Author Topic: Lunar Gateway Debate  (Read 138611 times)

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #220 on: 03/11/2019 03:53 am »
Gateway lunar outpost? OK. Are we going to refer to it as Glo?

At night will it Glo in the dark?  :P

Online Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #221 on: 03/14/2019 12:04 am »
It seems that the Gateway is in fact an old idea, but only for Lunar surface access. After watching the MSFC history video of Dr. Margrit von Braun (Werner von Braun's daughter) showing a slide of the August 1969 Mars mission, I found this set of slides given by Werner von Braun in August 1969 to the Space Task Group.

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/19690804_manned_mars_landing_presentation_to_the_space_task_group_by_dr._wernher_von_braun.pdf

The Mars mission was part of the "Integrated Space Program" which included the following elements:

Saturn V
Space Shuttle
SSM (Space Station Module?, 6.6 m diameter)
Tug (6.6 m diameter)
Nuclear Shuttle (10 m diameter)
Mars Excursion Module (MEM, 10 m diameter)

The SSM is basically an advanced version of Skylab, built to the same dimensions. The SSMs (carrying 6 crew each) would be used in an Earth orbit space station (12 crew), Earth orbit space base (100 crew), geosynchronous orbit space station (25 crew), Lunar orbit station (6 to 25 crew), Lunar surface base (6 to 48 crew), Mars mission module (6 crew), Mars orbit space station (24 crew) and Mars surface base (12 to 48 crew).

In the first slide, after the Apollo extended missions, the plan was to first build a Lunar orbit station with 6 crew using one SSM. Presumably the Tug would be used for Lunar surface access. Sound familiar to anyone? It seems that these types of plans are embedded in NASA's DNA! Just a matter of ticking the boxes one by one.
« Last Edit: 03/14/2019 12:07 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline RonM

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #222 on: 03/14/2019 01:33 am »
The grand plans before computers were powerful enough to replace crew. Seemed like a good idea at the time, except for the cost.

Offline libra

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #223 on: 03/14/2019 04:38 pm »
Gateway lunar outpost? OK. Are we going to refer to it as Glo?

At night will it Glo in the dark?  :P

https://www.flickr.com/groups/2810904@N20/

Day-glo !

Online theinternetftw

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #224 on: 03/20/2019 08:45 pm »
From the human lander Industry Day:

<snipping human lander stuff>

* The preliminary Gateway NRHO is 71,100km x 3,366 km. This is still under review.
« Last Edit: 03/20/2019 11:37 pm by theinternetftw »

Offline yg1968

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #225 on: 03/20/2019 10:55 pm »
This article from a month ago provides an update on the PPE awards:

Quote from: SN
NASA, which had anticipated awarding contracts [for the PPE] in March, now expects starting work by the end of May. That delay will have a domino effect on the overall PPE project, including when the module will be launched. NASA stated in the procurement filing that it expects “a corresponding shift in the target launch date from September 2022 to no later than December 31, 2022.”

https://spacenews.com/shutdown-to-delay-first-element-of-nasas-lunar-gateway/
« Last Edit: 03/20/2019 10:57 pm by yg1968 »

Offline Tywin

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Offline gosnold

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #227 on: 03/26/2019 08:32 pm »
VP Pence just called for a return to the Moon in 2024:
https://mailchi.mp/spacenews/just-in-pence-calls-for-human-return-to-the-moon-by-2024

Already the usual suspects are making their moves (from Chris B's twitter):
Quote
Lockheed Martin talking about scaling down Gateway and "an aggressive but achievable schedule"

These space council meetings should come with their own supply of popcorn...

Online catdlr

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #228 on: 03/26/2019 11:47 pm »
March 26, 2019
RELEASE 19-022

NASA Administrator Statement on Return to Moon in Next Five Years


The following is a statement from NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine on Tuesday’s announcement by Vice President Mike Pence, at the fifth meeting of the National Space Council, about putting American astronauts back on the Moon in the next five years:

“Today, I joined leaders from across the country as Vice President Mike Pence chaired the fifth meeting of the National Space Council. Vice President Pence lauded President Donald J. Trump’s bold vision for space exploration and spoke to NASA’s progress on key elements to accomplish the President’s Space Policy Directives.

“Among the many topics discussed during our meeting at the U.S. Space and Rocket Center in Huntsville, Alabama, was to accelerate our return to the Moon:

NASA is charged to get American astronauts to the Moon in the next five years.
We are tasked with landing on the Moon’s South Pole by 2024.
Stay on schedule for flying Exploration Mission-1 with Orion on the Space Launch System (SLS) rocket next year, and for sending the first crewed mission to the lunar vicinity by 2022.
NASA will continue to ‘use all means necessary’ to ensure mission success in moving us forward to the Moon.
“It is the right time for this challenge, and I assured the Vice President that we, the people of NASA, are up to the challenge.

