Author Topic: Ares V with RD-180  (Read 9221 times)

Offline gladiator1332

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2431
  • Fort Myers, FL
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 6
Ares V with RD-180
« on: 03/29/2009 10:56 pm »
I know there has been discussion on switching Ares V to SSME, but how would the numbers look on an RD-180 powered core?
How many RD-180s would be ideal? Could we go back to the 8.4m core and the 5 seg boosters?


Offline Lee Jay

  • Elite Veteran
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8566
  • Liked: 3603
  • Likes Given: 327
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #1 on: 03/29/2009 11:10 pm »
It uses the wrong fuel for the core.  You'd have to start from scratch.

Offline gladiator1332

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2431
  • Fort Myers, FL
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 6
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #2 on: 03/30/2009 12:03 am »
So really it would be an Atlas Phase 2 with SRBs

Offline EE Scott

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Liked: 74
  • Likes Given: 356
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #3 on: 03/30/2009 12:43 am »
So really it would be an Atlas Phase 2 with SRBs

When you say SRBs are you talking about the shuttle's SRBs?  If so, we probably need to remember that they really need to be connected to a specific minimum mass amount (and distribution) to mitigate thrust oscillation - strapping a couple of shuttle SRBs onto anything less than a shuttle tank-sized structure would raise a lot of TO bogeys, probably making development a mess.  I would think Atlas Phase 2 (or Phase 3B) would not match up well with the shuttle's SRBs.
« Last Edit: 03/30/2009 12:44 am by EE Scott »
Scott

Offline mmeijeri

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7772
  • Martijn Meijering
  • NL
  • Liked: 397
  • Likes Given: 822
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #4 on: 03/30/2009 01:08 am »
When you say SRBs are you talking about the shuttle's SRBs?  If so, we probably need to remember that they really need to be connected to a specific minimum mass amount (and distribution) to mitigate thrust oscillation - strapping a couple of shuttle SRBs onto anything less than a shuttle tank-sized structure would raise a lot of TO bogeys, probably making development a mess.  I would think Atlas Phase 2 (or Phase 3B) would not match up well with the shuttle's SRBs.

Is TO only a problem for launching crew or for cargo as well?
Pro-tip: you don't have to be a jerk if someone doesn't agree with your theories

Offline EE Scott

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Liked: 74
  • Likes Given: 356
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #5 on: 03/30/2009 01:16 am »
I would assume that all the delicate equipment that is labeled as cargo would not want to be shaken too much more than people would.  If they would have to start designing extra margins into Altair, etc. due to possible high g oscillations during launch, that might start not being worth it very quickly.  My assumption could be wrong, though.
Scott

Offline Herb Schaltegger

Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #6 on: 03/30/2009 01:57 am »
Is TO only a problem for launching crew or for cargo as well?

TO is an inherent characteristic of solid rocket motors.  STS has thrust oscillation effects as well, but because there are two SRB connected to one another via a transverse thrust beam running through the ET, the loads are dampened considerably: the whole stack acts somewhat as a mass-spring system, substantially lessening the effects on on the crew and cargo.

Ares 1 has such serious problems precisely because there is no corresponding dampening system built into the entire stack; the oscillations are transmitted straight up through the interstage to everything above it.  All of the various kludges being Rube Goldberged onto Ares 1 to deal with the problems have negative impacts on launch mass and structural strength.
Ad astra per aspirin ...

Offline mmeijeri

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7772
  • Martijn Meijering
  • NL
  • Liked: 397
  • Likes Given: 822
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #7 on: 03/30/2009 02:03 am »
Ares 1 has such serious problems precisely because there is no corresponding dampening system built into the entire stack; the oscillations are transmitted straight up through the interstage to everything above it.  All of the various kludges being Rube Goldberged onto Ares 1 to deal with the problems have negative impacts on launch mass and structural strength.

The reason I asked is because I wondered if anything of value could be salvaged from Ares I if it were cancelled. Could it be turned into a small cargo launcher? Or perhaps only a propellant launcher? Would using a denser hypergolic upper stage help reduce the TO problems? One of Ares I's more interesting nicknames is "the paint mixer". Propellant might not mind the mixing as much as humans or electronics.

