Author Topic: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System  (Read 7204 times)

Offline Iggyz

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Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« on: 11/08/2022 08:47 am »
Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System -SPMS

The SPMS consists of two circular linear motors (fig. 1a), two vacuum cylinders with a friction-less inner-surface (fig. b). Each cylinder has a linear motor fitted over its total length. Each cylinder contains a aluminum shuttle (fig. 1c). The acceleration, deceleration and coasting sections of the linear motor should be dynamic / adjustable for more precise positioning and maneuvering (fig. 4). It gives more control over the distance the satellite travels and reduces the number of times the cylinders have to be rotated.

The linear motor sections on the right (fig. 1) of each cylinder simultaneously propel their aluminum shuttle to the left and the satellite moves to the right.

The momentum of the shuttles and satellite is the same and negate each other. Therefor, the satellite will stop moving to the right the moment the shuttles are intercepted by the linear motor sections at the left end of the cylinders (fig. 2).

Suppose the shuttles weigh 100 kg each and travel at 10 m/s, and the satellite weighs 10.000 kg, the satellite will move to the right at a speed of 0,2 m/s before it stops.

If each cylinder has a length of 21 meters the satellite will move to the right for just over 2 seconds and travel a total of 0,4 meter before the shuttle is stopped.

To restart the cycle the cylinders are rotated simultaneously. The top cylinder is turned 180 degrees counter-clockwise and the bottom cylinder is turned 180 degrees clockwise. (fig. 3). This is done to negate forces that might change the satellite’s position.

Can this work?

Offline edzieba

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #1 on: 11/08/2022 10:48 am »
Can this work?
No, for the exact same reasons as people have explained in the last 7 threads.

Offline Iggyz

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #2 on: 11/08/2022 01:51 pm »
Thank you edzieba.
I guess you are referring to rotating the cylinders?
If was afraid it wouldn't be possible to rotate them without changing the satellite's postion.

Offline deltaV

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #3 on: 11/09/2022 02:05 am »
Iggyz you appear to be trying to design a way for a satellite to move itself without releasing anything or reacting against any other object. That's not possible according to the laws of physics. You appear to be implying that the center of mass of your satellite/shuttle system moves despite being initially at rest, which implies it must have accelerated, but a corollary of the law of conservation of momentum is the center of mass of a closed system never accelerates.

Your specific error is assuming that when you rotate things in figure 3 the rest of the satellite will rotate without translating. The shuttles are accelerated towards the right and then towards the left and conservation of momentum implies that the rest of the satellite must accelerate to the left and then to the right.

Offline chazemz

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #4 on: 11/09/2022 07:26 am »
There are no laws of physics only theories of physics. Physics is a science, not a religion. It does not have commandments.

Offline Iggyz

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #5 on: 11/09/2022 09:56 am »
thanks deltaV for the feedback.

i am not assuming that the satellite will rotate when the cylinders are rotating

what i am hoping for is that the satellite will not rotate or change its position when the cylinders are rotating

do you think that is possible?

Offline chazemz

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #6 on: 11/09/2022 11:16 am »
Using known physics, it may sound poetic, but I agree with deltaV.
You have an inventive mind, keep it up.

Offline Iggyz

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #7 on: 11/09/2022 02:17 pm »
Thanks chazemz and deltaV.

I will try to explain my idea in a different way:

Suppose two astronauts are in a vacuum cylinder (which is at rest) and one throws a package to his colleague at the other side (fig. a).

Consequently the cylinder will start moving to the right.

The cylinder will continue to move to the right until the package is caught by the astronaut on the left side of the cylinder (fig. b).

The cylinder stops because the momentum of the cylinder is the same as the momentum of the package. The momentum of the package and cylinder cancel out.

The cylinder moved a certain distance to the right and will stay there. It will not move back to its starting position because the momentum of the package and cylinder canceled out. Basically the cylinder is back at rest again.

I hope this gives a better understanding of my idea.

Regarding my counter-rotating cylinders:

Anti-torque counter-rotating rotors prevent helicopters from spinning out of control. Why can’t my counter-rotating cylinders work on my satellite positioning maneuvering system?


Online DanClemmensen

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #8 on: 11/09/2022 02:38 pm »
Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System -SPMS

The SPMS consists of two circular linear motors (fig. 1a), two vacuum cylinders with a friction-less inner-surface (fig. b). Each cylinder has a linear motor fitted over its total length. Each cylinder contains a aluminum shuttle (fig. 1c). The acceleration, deceleration and coasting sections of the linear motor should be dynamic / adjustable for more precise positioning and maneuvering (fig. 4). It gives more control over the distance the satellite travels and reduces the number of times the cylinders have to be rotated.

