Author Topic: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane  (Read 42064 times)

Offline archipeppe68

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Here it is.

Ciao
Giuseppe

Online BrightLight

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Outstanding - thank you Giuseppe

Online BrightLight

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Observation on the drawings - on#20 the "front view" is actually the "Rear view", and the occupants/astronauts are facing backwards

Offline archipeppe68

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Observation on the drawings - on#20 the "front view" is actually the "Rear view", and the occupants/astronauts are facing backwards

Many Thanks BrightLight, I miss such information.

BTW I have a question: I suppose that pilot and co-pilot are facing through the windows while the other ones are facing backwards, is it correct?

Offline hkultala

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Observation on the drawings - on#20 the "front view" is actually the "Rear view", and the occupants/astronauts are facing backwards

Many Thanks BrightLight, I miss such information.

BTW I have a question: I suppose that pilot and co-pilot are facing through the windows while the other ones are facing backwards, is it correct?

I think you completely misunderstood what he meant.

He just said one of your your picture has a wrong title.

Offline corgius

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Observation on the drawings - on#20 the "front view" is actually the "Rear view", and the occupants/astronauts are facing backwards

in my opinion, you are wrong.

in picture n. 20, the Dream Chaser, by my point of view, is cutted between the second and the third row of seats, and then viewed front side.

ciao

peppe

Offline archipeppe68

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Observation on the drawings - on#20 the "front view" is actually the "Rear view", and the occupants/astronauts are facing backwards

in my opinion, you are wrong.

in picture n. 20, the Dream Chaser, by my point of view, is cutted between the second and the third row of seats, and then viewed front side.

ciao

peppe

So, let me made up my mind.

Corgius has taken my point, Slide 20 view is correct.

I cut (ideally, of course) the DC looking backward (from front to back, I mean) so the view is correct (by drawing point of view).


Online BrightLight

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Observation on the drawings - on#20 the "front view" is actually the "Rear view", and the occupants/astronauts are facing backwards

in my opinion, you are wrong.

in picture n. 20, the Dream Chaser, by my point of view, is cutted between the second and the third row of seats, and then viewed front side.

ciao

peppe

So, let me made up my mind.

Corgius has taken my point, Slide 20 view is correct.

I cut (ideally, of course) the DC looking backward (from front to back, I mean) so the view is correct (by drawing point of view).

As I see it, the image says "Front View" but the view is of the rear of the DC, further the occupants are facing the rear of DC, but the other views show the occupants facing forward, towards the front of the vehicle.
Regardless, your work is excellent.

Offline manboy

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Here it is.

Ciao
Giuseppe
Very cool but the seats on both the HL-20 and DreamChaser are spaced further apart to create a very narrow aisle between the two groups to allow the crew to exit through the rear of the craft.
« Last Edit: 11/20/2012 06:46 pm by manboy »
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Online BrightLight

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Here it is.

Ciao
Giuseppe
Very cool but the seats on both the HL-20 and DreamChaser are spaced further apart to create a very narrow aisle between the two groups to allow the crew to exit through the rear of the craft.
Point of clarity - is this a HL-20 mock-up or a Dream Chaser mock-up.

Offline manboy

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Here it is.

Ciao
Giuseppe
Very cool but the seats on both the HL-20 and DreamChaser are spaced further apart to create a very narrow aisle between the two groups to allow the crew to exit through the rear of the craft.
Point of clarity - is this a HL-20 mock-up or a Dream Chaser mock-up.
Both. It was originally built around 1990 as the HL-20 mock-up. In June 2006, NASA Langley removed it from storage, resembled it and shipped it to Space Dev (which is now owned by Sierra Nevada). There it was used as the Dream Chaser mock-up. The picture I posted above was taken in July 2006 and so was this one.
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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In June 2006, NASA Langley removed it from storage, resembled it and shipped it to Space Dev (which is now owned by Sierra Nevada).

Wrong, the HL-20 was displayed at the Virginia Air and Space Museum fully assembled, it was not in storage or in pieces. I witnessed it there quite often. The Virginia Air and Space Museum is also the Visitor's center for LaRC.
« Last Edit: 11/21/2012 01:16 am by Ronsmytheiii »

Offline Rocket Science

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In June 2006, NASA Langley removed it from storage, resembled it and shipped it to Space Dev (which is now owned by Sierra Nevada).