My guess is that it would not be economical, maybe not even possible, but it would be nice to hear a professional opinion.
Pro-tip: you don't have to be a jerk if someone doesn't agree with your theories

Offline Danny Dot

  • Rocket Scientist, NOT Retired
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2792
  • Houston, Texas
  • Liked: 17
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #8 on: 03/30/2009 02:04 am »
Is TO only a problem for launching crew or for cargo as well?

TO is an inherent characteristic of solid rocket motors.  STS has thrust oscillation effects as well, but because there are two SRB connected to one another via a transverse thrust beam running through the ET, the loads are dampened considerably: the whole stack acts somewhat as a mass-spring system, substantially lessening the effects on on the crew and cargo.

Ares 1 has such serious problems precisely because there is no corresponding dampening system built into the entire stack; the oscillations are transmitted straight up through the interstage to everything above it.  All of the various kludges being Rube Goldberged onto Ares 1 to deal with the problems have negative impacts on launch mass and structural strength.

Now the question is, why did it take NASA management so long to know this problem is inherent in ALL SRB designs?  It wasn't because a lack of interface between high level NASA management and SRB engineers.  I would like to know when the NASA decision makers knew the stick would kill the astronauts if TO was not mitigated? 

Danny Deger
Danny Deger

Offline kraisee

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10560
  • Liked: 807
  • Likes Given: 40
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #9 on: 03/30/2009 03:27 am »
What I find most curious, is why ATK didn't seem to know...

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
-Robert A. Heinlein

Offline Lee Jay

  • Elite Veteran
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8566
  • Liked: 3603
  • Likes Given: 327
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #10 on: 03/30/2009 03:39 am »
The reason I asked is because I wondered if anything of value could be salvaged from Ares I if it were cancelled.

The most important thing to salvage under such a scenario would end up in Engineering Management textbooks.

Offline Danny Dot

  • Rocket Scientist, NOT Retired
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2792
  • Houston, Texas
  • Liked: 17
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #11 on: 03/30/2009 03:51 am »
What I find most curious, is why ATK didn't seem to know...

Ross.

I have no doubt there were MANY at ATK screaming at the top of their lungs "YOU CAN'T PUT A PERSON ON TOP OF AN SRB -- THE THRUST OSCILLATION WILL KILL THEM!!  CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL NASA TO STOP THIS MADNESS BEFORE THEY KILL SOMEONE?"

Danny Deger
Danny Deger

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37441
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21451
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #12 on: 03/30/2009 04:27 am »

The reason I asked is because I wondered if anything of value could be salvaged from Ares I if it were cancelled. Could it be turned into a small cargo launcher? Or perhaps only a propellant launcher? Would using a denser hypergolic upper stage help reduce the TO problems? One of Ares I's more interesting nicknames is "the paint mixer". Propellant might not mind the mixing as much as humans or electronics.

My guess is that it would not be economical, maybe not even possible, but it would be nice to hear a professional opinion.

No, because there are two existing systems that already have the same capability and NASA doesn't need to duplicate them.  Also NASA can't develop Ares I for such task because NASA has to use commercial vehicles

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37441
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21451
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #13 on: 03/30/2009 04:29 am »
What I find most curious, is why ATK didn't seem to know...

Ross.

I have no doubt there were MANY at ATK screaming at the top of their lungs "YOU CAN'T PUT A PERSON ON TOP OF AN SRB -- THE THRUST OSCILLATION WILL KILL THEM!!  CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL NASA TO STOP THIS MADNESS BEFORE THEY KILL SOMEONE?"


That is out of line.
TO isn't quite that bad and also without Ares I, ATK loses future work

Offline Danny Dot

  • Rocket Scientist, NOT Retired
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2792
  • Houston, Texas
  • Liked: 17
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #14 on: 03/30/2009 04:35 am »

The reason I asked is because I wondered if anything of value could be salvaged from Ares I if it were cancelled. Could it be turned into a small cargo launcher? Or perhaps only a propellant launcher? Would using a denser hypergolic upper stage help reduce the TO problems? One of Ares I's more interesting nicknames is "the paint mixer". Propellant might not mind the mixing as much as humans or electronics.