The linear motor sections on the right (fig. 1) of each cylinder simultaneously propel their aluminum shuttle to the left and the satellite moves to the right.

The momentum of the shuttles and satellite is the same and negate each other. Therefor, the satellite will stop moving to the right the moment the shuttles are intercepted by the linear motor sections at the left end of the cylinders (fig. 2).

Suppose the shuttles weigh 100 kg each and travel at 10 m/s, and the satellite weighs 10.000 kg, the satellite will move to the right at a speed of 0,2 m/s before it stops.

If each cylinder has a length of 21 meters the satellite will move to the right for just over 2 seconds and travel a total of 0,4 meter before the shuttle is stopped.

To restart the cycle the cylinders are rotated simultaneously. The top cylinder is turned 180 degrees counter-clockwise and the bottom cylinder is turned 180 degrees clockwise. (fig. 3). This is done to negate forces that might change the satellite’s position.

Can this work?
No, this does not work, The general problem is that net movement would move the center of mass of the system as a whole, and this has never been observed in the world despite centuries of investigation.

So let's look at your diagram to see where the problem is. It occurs in step 3. The center of mass of each of the rings is not at the center of rotation, because the moving masses within the cylinders are both off to one side. Therefore, when you spin the rings by a half-turn, you are moving the masses back to the right and the rings must move to the left, putting them back where they started.

I suggest you purchase a cheap air hockey table (about $60 for the cheapest new one). Build a very small version of any of your proposed systems and place it on one of the pucks. Activate your mechanism and see what happens.

Offline Barley

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #9 on: 11/10/2022 02:02 am »
I suggest you purchase a cheap air hockey table (about $60 for the cheapest new one). Build a very small version of any of your proposed systems and place it on one of the pucks. Activate your mechanism and see what happens.

It is certainly possible to build various devices that will move the air hockey puck.  These will almost certainly take advantage of friction, air viscosity, or other small but not negligible effects.  Knowledge of these effects can be used to design such a device.  A determined tinkerer can easily stumble over them by trial and error.  Physics instruction needs take into account that there are non-spherical cows.

I applaud any serious experiments investigating conservation of momentum, but they are going to have to go to extreme efforts to rule out known effects, and the most likely result is to find additional mundane effects that come into play at greater levels of precision.  For example see the Pioneer anomaly

Online DanClemmensen

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #10 on: 11/10/2022 02:20 am »
I suggest you purchase a cheap air hockey table (about $60 for the cheapest new one). Build a very small version of any of your proposed systems and place it on one of the pucks. Activate your mechanism and see what happens.

It is certainly possible to build various devices that will move the air hockey puck.  These will almost certainly take advantage of friction, air viscosity, or other small but not negligible effects.  Knowledge of these effects can be used to design such a device.  A determined tinkerer can easily stumble over them by trial and error.  Physics instruction needs take into account that there are non-spherical cows.

I applaud any serious experiments investigating conservation of momentum, but they are going to have to go to extreme efforts to rule out known effects, and the most likely result is to find additional mundane effects that come into play at greater levels of precision.  For example see the Pioneer anomaly
In this case, our eager theorist is not proposing a subtle effect. This is different than the Woodward effect or other voodoo physics. If the mass of a ring and the moving mass are roughly the same, then the puck will move by an observable amount to the right during the first step. and will move by that same appreciable amount during the second step. More importantly, our theorist will be occupied designing an actual experiment and will therefore quit bothering us with stuff that ignores three centuries of observations. I was hoping that our theorist has enough intellectual honesty to actually design an experiment to test his hypothesis, and not design an experiment that cheats and uses secondary effects.

Offline chazemz

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #11 on: 11/10/2022 09:59 am »
Prototypes are expensive in both time and money. In this instance I would advise against such an idea. If you do decide to go down the air hockey table route, if you are moving mass around this will cause the puck to tilt slightly. Movement due to airflow must be taken into account. When you are challenging the status quo, you will always bother someone.

Offline Iggyz

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #12 on: 11/10/2022 01:12 pm »
Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System -SPMS

The SPMS consists of two circular linear motors (fig. 1a), two vacuum cylinders with a friction-less inner-surface (fig. b). Each cylinder has a linear motor fitted over its total length. Each cylinder contains a aluminum shuttle (fig. 1c). The acceleration, deceleration and coasting sections of the linear motor should be dynamic / adjustable for more precise positioning and maneuvering (fig. 4). It gives more control over the distance the satellite travels and reduces the number of times the cylinders have to be rotated.

The linear motor sections on the right (fig. 1) of each cylinder simultaneously propel their aluminum shuttle to the left and the satellite moves to the right.