“We will take action in the days and weeks ahead to accomplish these goals. We have laid out a clear plan for NASA’s exploration campaign that cuts across three strategic areas: low-Earth orbit, the Moon, and Mars and deeper into space.

“I have already directed a new alignment within NASA to ensure we effectively support this effort, which includes establishing a new mission directorate to focus on the formulation and execution of exploration development activities. We are calling it the Moon to Mars Mission Directorate.

“Earlier today I was also at Marshall Space Flight Center for an all-hands to reinforce our commitment to SLS with the workforce. We discussed my recent announcement that NASA would consider all options to fly Orion around the Moon on schedule. I shared the analysis we conducted to asses flying the Orion on different commercial options. While some of these alternative vehicles could work, none was capable of achieving our goals to orbit around the Moon for Exploration Mission-1 within our timeline and on budget. The results of this two-week study reaffirmed our commitment to the SLS. More details will be released in the future.

“There’s a lot of excitement about our plans and also a lot of hard work and challenges ahead, but I know the NASA workforce and our partners are up to it. We are now looking at creative approaches to advance SLS manufacturing and testing to ensure Exploration Mission-1 launches in 2020. We will work to ensure we have a safe and reliable launch system that keeps its promise to the American people.

“I know NASA is ready for the challenge of moving forward to the Moon, this time to stay.”

To learn more about NASA’s Moon to Mars plans, visit:

https://www.nasa.gov/moon2mars

-end-
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Offline b0objunior

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #229 on: 03/29/2019 04:20 pm »
Seems like NASA will be testing the gateway prototypes to see what's best for astronaut. Can somebody explain what it means? They're saying the won't choose a winner to build the real deal, but wasn't that the whole point of NextSTEP?


Quote
March 27, 2019
NASA Begins Testing Habitation Prototypes

Over the next several months, NASA will conduct a series of ground tests inside five uniquely designed, full-size, deep space habitat prototypes. The mockups, constructed by five American companies, offer different perspectives on how astronauts will live and work aboard the Gateway – the first spaceship designed to stay in orbit around the Moon, providing the critical infrastructure needed for exploration, science and technology demonstrations on the lunar surface.

NASA doesn’t plan to select one habitat prototype to advance to flight – rather, the tests will help NASA evaluate the design standards, common interfaces, and requirements for a future U.S. Gateway habitat module, while reducing risks for eventual flight systems.

“These tests were formulated so that we can do a side-by-side comparison of very different and innovative concepts from U.S. industry,” said Marshall Smith, who leads human lunar exploration programs at NASA Headquarters in Washington. “While we won’t dictate a specific design when we procure the U.S. habitat, we will enter the procurement phase with far less risk because of the knowledge we gain from these tests.”

NASA assembled a team from across the agency and from U.S. industry to conduct these tests. Engineers and technicians will analyze habitat system capabilities and performance proposed by each prototype concept, while human factors teams consider layout and ergonomics to optimize efficiency and performance. During the tests, future Gateway flight operators at NASA’s Johnson Space Center in Houston will collect actual live telemetry streams from each prototype. Flight operators will monitor habitat performance and support realistic mission activities as astronauts conduct “day-in-the-life” procedures within each habitat prototype, providing their perspectives as potential crew members who may one day live and work aboard the Gateway.

In addition to the physical enclosure, each company has outfitted their prototype with the basic necessities to support humans during deep space expeditions—including environmental control and life support systems, avionics, sleeping quarters, exercise equipment, and communal areas.
 

The Prototypes

The NextSTEP Habitation effort began in 2015 with four companies completing year-long concept studies. Those studies set the foundation for prototype development from 2016-2018—this time with five companies submitting concepts. Their prototype approaches are listed below, as well as a concept study outline from a sixth company, NanoRacks:

Lockheed Martin – Testing at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center, Florida

The Lockheed Martin prototype is based on a Multi-Purpose Logistics Module (MPLM), which was originally designed to provide logistics capabilities for the International Space Station. The design leverages the capabilities of Lockheed’s robotic planetary spacecraft and the Orion capsule that will transport astronauts to and from the Gateway. The prototype includes a reconfigurable space that could support a variety of missions, and combines hardware prototyping and software simulation during the test.
NextSTEP Lockheed Martin
Concept image of Lockheed Martin’s Gateway concept featuring their habitat design.
Credits: Lockheed Martin

Northrop Grumman – Testing at NASA’s Johnson Space Center, Texas

Northrop Grumman’s prototype leverages the company’s Cygnus spacecraft that delivers supplies to the International Space Station. The Cygnus took its maiden flight in 2013, and is already human-rated. Northrop Grumman’s habitat mockup focuses on providing a comfortable, efficient living environment as well as different internal configuration possibilities.
 