My guess is that it would not be economical, maybe not even possible, but it would be nice to hear a professional opinion.

No, because there are two existing systems that already have the same capability and NASA doesn't need to duplicate them.  Also NASA can't develop Ares I for such task because NASA has to use commercial vehicles

Once again, I have to agree with Jim.  The stick was and is a black hole to consume time and money.  There is no use for it at all in our world.  The world has lots and lots of boosters to take things to LEO.  We do not need another one in this size class.  We could use a really big one to get us out of LEO, but that is a different story.


Danny Deger
Danny Deger

Offline Danny Dot

  • Rocket Scientist, NOT Retired
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2792
  • Houston, Texas
  • Liked: 17
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #15 on: 03/30/2009 04:40 am »
What I find most curious, is why ATK didn't seem to know...

Ross.

I have no doubt there were MANY at ATK screaming at the top of their lungs "YOU CAN'T PUT A PERSON ON TOP OF AN SRB -- THE THRUST OSCILLATION WILL KILL THEM!!  CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL NASA TO STOP THIS MADNESS BEFORE THEY KILL SOMEONE?"


That is out of line.
TO isn't quite that bad and also without Ares I, ATK loses future work

I stand corrected then.  I thought it was that bad.  I yield to your expertise in the matter.

Danny Deger

Edit: After an excellent nights sleep I realize I am very mad at myself for my failure as one of three "Crew Survival Engineers" at NASA to do my duty and think to myself for a second the vibration that shakes the crap out of the shuttle close to SRB sep might be in itself lethal if you put the crew on top of the SRB with nothing but an upper stage to dampen the vibration.  In retrospect all the information was staring me in the face and I failed to see it!!!  As a control/prop instructor I knew crew ability to read displays properly was effected by the high vibration.  I knew it was completely unreasonable for a crew member to effectively reach and throw a switch.  I had seen cockpit video during this phase that showed the seats shaking like crazy.  These seats are actually pretty stiff.  Yes I knew the SRBs had lots and lots of vibration. 

It was my job to look for such design flaws and I failed completely.  How did I let this monster go undetected into the program?

I was right in the middle of the birth of Ares I, a.k.a. the stick, a.k.a. "Scotty's Rocket" and my ONLY job was to look after the survival of the crew.  Yes, I am very upset with myself over this.

Danny Deger
« Last Edit: 03/30/2009 04:48 pm by Danny Dot »
Danny Deger

Offline gladiator1332

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2431
  • Fort Myers, FL
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 6
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #16 on: 03/30/2009 02:42 pm »
What I find most curious, is why ATK didn't seem to know...

Ross.

I have no doubt there were MANY at ATK screaming at the top of their lungs "YOU CAN'T PUT A PERSON ON TOP OF AN SRB -- THE THRUST OSCILLATION WILL KILL THEM!!  CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL NASA TO STOP THIS MADNESS BEFORE THEY KILL SOMEONE?"


That is out of line.
TO isn't quite that bad and also without Ares I, ATK loses future work

I stand corrected then.  I thought it was that bad.  I yield to your expertise in the matter.

Danny Deger

Edit: After an excellent nights sleep I realize I am very mad at myself for my failure as one of three "Crew Survival Engineers" at NASA to do my duty and think to myself for a second the vibration that shacks the crap out of the shuttle close to SRB sep might be in itself lethal if you put the crew on top ot the SRB with nothing but an upper stage to dampen the vibration.  In retrospect all the information was staring me in the face and I failed to see it!!!

It was my job to look for such design flaws and I failed completely.  How did I let this monster go undetected into the program?

I was right in the middle of the birth of Ares I, a.k.a. the stick, a.k.a. "Scotty's Rocket" and my ONLY job was to look after the survival of the crew.  Yes, I am very upset with myself over this.

Danny Deger

Don't beat yourself up. I think the Stick would have lived on no matter what.