Wrong, the HL-20 was displayed at the Virginia Air and Space Museum fully assembled, it was not in storage or in pieces. I witnessed it there quite often. The Virginia Air and Space Museum is also the Visitor's center for LaRC.
Ron is right... ;)
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline manboy

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In June 2006, NASA Langley removed it from storage, resembled it and shipped it to Space Dev (which is now owned by Sierra Nevada).

Wrong, the HL-20 was displayed at the Virginia Air and Space Museum fully assembled, it was not in storage or in pieces. I witnessed it there quite often. The Virginia Air and Space Museum is also the Visitor's center for LaRC.
Than what's going on here?  ???

http://archive.org/search.php?query=HL-20%20Full%20Scale%20Mockup%20Loading%20and%20Transport
« Last Edit: 11/21/2012 02:58 am by manboy »
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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In June 2006, NASA Langley removed it from storage, resembled it and shipped it to Space Dev (which is now owned by Sierra Nevada).

Wrong, the HL-20 was displayed at the Virginia Air and Space Museum fully assembled, it was not in storage or in pieces. I witnessed it there quite often. The Virginia Air and Space Museum is also the Visitor's center for LaRC.
Than what's going on here?  ???

http://archive.org/search.php?query=HL-20%20Full%20Scale%20Mockup%20Loading%20and%20Transport

Disassembly for transport.

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Very cool! Never knew about the HL-42. Learned something new today, thanks!

Offline Khadgars

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Very cool.  Just curious for people's opinion, but what are the chances that Dream Chaser actually makes it to crewed flights?
Evil triumphs when good men do nothing - Thomas Jefferson

Offline manboy

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Very cool.  Just curious for people's opinion, but what are the chances that Dream Chaser actually makes it to crewed flights?
Various sources have stated that there will likely only one provider chosen to deliver crew and erioladastra has stated that Dream Chaser is behind Beoing and SpaceX.
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline Patchouli

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Various sources have stated that there will likely only one provider chosen to deliver crew and erioladastra has stated that Dream Chaser is behind Beoing and SpaceX.

Having a single provider would defeat the biggest advantage of commercial crew which is redundancy.

It should be noted Dream Chaser's method of decent and landing is well tested the same cannot be said for Spacex's chosen method for the crewed version of their vehicle.

Offline manboy

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Various sources have stated that there will likely only one provider chosen to deliver crew and erioladastra has stated that Dream Chaser is behind Beoing and SpaceX.

Having a single provider would defeat the biggest advantage of commercial crew which is redundancy.

It should be noted Dream Chaser's method of decent and landing is well tested the same cannot be said for Spacex's chosen method for the crewed version of their vehicle.

I'm not defending the downselect or criticizing the Dream Chaser design. Anyway this isn't the best topic to discuss this.
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline GClark

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Giuseppe,

First of all, thank you for this.  Very well done.

A couple of suggestions:

1 - On slide 6, the school should be NC A&T (North Carolina A&T).

2 - I noticed you did not include either the origin of Spiral, the Tsybin PKA, or the sub-scale BOR-1, -2, -3, or -6?

V/R,

Offline archipeppe68

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Thanks a lot for your suggestions GClark.

1 - I take a note on this, find out info about the famous HL-20 was quite difficult and I misunderstood the University name, my bad..

2 - I was tempeted to include the whole Spiral development family, but it lead to a too much complex slide, even graphically, so I choose to left behind those information since I reputed they were slightly off topic (regarding the HL-20/Dream Chaser development history).

Anyway thanks again.

Ciao
Giuseppe

Giuseppe,

First of all, thank you for this.  Very well done.

A couple of suggestions:

1 - On slide 6, the school should be NC A&T (North Carolina A&T).

2 - I noticed you did not include either the origin of Spiral, the Tsybin PKA, or the sub-scale BOR-1, -2, -3, or -6?

V/R,


Offline GClark

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I understand.  It is quite the development tree, to be sure.

I live in Southeastern Virginia and I'd never heard of NC A&T either until I read about the HL-20 test article.

As I said, very nice work.  Much appreciated.

Offline john smith 19

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Having a single provider would defeat the biggest advantage of commercial crew which is redundancy.

I think the competition between 3 providers may have been quite helpful as well.  :)

However just because going single provider would defeat that advantage does not mean is not how it will end up.

