Author Topic: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine  (Read 1149090 times)

Offline Nomic

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #160 on: 01/31/2017 09:59 am »
Cant remember seeing the pictures of the turbopumps before, reverse image shows they have been around since September 2015 for the frosted image (picture of the whole test stand), February last year for the un-frosted.

Might be reading to much into it, but those pictures looks more like the design form the original announcement with ULA, turbopump along the top, rather than down the side. Wonder if there has been a redesign somewhere along the way, though it would be more surprising if they didn't have to make some significant changes along the way.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #161 on: 03/06/2017 01:11 pm »
Ninja'd in updates thread:

@JeffBezos  15m15 minutes ago

 1st BE-4 engine fully assembled. 2nd and 3rd following close behind. #GradatimFerociter

@JeffBezos  11m11 minutes ago

 Here’s one more shot of BE-4 in its transport cradle.

Edit: for the record here are the links

https://twitter.com/jeffbezos/status/838748139964272640
https://twitter.com/jeffbezos/status/838748973598900225
« Last Edit: 03/06/2017 01:40 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #162 on: 03/06/2017 01:27 pm »
In response to Jeff Bezos' tweets:

Quote
Good looking engine. Looking forward to seeing its hot fire performance
https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/838751831262113793

Quote
@torybruno Do you know when this is planned?
https://twitter.com/tobiasvdb/status/838752089597755392

Quote
@TobiasVdb very soon
https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/838754433668362240

Quote
BE4 is the primary path to replace the Atlas' Russian RD180. Looking good
https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/838755076449701892

Offline AncientU

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #163 on: 03/06/2017 07:38 pm »
In response to Jeff Bezos' tweets:

...

Quote
BE4 is the primary path to replace the Atlas' Russian RD180. Looking good
https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/838755076449701892

Primary path... doesn't sound too good for the AR-1.
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
-- SpaceX friend of mlindner

Online ugordan

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #164 on: 03/06/2017 07:40 pm »
doesn't sound too good for the AR-1.

It never did.

Online edkyle99

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #165 on: 03/06/2017 08:30 pm »
In response to Jeff Bezos' tweets:

...

Quote
BE4 is the primary path to replace the Atlas' Russian RD180. Looking good
https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/838755076449701892

Primary path... doesn't sound too good for the AR-1.
BE-4 was always the preferred choice for Vulcan, but the real decision will be made by the hardware when they fire these things up.  Staged combustion development testing has historically resulted in hair-pulling frustration. 

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 03/06/2017 08:31 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline yokem55

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #166 on: 03/06/2017 08:34 pm »
The engine looks physically quite large compared to the notional size of the full powered Raptor. Quite curious about what this guy's TWR is...

Online HVM

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #167 on: 03/06/2017 09:19 pm »
Coz RD-180 is same size and have similar thrust as BE-4. It's the Raptor which is odd one here.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #168 on: 03/06/2017 09:32 pm »
In response to Jeff Bezos' tweets:

...

Quote
BE4 is the primary path to replace the Atlas' Russian RD180. Looking good
https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/838755076449701892

Primary path... doesn't sound too good for the AR-1.

BE-4 was always the preferred choice for Vulcan, but the real decision will be made by the hardware when they fire these things up.

Methalox appears to be more compatible with simulations than kerolox and hydrolox ever were.

Looking very likely that the race to second successful large scale firing will be won by BE-4 after Raptor. By all accounts, AR-1 is still a year plus behind full scale. Not sure if they even have a test stand for it.

And this one is full scale, unlike Raptor's slightly subscale.

Quote
Staged combustion development testing has historically resulted in hair-pulling frustration. 

Three examples here Ed. I'll bet that the last one will take the longest to make it though start up sequencing.

You'll note that we are quite aways away from a full power, full duration burn on any of them.

add:
Oh and congratulations to Blue Origin on the fine engine - it will look even better on your test stand, in operation, which I earnestly hope will go well. Looking forward to your welcome to the methalox propulsion club.

Bet a cup of coffee that they'll have a half minute plus burn before June. Anyone want to bet against that?
« Last Edit: 03/06/2017 10:15 pm by Space Ghost 1962 »

Offline Davidthefat

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #169 on: 03/07/2017 07:11 am »
Bet a cup of coffee that they'll have a half minute plus burn before June. Anyone want to bet against that?

I'll bet you on that.

Offline WindnWar

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #170 on: 03/07/2017 01:16 pm »
The engine looks physically quite large compared to the notional size of the full powered Raptor. Quite curious about what this guy's TWR is...