NextSTEP Northrop Grumman
Concept image of Northrop Grumman’s Gateway concept featuring their habitat design.
Credits: Northrop Grumman

Boeing – Testing at NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama

Proven space station heritage hardware is the key ingredient in Boeing’s Exploration Habitat Demonstrator. Named the prime space station contractor in 1993, the company developed multiple space station elements. Their demonstrator will leverage heritage assets, with a focus on optimizing interior volume, with isolated areas offering the capability to use different atmospheres for payloads without impacting cabin atmosphere.
 
NextSTEP Boeing
Concept image Boeing’s Gateway concept featuring their habitat design.
Credits: Boeing

Sierra Nevada Corporation – Testing at NASA’s Johnson Space Center, Houston, Texas

Sierra Nevada’s Large Inflatable Fabric Environment (LIFE) habitat is designed to launch in a compact, “deflated” configuration, then inflate once it’s in space. The benefit of inflatables (also called expandables) is their final configuration is capable of providing much larger living space than traditional rigid structures, which are limited in size by the payload volume of the rocket used to launch it. The LIFE Prototype inflates to 27 ft in diameter and simulates three floors of living areas.
 
NextSTEP Sierra Nevada Corporation
Concept image of Sierra Nevada’s Gateway concept featuring their habitat design.
Credits: Sierra Nevada Corporation

Bigelow Aerospace – Testing at Bigelow Aerospace, North Las Vegas, Nevada

Bigelow’s B330 prototype is an expandable module that expands in space, as its name suggests, to provide 330 cubic meters of livable area. Bigelow sent a smaller module, the Bigelow Expandable Activity Module (BEAM) to the space station in 2015, where astronauts expanded the structure live on NASA Television with compressed air tanks. The BEAM completed a two-year demonstration aboard the station, proving soft-goods resilience to the harsh space environment. Following its demonstration period, NASA extended BEAM's time aboard the station to become a storage unit.
 
NextSTEP Bigelow Aerospace
Concept image Bigelow’s Gateway concept featuring their habitat design.
Credits: Bigelow Aerospace

NanoRacks – Concept Study

NanoRacks has proposed yet another concept to maximize habitable volume for Gateway astronauts. The company’s idea is to refurbish and repurpose a spent rocket propellant tank, leveraging the natural vacuum of space to flush the tank of residual propellants. The company completed a feasibility study outlining the concept and next plans to develop full-scale prototypes demonstrating robotics development, outfitting and systems integration to convert the tank into a deep space habitat.
 
NextSTEP NanoRacks
Concept image of NanoRack’s habitat concept docked to the International Space Station.
Credits: NanoRacks

Operational - Driven Engineering

“This prototyping approach allows us to design, build, test and refine the habitat long before the final flight version is developed,” said NASA astronaut Mike Gernhardt, principal investigator of the agency's habitation prototype test series. “We are using this operational-driven engineering approach to gain an early understanding of exactly what we need to address the mission, thereby reducing risk and cost."

Using this approach, the builders, operators, and future users of the Gateway work together to evaluate concepts earlier and more completely, which helps NASA move forward to the Moon as early as possible.

The Gateway will be a temporary home and office for astronauts farther in space than humans have ever been before, and will be a home base for astronaut expeditions on surface of the Moon, and for future human missions to Mars. The NextSTEP approach bolsters American leadership in space, and will help drive an open, sustainable and agile lunar architecture.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-begins-testing-habitation-prototypes/

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #230 on: 03/29/2019 04:38 pm »
Seems like NASA will be testing the gateway prototypes to see what's best for astronaut. Can somebody explain what it means? They're saying the won't choose a winner to build the real deal, but wasn't that the whole point of NextSTEP?


Quote
March 27, 2019
NASA Begins Testing Habitation Prototypes

Over the next several months, NASA will conduct a series of ground tests inside five uniquely designed, full-size, deep space habitat prototypes. The mockups, constructed by five American companies, offer different perspectives on how astronauts will live and work aboard the Gateway – the first spaceship designed to stay in orbit around the Moon, providing the critical infrastructure needed for exploration, science and technology demonstrations on the lunar surface.

NASA doesn’t plan to select one habitat prototype to advance to flight – rather, the tests will help NASA evaluate the design standards, common interfaces, and requirements for a future U.S. Gateway habitat module, while reducing risks for eventual flight systems.