Offline wannamoonbase

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5413
  • Denver, CO
    • U.S. Metric Association
  • Liked: 3112
  • Likes Given: 3862
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #17 on: 03/30/2009 04:04 pm »
... All of the various kludges being Rube Goldberged onto Ares 1 ....

LMAO

It's funny but sad at the same time, once you think of the billions of dollars and years spent on: Da' Stick

Regarding the thread topic, RD-180 and RP1 in the core of a STS derived vehicle is difficult.  Thrust member in the interstage has to be there and the tank sizes would change.  RP1 is very different from LH2. 

RP1 is better suited for boost phase and LH2 for high energy low weight applications.

It won't happen.
« Last Edit: 03/30/2009 04:05 pm by wannamoonbase »
Wildly optimistic prediction, Superheavy recovery on IFT-4 or IFT-5

Offline mmeijeri

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7772
  • Martijn Meijering
  • NL
  • Liked: 397
  • Likes Given: 822
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #18 on: 03/30/2009 04:39 pm »
Once again, I have to agree with Jim.  The stick was and is a black hole to consume time and money.  There is no use for it at all in our world.  The world has lots and lots of boosters to take things to LEO.  We do not need another one in this size class.  We could use a really big one to get us out of LEO, but that is a different story.

So, what would happen if you tried to auction off any remaining Ares I assets? No buyers at any price? Would you have to offer extra money to have it taken off your hands?
Pro-tip: you don't have to be a jerk if someone doesn't agree with your theories

Offline Antares

  • ABO^2
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5181
  • Done arguing with amateurs
  • Liked: 371
  • Likes Given: 228
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #19 on: 03/30/2009 04:52 pm »
There are no unique Ares 1 assets.  It's (almost?) all owned by the US Govt.  It's all heavily Eye-Tar restricted.  There's no viable (white) market for such a thing.  I don't think much of the flight hardware is unique to Ares 1 either.  It can be used on Shuttle.  Test articles and apparati are capital, and can either be used on other programs (apparati) or are too unique for another application (articles).

At some point it might be excessed just to keep from having to pay upkeep.  Otherwise, any proceeds would be a drop in the bucket.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37441
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21451
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #20 on: 03/30/2009 04:53 pm »
So,what would happen if you tried to auction off any remaining Ares I assets? No buyers at any price? Would you have to offer extra money to have it taken off your hands?

What assets?  J-2 isn't to PDR, neither is the upperstage.

Offline mmeijeri

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7772
  • Martijn Meijering
  • NL
  • Liked: 397
  • Likes Given: 822
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #21 on: 03/30/2009 05:19 pm »
What assets?  J-2 isn't to PDR, neither is the upperstage.

Maybe the 5 seg boosters? But from responses here, the best thing might be to think of it as a highly educational practical course in rocket design for the MSFC propulsion guys and girls.
Pro-tip: you don't have to be a jerk if someone doesn't agree with your theories

Offline Danny Dot

  • Rocket Scientist, NOT Retired
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2792
  • Houston, Texas
  • Liked: 17
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Ares V with RD-180
« Reply #22 on: 03/30/2009 06:11 pm »
snip

Don't beat yourself up. I think the Stick would have lived on no matter what.

Thanks for the kind words.

Certainly after it had gotten out of Scott's hands the stick had its own life.  But, I was very literally one of the first people he talked to about the stick.  He called me into his office and asked my opinion on the crew survival aspects of the stick.  He REALLY wanted my opinion.  I didn't sway him EELVs were as good.  I know when I last saw him he TRULY believed the stick would be he safest booster ever made. 

I can only imagine if Scott and I would have known the horror of literally being shaken to death by the vibration we both knew about.... 

I would really like to know if Scott's sudden departure from ESMD had anything to do with this design flaw in his system.  I know for certain he had and has enough integrity to have attempted to kill his own creation when he found out about such a problem.  I will certainly never know.  If anyone out there knows Scott, tell him Danny Deger wishes him the best  -- but I will not work for ATK at $50/hour to help them man rate the stick :-)

Danny Deger
Danny Deger

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1