The specs for the chamber pressure is only about 30% higher than a gas generator engine like Merlin or RS-68A, so if anything it will likely have a worse thrust to weight ratio than RD-180 has of 77 to 1. Can't know for sure till the specs are released though. On the other hand if the specs are based on a very conservative initial version, they probably have room to raise its performance over time.

Too much guessing at this stage though.

Offline GWH

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #171 on: 03/07/2017 01:24 pm »
Does the nozzle on the vac variant seem small to anyone else?

EDIT: Screen grab and very basic scaling of the video.  Referencing 7m stage diameter gives approx 3.2m diameter nozzle.  Shot in the dark guess on the 1st stage variant posted is that it's at least 2m?
« Last Edit: 03/07/2017 02:59 pm by GWH »

Online PahTo

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #172 on: 03/07/2017 02:13 pm »
Does the nozzle on the vac variant seem small to anyone else?

BE-4 is a booster engine.

Offline Navier–Stokes

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #173 on: 03/07/2017 02:24 pm »
Does the nozzle on the vac variant seem small to anyone else?

BE-4 is a booster engine.
GWH is correct, New Glenn's second stage uses a vacuum-optimized BE-4 (the optional third stage uses a vacuum-optimized BE-3).

Quote
The 2-stage New Glenn is 270 feet tall, and its second stage is powered by a single vacuum-optimized BE-4 engine. The 3-stage New Glenn is 313 feet tall. A single vacuum-optimized BE-3 engine, burning liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen, powers its third stage. The booster and the second stage are identical in both variants.
« Last Edit: 03/07/2017 02:27 pm by Navier–Stokes »

Online Prettz

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #174 on: 03/07/2017 09:26 pm »
Methalox appears to be more compatible with simulations than kerolox and hydrolox ever were.
I'm curious why methalox would be easier to simulate than hydrolox. Hydrogen combustion is vastly simpler, isn't it?

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #175 on: 03/08/2017 12:17 am »
Methalox appears to be more compatible with simulations than kerolox and hydrolox ever were.
I'm curious why methalox would be easier to simulate than hydrolox. Hydrogen combustion is vastly simpler, isn't it?
Note highlighting. Not chemistry. Kinetics. Something to do with decomposition. Don't understand it myself.

Offline Rocket Surgeon

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #176 on: 03/08/2017 12:20 am »
Methalox appears to be more compatible with simulations than kerolox and hydrolox ever were.
I'm curious why methalox would be easier to simulate than hydrolox. Hydrogen combustion is vastly simpler, isn't it?

I'm not sure but I think it's because, scientifically speaking, hydrogen is a pain in the ass and just likes to be different...

Offline Port

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #177 on: 03/08/2017 12:51 am »
Methalox appears to be more compatible with simulations than kerolox and hydrolox ever were.
I'm curious why methalox would be easier to simulate than hydrolox. Hydrogen combustion is vastly simpler, isn't it?

I'm not sure but I think it's because, scientifically speaking, hydrogen is a pain in the ass and just likes to be different...

Nobody said that hydrolox would be more complex to simlulate, i'm pretty sure that the opposite could very well be the case.
Only problem that i could see is that hydrogen tends to tunnel, also energetically speaking through reaction-energy potentials - this can however be calculated beforehand through more sofisticated dft-methods (or some sort thereof)

Whatever happens when hydrogen is combusted also happens when methane is combusted and then some (actually some huge stuff more due to the bonding-complexity of carbon).
There was a talk on how SpX uses simulation and they literally calculate every possible reaction, intermediate, sidereaction and so on - the CH4+O2 system has way north of 50 possible reaction mechanisms that take place between CH4+3 O2 -> 2 H2O+CO2 and this is what makes it really hard to accurately calculate.

The H2+O2 System is arguably much simpler, there are some radical-paths, mainly over HOO*, OH*- and the likes but nothing out of the super-ordinary.

complex carbon molecules are a whole other story, the complexity from the source materials alone is mindboggeling, the number of possible combinations should go something completely ridiculous potentiated with number of variable species, number of atoms, number of different atoms, number of possible radicals, then there is the problem that there are aromatic species involved and so on and so on, it's outright impossible to calculate as a first-order guess on my part
« Last Edit: 03/08/2017 12:53 am by Port »

Offline savuporo

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Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #179 on: 03/10/2017 03:18 am »
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/03/blue-origins-new-engine-isnt-good-enough-for-some-congressmen/

I think that belongs in the space policy section - its politics, not about the technical merits of one engine vs another.

 

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