“These tests were formulated so that we can do a side-by-side comparison of very different and innovative concepts from U.S. industry,” said Marshall Smith, who leads human lunar exploration programs at NASA Headquarters in Washington. “While we won’t dictate a specific design when we procure the U.S. habitat, we will enter the procurement phase with far less risk because of the knowledge we gain from these tests.”

*snip*

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-begins-testing-habitation-prototypes/

NextSTEP is a program to develop technology for human spaceflight / deep space missions. It's not specifically tied to the Gateway, but rather, at least when the program was started, to enable the future Journey to Mars. When all the testing is done, I would expect that NASA will select a couple of these companies for a more detailed design study for the Gateway, then select one to actually build the habitation module.

That said, NASA's really in a state of flux right now. I don't know if anyone is sure what will be funded next year. Gateway might be dramatically scaled back or defunded in favor of a lunar landing.
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Online theinternetftw

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #231 on: 04/02/2019 03:25 am »
A quick quote from the recent Bridentstine town hall:

Quote
Certain things will have to be descoped.

We're not building the International Space Station around the moon, as many people would love to do. That's not what we're doing here.

« Last Edit: 04/02/2019 03:25 am by theinternetftw »

Offline b0objunior

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #232 on: 04/03/2019 05:10 pm »
I'm not sure insulting people is the way to go... can the mod do something?

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #233 on: 04/03/2019 06:10 pm »
I'm not sure insulting people is the way to go... can the mod do something?

Concur. Post in question removed. The person who lost their post will appreciate why, per a previous action they requested on different person's undesired actions.
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Offline spacenut

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #234 on: 04/03/2019 06:10 pm »
I still think an LL1 or LL2 outpost would be better.  It would be easier to access from earth launch, a little harder for lunar lander.  However, from earth takes a larger rocket and larger amount of fuel.  From lunar surface not as much.  Most existing rockets can reach LL1 from earth with a larger payload than trying to get from earth to low lunar orbit. 

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #235 on: 04/05/2019 06:55 pm »
A quick quote from the recent Bridentstine town hall:

Quote
Certain things will have to be descoped.

We're not building the International Space Station around the moon, as many people would love to do. That's not what we're doing here.

I think the Gateway is a good idea in principle.  This 73 ton artifact theoretically requires about six SLS launches, along with a number of commercial launches, per the oracle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Orbital_Platform-Gateway

"Various components of the Gateway would be launched on commercial launch vehicles and on the Space Launch System as Orion co-manifested payloads on the flights EM-3 through EM-8."

No metal has been bent, and six SLS's are not available on any official timeline.  Then there's the lander and the ascent vehicle, yada yada, none of which is ready to go, unless the commercial interests are way further along than is generally publicly known. 

It is hard to think that this is all happening on Trump's short schedule.
« Last Edit: 04/05/2019 07:00 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Slarty1080

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #236 on: 04/05/2019 10:48 pm »
Please Mr Musk how quickly could you beef up the Falcon Heavy and what lift capability might we be able to expect in the near future if you did? Ok so lets see if we can make the LOPG modules fit...
My optimistic hope is that it will become cool to really think about things... rather than just doing reactive bullsh*t based on no knowledge (Brian Cox)

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #237 on: 04/06/2019 12:37 am »
Please Mr Musk how quickly could you beef up the Falcon Heavy and what lift capability might we be able to expect in the near future if you did? Ok so lets see if we can make the LOPG modules fit...

Currently the LOP-G modules are sent lunar orbit and attached by using the Orion as a tug. Something(s) else will be needed to do the same job if SLS and Orion are not available.

Offline Slarty1080

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #238 on: 04/06/2019 12:59 am »
Please Mr Musk how quickly could you beef up the Falcon Heavy and what lift capability might we be able to expect in the near future if you did? Ok so lets see if we can make the LOPG modules fit...

Currently the LOP-G modules are sent lunar orbit and attached by using the Orion as a tug. Something(s) else will be needed to do the same job if SLS and Orion are not available.
Isn't a space tug just another name for a space based booster rocket? If not what's the difference? What additional kit would be required beyond an uprated FH with a smallish hypergolic boost stage and appropriately mass matched LOP-G modules? No doubt there are things but what?
My optimistic hope is that it will become cool to really think about things... rather than just doing reactive bullsh*t based on no knowledge (Brian Cox)

Offline spacenut

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Re: Lunar Gateway Debate
« Reply #239 on: 04/06/2019 02:34 am »
Building the lunar gateway with SLS is not going to get the job done.  Most modules will have to be taken there by smaller launchers using tugs, Falcon Heavy, or New Glenn, at least until Starship is operational.  SLS is just too expensive, especially for launching unmanned components. 

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