The momentum of the shuttles and satellite is the same and negate each other. Therefor, the satellite will stop moving to the right the moment the shuttles are intercepted by the linear motor sections at the left end of the cylinders (fig. 2).

Suppose the shuttles weigh 100 kg each and travel at 10 m/s, and the satellite weighs 10.000 kg, the satellite will move to the right at a speed of 0,2 m/s before it stops.

If each cylinder has a length of 21 meters the satellite will move to the right for just over 2 seconds and travel a total of 0,4 meter before the shuttle is stopped.

To restart the cycle the cylinders are rotated simultaneously. The top cylinder is turned 180 degrees counter-clockwise and the bottom cylinder is turned 180 degrees clockwise. (fig. 3). This is done to negate forces that might change the satellite’s position.

Can this work?
No, this does not work, The general problem is that net movement would move the center of mass of the system as a whole, and this has never been observed in the world despite centuries of investigation.

So let's look at your diagram to see where the problem is. It occurs in step 3. The center of mass of each of the rings is not at the center of rotation, because the moving masses within the cylinders are both off to one side. Therefore, when you spin the rings by a half-turn, you are moving the masses back to the right and the rings must move to the left, putting them back where they started.

I suggest you purchase a cheap air hockey table (about $60 for the cheapest new one). Build a very small version of any of your proposed systems and place it on one of the pucks. Activate your mechanism and see what happens.
Do you mean the system will move back to its starting point?

Thank you for the air hockey table suggestion but any prototype will probably be to heavy to test on an air hockey table.

Offline chazemz

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #13 on: 11/10/2022 02:19 pm »
People are trying in a very decent manner to explain to you what an oscillating thruster is. Many such devices have been proposed. Do a quick search and see whether any resemble your description

Offline Iggyz

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #14 on: 11/10/2022 02:34 pm »
People are trying in a very decent manner to explain to you what an oscillating thruster is. Many such devices have been proposed. Do a quick search and see whether any resemble your description
Thank you. Can you please post a few links. I did a quick search but only came across plasma thrusters.

Offline Iggyz

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #15 on: 11/10/2022 02:37 pm »
Something else I would like to point out.

Basically there are two things that can happen if the shuttles are intercepted on the left side by the linear motors (fig. 2).

1. The system comes to a halt because the momentum of the shuttles and cylinders (+ the rest of the system) are the same and negate each other

2. The system doesn’t stop and will move either to the left or right

If it is number two, the system will continue to move to the left or right almost indefinitely because there is no air resistance and friction in space.

It will only stop if it is hit by a meteorite, spaceship or gets caught by the gravitational field of a planet.

Wouldn’t that be an even graver violation of Newton’s third than number 1?

Online DanClemmensen

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #16 on: 11/10/2022 02:42 pm »

To restart the cycle the cylinders are rotated simultaneously. The top cylinder is turned 180 degrees counter-clockwise and the bottom cylinder is turned 180 degrees clockwise. (fig. 3). This is done to negate forces that might change the satellite’s position.

Can this work?
No, this does not work, The general problem is that net movement would move the center of mass of the system as a whole, and this has never been observed in the world despite centuries of investigation.

So let's look at your diagram to see where the problem is. It occurs in step 3. The center of mass of each of the rings is not at the center of rotation, because the moving masses within the cylinders are both off to one side. Therefore, when you spin the rings by a half-turn, you are moving the masses back to the right and the rings must move to the left, putting them back where they started.

I suggest you purchase a cheap air hockey table (about $60 for the cheapest new one). Build a very small version of any of your proposed systems and place it on one of the pucks. Activate your mechanism and see what happens.
Do you mean the system will move back to its starting point?

Yes. The system moves back exactly to its starting point.

Offline Jim

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #17 on: 11/10/2022 02:49 pm »

It will only stop if it is hit by a meteorite, spaceship or gets caught by the gravitational field of a planet.

Wouldn’t that be an even graver violation of Newton’s third than number 1?


no, because it is an external force.

you just need to stop looking for free energy.
« Last Edit: 11/10/2022 02:52 pm by Jim »

Offline Jim

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #18 on: 11/10/2022 02:56 pm »
Thank you for the air hockey table suggestion but any prototype will probably be to heavy to test on an air hockey table.

No, it would not be "too heavy".  Circles can be a meter or so.

Offline Jim

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Re: Satellite Positioning And Maneuvering System
« Reply #19 on: 11/10/2022 03:13 pm »
Here is your problem.

The cylinders do not rotate around the geometric center as depicted here.  The arrows are reference points.
« Last Edit: 11/10/2022 03:14 pm by Jim »

 

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