Decision making has not always been sensible.  :(

But to return to topic...
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¨cheap

Offline yg1968

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Very cool.  Just curious for people's opinion, but what are the chances that Dream Chaser actually makes it to crewed flights?
Various sources have stated that there will likely only one provider chosen to deliver crew and erioladastra has stated that Dream Chaser is behind Beoing and SpaceX.

Actually, NASA has left open the possibility of certifying two commercial crew systems even if they end up using only one of them for CTS.
« Last Edit: 01/04/2013 11:06 pm by yg1968 »

Offline Rocket Science

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Let's not forget about the little known "Yellowbird" that very few people  ever write about. I see it as the beginning of the concept for a reusable taxi to an orbital space station.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=27178.0
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline archipeppe68

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Here it is the updated slide 8 since I've done a couple of errors (LaRC not DFRC while it was developed in 1993 rather than 1997).

I wanna thanks Dr. Ted Talay to allow me correcting the HL-42 infos.


Ciao
Giuseppe
« Last Edit: 05/19/2013 11:13 am by archipeppe68 »

Offline Lobo

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Here it is the updated slide 8 since I've done a couple of errors (LaRC not DFRC while it was developed in 1993 rather than 1997).

I wanna thanks Dr. Ted Talay to allow me correcting the HL-42 infos.


Ciao
Giuseppe


Yea, be interesting to think about an alternative history where HL-20, and then HL-42 was developed to fly axially on some type of ELV, specifically to service a space station.
Would have been a much more moderate first stab at reusability and space planes than going from Apollo to the Shuttle.


Offline archipeppe68

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Yea, be interesting to think about an alternative history where HL-20, and then HL-42 was developed to fly axially on some type of ELV, specifically to service a space station.
Would have been a much more moderate first stab at reusability and space planes than going from Apollo to the Shuttle.


I agree.

If HL-20/42 would put into service, Shuttle would be retired earlier. No Columbia loss and for sure HL-42 would be in service still today.
 
As side effect no gap between Shuttle retirement and next commercial crew service and also no U.S. need for Soyuz seats (which cost so much!!). Probably HL-42 would also serve as lifeboat instead of the planned X-38 and instead of the current Soyuz capsules.

Offline CitabriaFlyer

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Much has been made about Dream Chaser's advantages in terms of being able to land at a benign environment on many runways around the world but I have not read anything about its performance during a boost phase.  In the event of an engine shutdown during the boost phase does Dream Chaser have a better chance of getting to an East Coast runway and NOT dumping the crew into the North Atlantic?

Offline JBF

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Much has been made about Dream Chaser's advantages in terms of being able to land at a benign environment on many runways around the world but I have not read anything about its performance during a boost phase.  In the event of an engine shutdown during the boost phase does Dream Chaser have a better chance of getting to an East Coast runway and NOT dumping the crew into the North Atlantic?

It has been studied with the HL-20. Do a search on "Launch pad abort of the HL-20 lifting body"  I can't seem to find a copy available for free. Anyone have a real link?

"In principle, rocket engines are simple, but thatís the last place rocket engines are ever simple." Jeff Bezos

Offline Danderman

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SpaceDev is mentioned briefly in this discussion, but I suspect that most people have no idea about SpaceDevís role in reviving the HL-20.

Offline woods170

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SpaceDev is mentioned briefly in this discussion, but I suspect that most people have no idea about SpaceDevís role in reviving the HL-20.

That is because Dream Chaser kinda "flew under the radar" until it entered CCDev1 in 2010. Prior to that it competed in round 1 of COTS, even making it into the group of six finalists, but was ultimately not selected for a funded SAA (those went to SpaceX and Kistler). The unfunded SAA which SpaceDev (later SNC) had with NASA - under COTS - eventually morphed into Dream Chaser's entry into CCP in 2010.

Interesting history of the HL-20 / Dream Chaser concept:

HL-20: Crew

morphed into

Dream Chaser: Cargo (COTS/CRS-1)

morphed into

Dream Chaser: Crew (CCP)

morphed into

Dream Chaser: Cargo (CRS-2)

IMO if there is any one word to describe the Dream Chaser history it is "persistence".
Another description to fit would be "flipping the coin".
« Last Edit: 12/28/2020 06:59 am by woods170 »

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