Would they have used the Agena (then also under early development) as a basis for the spaceframe,
have you read "Ignition!: An Informal History Of Liquid Rocket Propellants" by John D. Clark? Long out-of-print but there are PDF versions floating around. Quite entertaining. I don't know if I can post a link, let me know or just google it.PS... EVERYTHING is hypergolic with fluorine!
Thanks, guys! Sounds like this was a generalized "fluorine is the future!" bit of babble, and not any kind of well-thought-out rocket stage. Certainly not at the point where any design engineering had been done.Just wanted to check...
Why do I have a feeling Fluorine was one of those items that "blew the place to smithereens".
”It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals-steel, copper, aluminium, etc.-because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminium keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.”
Sure, but there were some far more hilarious things that were tried. Chlorine Trifluoride (CIF3) comes to mind...Makes pure Fluorine look positively tame. As described in Ignition! :Quote”It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals-steel, copper, aluminium, etc.-because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminium keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.”
Quote from: Jarnis on 09/11/2015 07:11 pmSure, but there were some far more hilarious things that were tried. Chlorine Trifluoride (CIF3) comes to mind...Makes pure Fluorine look positively tame. As described in Ignition! :Quote”It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals-steel, copper, aluminium, etc.-because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminium keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.”What's funny and probably scary if you think about it too much is the compound is often used in the semi conductor industry to clean CVD chambers.
Quote from: Patchouli on 09/11/2015 11:46 pmQuote from: Jarnis on 09/11/2015 07:11 pmSure, but there were some far more hilarious things that were tried. Chlorine Trifluoride (CIF3) comes to mind...Makes pure Fluorine look positively tame. As described in Ignition! :Quote”It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals-steel, copper, aluminium, etc.-because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminium keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.”What's funny and probably scary if you think about it too much is the compound is often used in the semi conductor industry to clean CVD chambers.... and fluorides are added to your drinking water to harden the enamel of your teeth. Go figure!
... and fluorides are added to your drinking water to harden the enamel of your teeth. Go figure!
Quote from: DMeader on 09/12/2015 11:22 pm... and fluorides are added to your drinking water to harden the enamel of your teeth. Go figure!Big difference between fluoride (ion/ionic compound) and fluorine (elemental fluorine gas) ... or fluorine-other halogen compounds like ClF3 and ClF5.Similarly, chloride ion is found in table salt but chlorine gas is very corrosive & toxic.
Refering back to classics http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/things_i_wont_work_with/And specificallyhttp://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2012/02/28/one_does_not_simply_walk_into_fluorine_chemistry.php
However, in February 1977 the Soviet government canceled the program, just as the RD-301 was getting ready for integrated test firings with the upper stage.
For those interested, I wrote a lengthy history of the Soviet fluorine effort for Quest magazine, Vol. 21 nr. 4 (2014) ("The Development of Fluorine-Based Engines in the USSR").
No. Really, no.
Fluorine is one of the few oxidizing elements more potent than oxygen itself; which in turn means it's a horrible, horrible, horrible chemical to work with. Hydrazine and its kin are dangerous enough, but fluorine is a step above them. So, to quote Bob Shaw before...Quote from: Bob Shaw on 09/27/2015 01:26 amNo. Really, no.
Quote from: redliox on 09/27/2015 01:36 amFluorine is one of the few oxidizing elements more potent than oxygen itself; which in turn means it's a horrible, horrible, horrible chemical to work with. Hydrazine and its kin are dangerous enough, but fluorine is a step above them. So, to quote Bob Shaw before...Quote from: Bob Shaw on 09/27/2015 01:26 amNo. Really, no.So, what we can take for all this is:What doesn't react with fluorine?
Quote from: MattMason on 09/30/2015 10:38 pmQuote from: redliox on 09/27/2015 01:36 amFluorine is one of the few oxidizing elements more potent than oxygen itself; which in turn means it's a horrible, horrible, horrible chemical to work with. Hydrazine and its kin are dangerous enough, but fluorine is a step above them. So, to quote Bob Shaw before...Quote from: Bob Shaw on 09/27/2015 01:26 amNo. Really, no.So, what we can take for all this is:What doesn't react with fluorine?Not much:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorine#Noble_gases
What doesn't react with fluorine?
Well, it seems that Valentin Glushko figured that out pretty well, seeing as he put two decades into building working fluorine engines. If he didnt, Soviets would have perhaps stood a better chance of actually getting anywhere close to the moon, if Glushko focused on LOX/LH2 instead