementary demands for the year 2019-20 presented in Parliament. Under the first batch of grant demands for the current financial year, the government has sought approval from Parliament to allocate related funds for the new project Chandrayaan-3 under the head of the Department of Space.

These funds have been sought in two categories. The paper on the supplementary demand for the grant presented by the Union Finance Minister Nirmala Sitharaman said that a grant of Rs 15 crore should be approved to meet the expenditure of the new project ie Chandrayaan-3. It said that in the context of the new project ie Chandrayaan-3, a grant of Rs 60 crore should be approved for machinery and equipment and other capital expenditure. Earlier, the Department of Space had said in a statement that, for the necessary technology proficiency in relation to Chandrayaan 3, ISRO has prepared a roadmap for moon exploration.

This roadmap has been presented before the Space Commission. Based on the last analysis and recommendations of the expert committee, work is going on for future moon mission. In the context of Chandrayaan-3 project, work has started on the landing site, local navigation and other points and a meeting has been held on this.

Tags: chandrayaan-3 ISRO Moon 
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0